All things Battlestar Galactica

[ReaPsTA]

I think what GP is trying to say is that even though characters early on in the show always believed in destiny, the show didn't make it explicit that this was going on until later.

[yorost]

Which is one natural progression for the theme.  I think GP wishes the characters had been wrong (or to never answer), but the writers made them right.  Roslin always seemed to have a destiny.  Starbuck was given some funny undertones early on, too, wasn't she?  Just imagine where Baltar would be without Imaginary Six.  Certainly some pretty odd things were going on early in the series.

[Perpetual Change]

Which is one natural progression for the theme.  I think GP wishes the characters had been wrong (or to never answer), but the writers made them right.  Roslin always seemed to have a destiny.  Starbuck was given some funny undertones early on, too, wasn't she?  Just imagine where Baltar would be without Imaginary Six.  Certainly some pretty odd things were going on early in the series.

Yeah. I don't know how you can watch Baltar through the series and not realize early on that he's being moved by a destiny, especially after the season one finale, when it becomes really clear that he's not just falling victim to some mental problem or Cylon plot.

[GuineaPig]

Which is one natural progression for the theme.  I think GP wishes the characters had been wrong (or to never answer), but the writers made them right.  Roslin always seemed to have a destiny.  Starbuck was given some funny undertones early on, too, wasn't she?  Just imagine where Baltar would be without Imaginary Six.  Certainly some pretty odd things were going on early in the series.

Yeah. I don't know how you can watch Baltar through the series and not realize early on that he's being moved by a destiny, especially after the season one finale, when it becomes really clear that he's not just falling victim to some mental problem or Cylon plot.

You're letting hindsight affect things.  At the time of the writing and airing of those episodes, the writers were not sure of Baltar's condition, and really had not developed many ideas about what the Opera House would represent.  Hell, it doesn't get picked up again until past the midway point of season three.

[Perpetual Change]

You're letting hindsight affect things.  At the time of the writing and airing of those episodes, the writers were not sure of Baltar's condition, and really had not developed many ideas about what the Opera House would represent.  Hell, it doesn't get picked up again until past the midway point of season three.

No, I'm not. I felt that all along. In fact, after season one, I had a feeling that the show was going to be way more mystical than it wound up being. You get your wishes for what the show was supposed to be confused with reality.

[hefdaddy42]

Hey, guys.  I don't follow this show at ALL, but I ran across this and thought it might be of some interest to those of you who do.

Executive Producer David Eick and star Luke Pasqualino Share How BATTLESTAR GALACTICA: BLOOD & CHROME Was Brought to Life

[GuineaPig]

You're letting hindsight affect things.  At the time of the writing and airing of those episodes, the writers were not sure of Baltar's condition, and really had not developed many ideas about what the Opera House would represent.  Hell, it doesn't get picked up again until past the midway point of season three.

No, I'm not. I felt that all along. In fact, after season one, I had a feeling that the show was going to be way more mystical than it wound up being. You get your wishes for what the show was supposed to be confused with reality.

I think it's important to distinguish between the development of the story and the story itself.  To use a non-spoilery example (well, at least not for BSG) an analysis of say, Darth Vader, has to take into account the creative process behind the character (like how when Star Wars was written, he was not yet Anakin Skywalker).

It really helps, with respect to BSG, that Moore was so open about the creative process (which, to be honest, is pretty great), because one can pretty easily trace the way the big themes and ideas were developed.  So when it comes to someone like Roslin having a "destiny" or whatever, one can separate the story's presentation of that idea from the creative process.  So, here's a series of quotes from Mr. Moore from the transcript of the podcast for "Epiphanies," which shows a snapshot of some of the creative decisions behind Roslin's arc re: the cancer and fate and what have you up 'til then:

"It seemed right at this point in the life of the series to finally do the episode that really dealt with her illness, that really dealt with the fact that Laura had been diagnosed with terminal breast cancer and that the President was slipping away from us. It had been alluded to all throughout the first season, this season we have been very direct about it, we had said that she wasn't gonna make it, the doctor had given her a very short term- a very short time in which to live and then indeed in the last weeks episode- at the end of the episode you saw her having trouble just getting up and physically walking out of Colonial One after her meeting with Adama. And it just felt like this had been simmering along for a long time and that we had to deal with it at some point, we had to really face the fact, as do all the characters, that Laura had what was a terminal illness and that it had to come to some kind of a head...

