PMU 2007 remix; why does JLB sound off-pitch?

[slycordinator]

Well, if MOST theaters did it wrong, then what's the difference, when the average movie theater experience would have been inferior to a Blu-Ray anyway? Which means MOST people would have experienced those movies in this less-than-optimal way.

You were arguing that the blu-ray with all the tweaks they do is always an improvement over the original source. I was pointing out that in some aspects, this isn't true.

In any case, all that stuff you said has virtually nothing to do with my original point.

But clearly as you can see the Terminator remaster looks so much better than the original issue.

In some ways. In others, it's worse. I like the color better, but I can tell that some of the DNR changed the texture on faces. Though overall it's an improvement over the original blu-ray.

My point is that remixing/remastering music albums is the same thing. It can improve them and make them more enjoyable. Remastering the Terminator movie doesn't make it any less of a 1980's movie. So remastering, let's say, Images and Words wouldn't make it any less of a 1992 album, just make it sound better.

1) Remember that in music remixing and remastering are different things, although that's a minor point.
2) I agree that remixing can improve things. FFS, I said I like the remixes of that DP album better than the original mixes. But I disagree with the belief that it can only improve things and the implication that it improves things in every way.

Another example would be the covers that DT did for BCSL. Frankly, due to the quality of the recording and the mixing, I enjoy all of those covers vastly more than the originals. I like the songs for their actual compositions. I don't care if Larks' Tongues in Aspic doesn't have that 1970s sound anymore, the DT version is more crisp and clean, and I'd rather listen to that than the original King Crimson version.

I can safely say I prefer the original Stargazer to the cover. But there's no accounting for taste.

[rumborak]

I don't mind the remixes apart from one thing in TTT that really gets my goat... The little bass break at 5:10 (where it does that slide up to the diminished chord and the other instruments cut out) that they decided to put drums over. WHY?! The breaks and little twists and turns are what make that section so great for me, then the drums just plow over the top of it with this "my first drum beat" sounding rhythm. When I first heard that I had to play it back a few times to make sure I wasn't hearing things...

Yeah, that bothered me too. I always look forward to that bass snippet in the song.

[TheGreatPretender]

You were arguing that the blu-ray with all the tweaks they do is always an improvement over the original source. I was pointing out that in some aspects, this isn't true.

Well, obviously not the original source. The original source is 4k super HD film, obviously Blu-Ray isn't better than that.
I was saying that Blu-Ray quality is better than the way people experienced those movies back in the day. And even if some people saw those movies at theaters that did it right, Blu-Ray is still better than the previous mainstream home video versions, such as VHS and DVD. So in most cases, people who experienced those movies a certain way in the 80's and 90's, will get a very different experience with Blu-Ray on an HDTV. Does that make it less of an experience, because that 'old school' feel of a VCR stream is gone?

And yes, I have met people who say they can only watch the original Nightmare On Elm Street on VHS, and don't want to see it in good quality. But I say get with the times.

I can safely say I prefer the original Stargazer to the cover. But there's no accounting for taste.

That is true, but either way, at least in that department, we have a choice.

[KevShmev]

I don't mind the remixes apart from one thing in TTT that really gets my goat... The little bass break at 5:10 (where it does that slide up to the diminished chord and the other instruments cut out) that they decided to put drums over. WHY?! The breaks and little twists and turns are what make that section so great for me, then the drums just plow over the top of it with this "my first drum beat" sounding rhythm. When I first heard that I had to play it back a few times to make sure I wasn't hearing things...

Yeah, that bothered me too. I always look forward to that bass snippet in the song.

Wow. I had forgotten what the remix sounded like, but having listened to it again just now, a drum fill drowning on the bass there was an atrocious idea.  The drum fill sounding as out of place as it does makes it even worse. 

[slycordinator]

Well, obviously not the original source. The original source is 4k super HD film, obviously Blu-Ray isn't better than that.

Btw, film isn't 4K or HD. Those are concepts of the number of pixels a digital image, projector, camera, imager, etc contain or can resolve.

