Author Topic: All things Battlestar Galactica (Read 168108 times)

ReaPsTA · « **Reply #735 on:** October 08, 2012, 04:32:40 PM »

Quote from: Dimitrius on October 08, 2012, 03:41:43 PM

Black Market is, IMO, the worst episode of the series.

Black Market is likable and has some good moment. The Woman King is basically unwatchable.

Quote from: bosk1 on October 08, 2012, 01:36:44 PM

Quote from: ReaPsTA on October 08, 2012, 11:33:52 AM
What did you think of Black Market?

Seemed a bit half-baked in terms of setting up a lot of the character motivations for what happened. But, overall, despite some execution flaws, I liked it and thought it was some intereseting social commentary. And despite some of the underdevelopment, it overall did advance the ball somewhat in terms of both Lee's and Zarek's character development.

In the commentary for the episode, Ron Moore basically trashes it and calls it a failure. I don't remember his explanation for why it didn't come together right. I think it had something to do with it trying to be too many things.

IMO - The emotional center of the episode doesn't come together right. Lee's emotion doesn't feel genuine so much as it feels self-righteous. THis is fine, because that's kind of his character. But the show doesn't treat it that way. The implicit message feels like self-righteous = good. This makes it impossible to buy into anything.

Love him just straight up shooting Phelan though.

Dimitrius · « **Reply #736 on:** October 08, 2012, 04:56:08 PM »

Quote from: ReaPsTA on October 08, 2012, 04:32:40 PM

Quote from: Dimitrius on October 08, 2012, 03:41:43 PM
Black Market is, IMO, the worst episode of the series.

Black Market is likable and has some good moment. The Woman King is basically unwatchable.

Ah! That one is horrible as well!

The King in Crimson · « **Reply #737 on:** October 08, 2012, 06:46:55 PM »

Black Market is pretty bad, but there are a few upcoming episodes that may equal or surpass it in stinkiness.

bosk1 · « **Reply #738 on:** October 08, 2012, 06:49:10 PM »

Quote from: The King in Crimson on October 08, 2012, 06:46:55 PM

Black Market is pretty bad

No, it's really not.

The King in Crimson · « **Reply #739 on:** October 08, 2012, 06:52:33 PM »

I struggle to find anything redeeming about that episode.

bosk1 · « **Reply #740 on:** October 08, 2012, 06:56:24 PM »

It's okay. We all have personal shortcomings.

Perpetual Change · « **Reply #741 on:** October 08, 2012, 06:59:25 PM »

I really like Black Market. Lee gets shit for being written inconsistently. But I always thought that was a defining part of his character. Whereas his Dad is a cool and collected natural leader, Lee's just all over the place trying to find himself in Adama's shadow. He is a loose cannon because he struggles to distinguish himself from pop.

The King in Crimson · « **Reply #742 on:** October 08, 2012, 07:00:01 PM »

Quote from: bosk1 on October 08, 2012, 06:56:24 PM

It's okay. We all have personal shortcomings.

bosk1 · « **Reply #743 on:** October 08, 2012, 07:14:23 PM »

Quote from: Perpetual Change on October 08, 2012, 06:59:25 PM

I really like Black Market. Lee gets shit for being written inconsistently. But I always thought that was a defining part of his character. Whereas his Dad is a cool and collected natural leader, Lee's just all over the place trying to find himself in Adama's shadow. He is a loose cannon because he struggles to distinguish himself from pop.

I agree.

Quote from: The King in Crimson on October 08, 2012, 07:00:01 PM

Quote from: bosk1 on October 08, 2012, 06:56:24 PM
It's okay. We all have personal shortcomings.

GuineaPig · « **Reply #744 on:** October 09, 2012, 02:45:43 AM »

"Black Market" is pretty mediocre. There are a couple of very poor choices, both character-wise and plot-wise, and it suffers from the curse of most of the "in the fleet" episodes (in that the producers seemed compelled to introduce action, no matter what the content of the episode was).