And now we get into the final sequence we should talk a little bit about why we decided to "cure" Laura's cancer at all. It was something I initially thought I was going to run as long as humanly possible, possibly to the end of the series and that her condition would never get better and that she would just eventually deteriorate. That became less and less satisfying as time went on, she was an important figure in the show and the truth of playing her illness meant that she had to get physically worse and worse and worse and be on her back and taking whatever their equivalent of chemotherapy is and surgeries and it just meant we were inevitably going to sideline the character to the point where she became a hospital figure and I just didn't wanna do that to the show. And yet I didn't wanna just wave a wand and have it go away so we came up with this route which seemed to- which came out of the writer's room I didn't come up with this- I believe it was Anne Cofell our staff writer who came up with this, I wouldn't swear to that but I think so- and this notion that something from the Cylon child can cure Laura and that the discovery is made by Baltar who is about to become President and Baltar sabotages his own Presidency by figuring out the key to Laura's survival...

It is worth noting that it's certainly possible that Laura's cancer can come back, it's certainly possible that like so many cancer patients she could be clear one day and then a few weeks or months down the line she could find that the disease is back. I think that taking the cancer away from Laura also provides us with an ability to question her role as the prophet, because if the prophecies are correct a dying leader will lead them to the promised land and if Laura's no longer dying maybe she's not the leader anymore and that was an intriguing possibility as well that only came about much later in the show because at the beginning of the show we didn't have any of this prophet stuff...


Cancer's gone. For now. [evil laugh] Because why would I wanna give up a perfectly good way of torturing a character?

[GuineaPig]

Or, here's another example about the Final Five.  You know how you've been claiming there's all sorts of foreshadowing/thought put into the identities of the last Cylons before they show up?

"So, for instance, when you decided who four of the Final Five would be, how much thought did you have to put into it before revealing it in "Crossroads," and how much was, "Oh, we'll say this and figure it out over the hiatus"?

RDM: The impulse to do it was literally an impulse. We were in the writers room on the finale of that season, always knew we would end season 3 on trial of Baltar and his acquittal, the writers had worked out a story and a plot, they were pitching it to me in the room. And I had a nagging sense that it wasn't big enough, on the level of jumping ahead a year or shooting Adama. And I literally made it up in the room, I said, "What if four of our characters walk from different parts of the ship, end up in a room and say, 'Oh my God, we're Cylons'? And we leave one for next season." And everyone said "Oh my God," and they were scared, and because they were scared, I knew I was right. And then we sat and spent a couple of hours talking about who those four would be. Surprisingly, it wasn't that hard to lock in who made the most sense and who would make the most story going forward."

[yorost]

As I said many times, the hints were not necessarily placed on purpose, but also possibly elements that helped lead to the decisions or teases/red herrings.  Nothing there contradicts that.  Get over over our discussion already, that didn't add anything we don't know.

We know they made the set in stone decisions on the characters at the very last moments.  They have not been forthcoming on when anyone first started leaning towards any of those examples.  Ellen is the perfect example, straight from a writers mouth they were thinking about making her a cylon from her very beginning.  They dropped hints on her right there, but never forced themselves to go that way until near her reveal.  Deciding at time X does not mean it was out of the blue and didn't consider any prior happenings on the show..

[Perpetual Change]

GP, that's all nice, but I don't see how it's particularly relevant.