I was saying that Blu-Ray quality is better than the way people experienced those movies back in the day.

See, I was reading it as when you said "Doing X technique always improves the image" as not meaning "improves it over the DVD/VHS" but that it improves over the original source. Also, you gotta remember that a lot of the improvement you get comes not from the clean-up techniques used but from the improved resolution of the scanners.

And yes, I have met people who say they can only watch the original Nightmare On Elm Street on VHS, and don't want to see it in good quality. But I say get with the times.

Considering how it's popular now to make digital pics look like they were on a polaroid (through stuff like instagram), I'm betting this kind of thing won't be going away.

[TheGreatPretender]

See, I was reading it as when you said "Doing X technique always improves the image" as not meaning "improves it over the DVD/VHS" but that it improves over the original source. Also, you gotta remember that a lot of the improvement you get comes not from the clean-up techniques used but from the improved resolution of the scanners.

Well, depending on the technique. Color correcting and things like that can improve it. But that's a matter of taste.

Considering how it's popular now to make digital pics look like they were on a polaroid (through stuff like instagram), I'm betting this kind of thing won't be going away.

That's still different. Tons of my friends use instagram, but they still ultimately prefer Blu-Ray quality over VHS.

[hefdaddy42]

Why are we even discussing VHS?  The original source of DVDs and Blu-Rays are not old VHS tapes, but the original films.  Am I missing something?

[7StringedBeast]

Why are we even discussing VHS?  The original source of DVDs and Blu-Rays are not old VHS tapes, but the original films.  Am I missing something?

No, because you are correct.

[TheGreatPretender]

Why are we even discussing VHS?  The original source of DVDs and Blu-Rays are not old VHS tapes, but the original films.  Am I missing something?

Yeah, but we're discussing remastering and remixing and such. So the original source of a remastered song wouldn't be the first edition of the album, it would ideally be the studio recordings.

The point of the discussion is that just because people experienced it a certain way a long time ago (whether it's Vinyl, VHS, etc.) doesn't mean that people will stop liking the product just because it looks/sounds better now, and isn't presented exactly the way those people were used to.

[rumborak]

Wow. I had forgotten what the remix sounded like, but having listened to it again just now, a drum fill drowning on the bass there was an atrocious idea.  The drum fill sounding as out of place as it does makes it even worse.

I just listened to both mixes one after the other, and I had a bit of an acoustic epiphany. I first listened to the remix, and while I listened to it I thought "man, I guess I haven't listened to this album in quite a while. This is one hell of a rushed song." But when I then listened to the original mix, I didn't have that impression at all.
I think what happens is that Prater did exactly what the song, or even the whole album, needed: space. Every member of the band is sooo over-busy that if everything got equal share in the song, it would be a mess with way too much going on, making the song feel rushed. So, Prater pulled stuff out of the mix to give it space. MP + Shirley brought all that stuff back in (including waaaaay too much drums). causing it to be rushed.

[ZirconBlue]

Wow. I had forgotten what the remix sounded like, but having listened to it again just now, a drum fill drowning on the bass there was an atrocious idea.  The drum fill sounding as out of place as it does makes it even worse.

I just listened to both mixes one after the other, and I had a bit of an acoustic epiphany. I first listened to the remix, and while I listened to it I thought "man, I guess I haven't listened to this album in quite a while. This is one hell of a rushed song." But when I then listened to the original mix, I didn't have that impression at all.
I think what happens is that Prater did exactly what the song, or even the whole album, needed: space. Every member of the band is sooo over-busy that if everything got equal share in the song, it would be a mess with way too much going on, making the song feel rushed. So, Prater pulled stuff out of the mix to give it space. MP + Shirley brought all that stuff back in (including waaaaay too much drums). causing it to be rushed.

Personally, I like to hear all the parts of a song.

[KevShmev]

Wow. I had forgotten what the remix sounded like, but having listened to it again just now, a drum fill drowning on the bass there was an atrocious idea.  The drum fill sounding as out of place as it does makes it even worse.