But it's not nearly as bad as "The Woman King," which is moronic, condescendingly moralizing, lazy, and completes a certain character's descent into the position of being the unquestionably worst character in the show.

yorost · « **Reply #745 on:** October 09, 2012, 07:53:12 AM »

Black Market and The Woman King were both ok if you're willing to ignore character shifts that felt uncomfortably out of place. With a highly serial format these types of episodes just don't work that well to begin with, but had this been an episodic based show like Star Trek it would have been ok. I tend to view these episodes, and others, as the show-runners pasts with Star Trek showing.

Perpetual Change · « **Reply #746 on:** October 09, 2012, 08:25:41 AM »

What was out-of-place about Black Market?

People keep repeating how "out of character" those episodes are. How so?

ReaPsTA · « **Reply #747 on:** October 09, 2012, 08:47:37 AM »

Something about Lee seeing a prostitute feels out of place. If he is seeing a prostitute, he doesn't offer them any outside help. The shame would be too powerful.

I'm not sure I buy Tigh participating in the Black Market. Tigh does many things he shouldn't do. The Black Market doesn't feel like one of them.

From a plot perspective - introducing the Black Market so quickly feels like it's sudden. If this group has the power to kill the CO of the Pegasus then... why didn't we know about them earlier?

From a conceptual standpoint, Ron Moore basically explains it perfectly (link):

Quote

The best thing in the whole show, in my personal opinion, is the end. Is that Lee shoots him, which was an early idea in the whole episode that you get to that classic moment where Walker, Texas Ranger, or fill in the blank, Sonny Crockett, is pointing the gun at the bad guy and the bad guy says, "You won't shoot me." And, lo and behold, they always find an excuse for the ba- for the good guy to shoot the bad guy.

The bad guy goes for the gun, the bad guy makes a move, there's some double cross and then you always get the satisfaction, the visceral bloodlust of the audience demanding that the bad guy get shot, but never quite being brave enough to just have the hero shoot the bad guy.

Which brings its own set of moral and ethical issues, and if you're gonna- it's sort of like the convention of that method of- that particular story has always been, "The good guy won't shoot the bad guy unless the bad guy threatens him in some way." But it's a complete manipulation 'cause the audience's only interest is to see the bad guy get shot.

But the audience wants to have it both ways. The audience sort of wants to be satisfied and have their bloodlust satisfied in that, "Well, thank God, I got to saw- see Walker, Texas Ranger, shoot this guy, but his hands are clean 'cause the bad guy kinda reached for a gun or he kinda flinched or he double crossed him, and that's why the good guy's still good." And I was interested in subverting that and, "Ok. Let's- you want your bloodlust satisfied? Fine. Hero's gonna shoot the bad guy, but guess what? The hero's just gonna shoot him. He's just gonna execute him. And how do you feel about that?"

'Cause again, that's the territory I'm more interested in, in the show, is presenting more complicated moral dilemmas to the audience. To not giving them the pure, clean comfort of, "Hero shoots bad guy, 'cause bad guy did something bad." But making more complex where, "Thank God. I really wanted hero to shoot bad guy, but I'm not quite entirely comfortable with the way it happened, and how do I feel about that?" That's territory I think the show is better equipped to explore and the show fires on all cylinders when it does go into that territory.

Here, I think the problem is that beyond that simple... what's the word I'm looking for?- beyond the sort of diagrammed explication of the conflict and why it works and doesn't work, that I just outlined, about hero- hero, villain and audience expectation, etc., etc. But beyond the simple construction of that as an intellectual exercise, I don't know that we've delivered on the central premise here, which is that Bill Duke's question- Bill Duke's statement at the head of the show, "You won't shoot me. You're not like me." When Lee shoots him, you should feel that he shoots him because, "Oh my God! I'm realizing that he is like Bill Duke and oh! Woah! I'm like shocked. And that's- I don't know how I feel about Lee, but I'm really surprised because he's more like Bill Duke than I thought." I don't think the show really says that. I don't think we've accomplished that mission. And that should have been the mission here, is if you're going to predicate a whole show on this concept, about this central confrontation it should pay off that idea.

Personal opinion - Throwing in child prostitutes was realistic, but also a huge mistake. The moment you do that, the Black Market and the people who run it are completely indefensible from a moral stand point. If Lee tortured Phelan to death and then pissed in his corpse, no one would have felt Lee was out of line.

yorost · « **Reply #748 on:** October 09, 2012, 08:56:16 AM »

Quote from: Perpetual Change on October 09, 2012, 08:25:41 AM

What was out-of-place about Black Market?