[GuineaPig]

Analysis of art, especially something that was extended in length (and involved audience feedback), should take into account the creative process behind it.  Just for a random example, an analysis of Three saying "sorry" to one of the Final Five in "Rapture" would have to take into account that the mind of the writers at that point (which means, for example, it was almost certainly Ellen she was apologizing to).

So (and Bosk, this might constitute a SPOILER for you, so you should best look away) if the finale, for example, asserts that all of a certain character's plotline was guided by fate, any analysis has to take into account whether that was something deliberately designed from the start on the part of the creative staff or a conclusion arrived at later.

[Perpetual Change]

I dunno. It seemed to work fine for me. And, watching with the finale in mind, it all works pretty well.

[bosk1]

GP, seriously, your arguments make zero sense. 

Anyway, back to the good stuff.  Following the cliffhanger with the revelation of 4, Starbuck's return, and the imminent showdown with a big Cylon fleet, the wife chose to skip Razor and jump right into season 4 proper.  I couldn't disagree. 

Watched the first four episodes through Escape Velocity.  Wow.  A lot has happened.  The Cylon "rebellion" was incredibly interesting, and I'm bummed that it ended so quickly.  And back in the human fleet, things are really beginning to deteriorate.  The earlier statement about the Cylons not having to destroy the humans because the humans will destroy themselves is really starting to play itself out.  The gradual unraveling of individual characters really symbolizes the unraveling of humanity as a whole.  Although it should have been obvious from the getgo, I'm becoming increasingly aware that the proper genre of the series really is more along the lines of being a tragedy than an adventure.  Anyhow, after Escape Velocity, we may now go back and watch Razor.

[GuineaPig]

GP, seriously, your arguments make zero sense. 

What's so confusing about taking into account the creative process when analyzing art?  Especially when it has major ramifications about interpretation?

And Razor's an interesting beast.  There's quite a bit of good, a spoonful of bad, and one particularly baffling creative decision.

[yorost]

Just for a random example, an analysis of Three saying "sorry" to one of the Final Five in "Rapture" would have to take into account that the mind of the writers at that point (which means, for example, it was almost certainly Ellen she was apologizing to).

You don't even read what we're writing.  We had went into this in detail.  Ellen is who it ultimately meant in the writer's minds, but when they revealed that they straight out said that they only decided it meant her after they finally decided she would certainly be a cylon (post season 3).  It was not meant to be her when they wrote it.  Maybe they had not settled on who it meant when they wrote it, they do suggest that, but since they only ever discussed it after Ellen was revealed, and they had basically retconed any meaning, we really don't know.  Maybe they were playing it at 2 or 3 possibilities they could go with.  Maybe they targeted someone specific and it just didn't matter to them any more.  The apology was too strong to not have some meaning in their minds.  So there's still discussion to be had on the original intent.

[yorost]

Anyway, back to the good stuff.  Following the cliffhanger with the revelation of 4, Starbuck's return, and the imminent showdown with a big Cylon fleet, the wife chose to skip Razor and jump right into season 4 proper.  I couldn't disagree. 

Watched the first four episodes through Escape Velocity.  Wow.  A lot has happened.  The Cylon "rebellion" was incredibly interesting, and I'm bummed that it ended so quickly.  And back in the human fleet, things are really beginning to deteriorate.  The earlier statement about the Cylons not having to destroy the humans because the humans will destroy themselves is really starting to play itself out.  The gradual unraveling of individual characters really symbolizes the unraveling of humanity as a whole.  Although it should have been obvious from the getgo, I'm becoming increasingly aware that the proper genre of the series really is more along the lines of being a tragedy than an adventure.  Anyhow, after Escape Velocity, we may now go back and watch Razor.

Bad call.   Something important happens in Razor that affects watching season 4, especially early on.  It wasn't just a nice thing to make, it did serve as a bridge from season 3 to season 4.

edit: Do not put off Razor any longer, you're going to cheat yourself of a great facet of season 4 if you keep putting it off.

[bosk1]

GP, seriously, your arguments make zero sense. 