I just listened to both mixes one after the other, and I had a bit of an acoustic epiphany. I first listened to the remix, and while I listened to it I thought "man, I guess I haven't listened to this album in quite a while. This is one hell of a rushed song." But when I then listened to the original mix, I didn't have that impression at all.
I think what happens is that Prater did exactly what the song, or even the whole album, needed: space. Every member of the band is sooo over-busy that if everything got equal share in the song, it would be a mess with way too much going on, making the song feel rushed. So, Prater pulled stuff out of the mix to give it space. MP + Shirley brought all that stuff back in (including waaaaay too much drums). causing it to be rushed.

Totally agreed. 

Personally, I like to hear all the parts of a song.

Okay, but cranking every instrument to the max the whole time not only robs the song of dynamics, but it actually makes it impossible for the best parts of the song to stand out since everything ends up just mashed together at full tilt.

[hefdaddy42]

Wow. I had forgotten what the remix sounded like, but having listened to it again just now, a drum fill drowning on the bass there was an atrocious idea.  The drum fill sounding as out of place as it does makes it even worse.

I just listened to both mixes one after the other, and I had a bit of an acoustic epiphany. I first listened to the remix, and while I listened to it I thought "man, I guess I haven't listened to this album in quite a while. This is one hell of a rushed song." But when I then listened to the original mix, I didn't have that impression at all.
I think what happens is that Prater did exactly what the song, or even the whole album, needed: space. Every member of the band is sooo over-busy that if everything got equal share in the song, it would be a mess with way too much going on, making the song feel rushed. So, Prater pulled stuff out of the mix to give it space. MP + Shirley brought all that stuff back in (including waaaaay too much drums). causing it to be rushed.

Word.

[TheGreatPretender]

Okay, but cranking every instrument to the max the whole time not only robs the song of dynamics, but it actually makes it impossible for the best parts of the song to stand out since everything ends up just mashed together at full tilt.

While that's true in theory, and can apply to many bands, I feel like the DT remixes still had enough dynamics, and still manage to sound great in spite of the alterations.

[hefdaddy42]

Well, great.

But I don't feel that way, and neither do many others (obviously).

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, great.

But I don't feel that way, and neither do many others (obviously).

Then don't listen to it.

[slycordinator]

Well, great.

But I don't feel that way, and neither do many others (obviously).

Then don't listen to it.

hef: I don't like this remix because of X, Y, Z, and W.
TGP: If you feel that way, don't listen to it.
hef: I don't listen to it, because I hated it. I only re-listened to it to see if I still felt that way for this discussion.
[/hypothetical]

I mean, seriously this kind of response is like writing to the guy who thought your favorite movie sucked and saying "Don't watch it" or seeing a bad restaurant review and saying "Don't eat there." Or if you went to the doctor, thought he did a bad job on your case, and he responded with "Don't get treated by me, then!"

[rumborak]

The thing I wonder is, I mean, I'm presuming the band members listened to the remixes. I can't imagine JM having been a happy camper about such a prominent part featuring him being buried under such a meaningless and unnecessary drum part.

[King Postwhore]

The thing I wonder is, I mean, I'm presuming the band members listened to the remixes. I can't imagine JM having been a happy camper about such a prominent part featuring him being buried under such a meaningless and unnecessary drum part.

Rumbo, then again before ADTOE, he "was" buried in the mix and not a peep out of him.   So I'm not surprised at all.

[BlobVanDam]

The thing I wonder is, I mean, I'm presuming the band members listened to the remixes. I can't imagine JM having been a happy camper about such a prominent part featuring him being buried under such a meaningless and unnecessary drum part.

They're not DTF, so I'm guessing they don't overreact to every little thing.

[hefdaddy42]

The thing I wonder is, I mean, I'm presuming the band members listened to the remixes. I can't imagine JM having been a happy camper about such a prominent part featuring him being buried under such a meaningless and unnecessary drum part.

Well, even if they had listened to it, I doubt they got much of a vote.