People keep repeating how "out of character" those episodes are. How so?

Lee's all of a sudden wanting a serious relationship with a prostitute came out of nowhere. With a serial show this really should have been set up better, it's a device suited for an episodic show as it is. The whole Dee, Billy, Lee thing was irksome to me. Billy and Dee were cast as a symbol of hope but now they're making both of them almost pathetic. Both kind of seemed rewritten at this point in the show, but particularly Dee. I don't recall any notion of a powerful black market prior to this episode, yet how many major names were involved in it? The episode made it seem like a crime syndicate was a powerful and influential force in the fleet, where have they been? It isn't like the show is still setting up the scenario, it's the end of the second season.

Dimitrius · « **Reply #749 on:** October 09, 2012, 09:09:58 AM »

^ That perfectly sums up why I think Black Market is one of the worst episodes of the series.

bosk1 · « **Reply #750 on:** October 09, 2012, 09:12:05 AM »

Quote from: ReaPsTA on October 09, 2012, 08:47:37 AM

Something about Lee seeing a prostitute feels out of place. If he is seeing a prostitute, he doesn't offer them any outside help. The shame would be too powerful.

Eh, kind of, but not really. Lee is always so conflicted about everything that this doesn't really come as a surprise--especially given that he is unable to see the relationship for what it truly is: Just a guy seeing a prostitute. He sees it as a relationship, which it isn't. And that naivete is part of what drives the episode.

Quote from: ReaPsTA on October 09, 2012, 08:47:37 AM

I'm not sure I buy Tigh participating in the Black Market. Tigh does many things he shouldn't do. The Black Market doesn't feel like one of them.

Really? I thought that was one thing that definitely was NOT out of place. When Lee went to him, my reaction was, "Oh, that makes sense. Of all people, OF COURSE this guy and/or his wife are involved in the black market."

Quote from: ReaPsTA on October 09, 2012, 08:47:37 AM

From a plot perspective - introducing the Black Market so quickly feels like it's sudden. If this group has the power to kill the CO of the Pegasus then... why didn't we know about them earlier?

Yeah, a little. But it was presented as a long-term problem that was slowly growing until it finally got on the Higher-Ups' radar. I thought that was fine.

Quote from: ReaPsTA on October 09, 2012, 08:47:37 AM

From a conceptual standpoint, Ron Moore basically explains it perfectly

I like that explanation.

bosk1 · « **Reply #751 on:** October 09, 2012, 09:13:42 AM »

Quote from: yorost on October 09, 2012, 08:56:16 AM

Quote from: Perpetual Change on October 09, 2012, 08:25:41 AM
What was out-of-place about Black Market?

People keep repeating how "out of character" those episodes are. How so?
Lee's all of a sudden wanting a serious relationship with a prostitute came out of nowhere. With a serial show this really should have been set up better, it's a device suited for an episodic show as it is. The whole Dee, Billy, Lee thing was irksome to me. Billy and Dee were cast as a symbol of hope but now they're making both of them almost pathetic. Both kind of seemed rewritten at this point in the show, but particularly Dee.

VERY good point. Since they are more or less the 3rd or 4th tier storyline going on in that episode, I had forgotten about them. But you are absolutely right. That was stupid.

Perpetual Change · « **Reply #752 on:** October 09, 2012, 09:34:17 AM »

Quote from: bosk1 on October 09, 2012, 09:12:05 AM

And that naivete is part of what drives the episode.

And what pretty much defines Lee as a character. I liked it.

bosk1 · « **Reply #753 on:** October 09, 2012, 09:41:03 AM »

Same. I find that Lee is never quite what I want him to be or expect him to be. And while this is frustrating and makes me dislike him, it makes me like the show as a whole.

Perpetual Change · « **Reply #754 on:** October 09, 2012, 10:12:59 AM »

I like him. He's kinda a lost soul, with no particular identity. And he's competent in everything he does, so he's pulled in all different directions who know well that'd he be an asset to their cause. His lack of confidence in himself (probably as a result of being uncertain of who he actually is) causes him to take all sorts of extreme measures to "prove" that he is whatever role he's currently playing. But you always know that's not the real Lee. I'm not sure the real Lee can find himself aboard the Galactica, in the middle of an intergalactic war that threatens the existence of humanity. Poor Lee... haha.

ariich · « **Reply #755 on:** October 09, 2012, 01:01:54 PM »

Quote from: Perpetual Change on October 09, 2012, 09:34:17 AM

Quote from: bosk1 on October 09, 2012, 09:12:05 AM
And that naivete is part of what drives the episode.

And what pretty much defines Lee as a character. I liked it.

This exactly.

Black Market has some flaws, but I don't agree that it's out of character.

bosk1 · « **Reply #756 on:** October 11, 2012, 09:22:03 AM »

Sacrifice: Interesting writing; not so interesting execution. I mean, it is cool that the audience was really made to grapple with the issue of how far to trust Sharon. But, overall, it wasn't a great episode. Much respect lost for Dee and Lee. Billy...

yorost · « **Reply #757 on:** October 11, 2012, 09:38:49 AM »

Yup, Dee, Lee, and Billy represent one of my biggest complaints of the series. Fine, they decided to kill off a character that was both popular and they wanted to keep in the series, but they did it terribly. They almost retroactively wrecked a great back burner plot line (Billy & Dee), turned Dee from an easily liked character to one that never could recover a positive image, and had to make Billy look sort of sad before offing him. All because Billy's actor wouldn't sign a long term contract.

Jaq · « **Reply #758 on:** October 11, 2012, 02:13:17 PM »

Black Market was the worst episode of the series until The Woman King came along, and that took the title hands down, running away. Black Market, at least, I can see what they were getting at. The Woman King just sucks.

bosk1 · « **Reply #759 on:** October 11, 2012, 02:33:57 PM »

I cannot tell you how tempted I am to read the episode summary of that episode after all the crap talked about it now.

GuineaPig · « **Reply #760 on:** October 11, 2012, 02:37:17 PM »

It's not the concept of the episode that's awful, it's the execution.

bosk1 · « **Reply #761 on:** October 11, 2012, 02:44:09 PM »

I'm just Jonesing for another Cylon model reveal.

DebraKadabra · « **Reply #762 on:** October 11, 2012, 07:25:30 PM »

Ugh - IMO, Dee is one of the most useless characters on the show. Never did like her.

Adami · « **Reply #763 on:** October 11, 2012, 07:34:05 PM »

Quote from: DebraKadabra on October 11, 2012, 07:25:30 PM

Ugh - IMO, Dee is one of the most useless characters on the show. Never did like her.

She was damn cute.

And she was responsible for, in my opinion, one of the most shocking and sad moments in the show.

DebraKadabra · « **Reply #764 on:** October 11, 2012, 08:37:12 PM »

More like good riddance if you ask me.

Adami · « **Reply #765 on:** October 11, 2012, 08:42:15 PM »

Quote from: DebraKadabra on October 11, 2012, 08:37:12 PM

More like good riddance if you ask me.

WELL I DIDN'T ASK YOU NOW DID I?!?

DebraKadabra · « **Reply #766 on:** October 11, 2012, 08:48:51 PM »

Nope. Couldn't care less though.

Adami · « **Reply #767 on:** October 11, 2012, 09:01:50 PM »

Quote from: DebraKadabra on October 11, 2012, 08:48:51 PM

Nope. Couldn't care less though.

I've done some calculations. Turns out you can care 6% less.

DebraKadabra · « **Reply #768 on:** October 11, 2012, 09:04:13 PM »

No, that's if I'd said I COULD care less. COULDN'T care less means that I can't be in the negative for caring below zero.

Adami · « **Reply #769 on:** October 11, 2012, 09:17:03 PM »

Quote from: DebraKadabra on October 11, 2012, 09:04:13 PM

No, that's if I'd said I COULD care less. COULDN'T care less means that I can't be in the negative for caring below zero.

I know. I was contradicting you.

It seems my humor isn't for you. Carry on.

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Author Topic: All things Battlestar Galactica (Read 168108 times)