What's so confusing about taking into account the creative process when analyzing art?  Especially when it has major ramifications about interpretation?

There's nothing "confusing" about it at all.  It's just that your argument is nonsense.

[ariich]

Indeed.  Like I said earlier, you're skills at watching the show have grown greatly.

You know, these comments do come off rather badly.  I feel awkward reading them.

Hm.

IMO, the show is kinda sorta meant to be watched a certain way.  99% of the time someone complains about the show, it's because they're watching the show they want to see and not the show the writers intended.

It's fun to read Bosk's comments because it's so obvious that he gets the show.

I absolutely agree with this, and it's always been my main problem with GP's complaints about the show.

If you don't like it, that's cool. But it's nonsensical to slag it off in such objective terms when comparing it to something that it's not trying to be.

[bosk1]

Watched Faith last night.  It was so good that, despite having to get up at 5:00 to go to work, we had to watch the next episode (Guess What's Coming to Dinner?) as well.  I can't remember so many moments in such a short span of time.  When the plugged the hybrid back in at the end, and the first thing she says is "Jump!" I was like:    "Wait!  NO!"



Can't wait to see what's next.

[GuineaPig]

"Guess What's Coming To Dinner" is a pretty good episode.  Gaeta's arc is the major redeeming feature of season 4, in my opinion.

[yorost]

Did you watch Razor?

You're cheating yourself of a cool facet of season 4 if not.

[bosk1]

No, I didn't.  Sometime in the next few days, though.  I'm guessing that whatever you are talking about has to do with Natalie, since she was the Six that the Pegasus captured.

[yorost]

Just watch it before you go any further.

[bosk1]

Razor and five more episodes.  Ended up getting in a lot of watching while wrapping presents Friday and Saturday night.  Watched through A Disquiet Follows My Soul.  Lots of questions, but two of the biggest right now are:
-Where's Ellen?
-What exactly is Starbuck?

And I have to say, making Nicholas not be Tyrol's son seems like such an unnecessary gut punch.

[Dimitrius]

Soon she will appear.

Yeah, I disliked very much what they did with Tyrol's Hot Dog's kid

[ReaPsTA]

Razor and five more episodes.  Ended up getting in a lot of watching while wrapping presents Friday and Saturday night.  Watched through A Disquiet Follows My Soul.  Lots of questions, but two of the biggest right now are:
-Where's Ellen?
-What exactly is Starbuck?

And I have to say, making Nicholas not be Tyrol's son seems like such an unnecessary gut punch.

Dude, how can you see Sometimes a Great Notion and not post about it?

BOSK FRIENDLY SPOILERS:









 - A Disquiet Follows My Soul was directed by creator Ronald D Moore.  I actually think that he did a very good job with this show.  A few very creative visual moments and good acting.

 - How about the big celebration when they get to Earth, then finding out it's a nuclear wasteland, then finding out all the humanoids on Earth were Cylons?

 - Roslin gives up.  Heartbreaking.

 - Dualla commits suicide.  Probably the biggest wham moment in the show.

 - The whole confrontation between Adama and Tigh is intense, no?

 - Re:  Where's Ellen - What happens to humanoid Cylons when they die?

 - Nicholas being part Cylon would have stepped on Hera.  Gotta get that out of the way.

 - Major piece of exposition RDM dropped in the Sometimes a Great Notion podcast that didn't find its way into the show:  Humans first lived on Kobol and created humanoid Cylons.  Due to some unknown catastrophe, the humans went one way (the twelve colonies) and the humanoid Cylons went another way (Earth).  From there, you can fill in based on the show.

 - How did you like Razor?

[yorost]

Yeah, I disliked very much what they did with Tyrol's Hot Dog's kid

Yup, completely unnecessary, especially with how interesting things had been going.

[bosk1]

SPOILERS & STUFF...

Dude, how can you see Sometimes a Great Notion and not post about it?

I probably will.  Tired and behind at work, and with 5 episodes plus Razor, there's a LOT to post about.

- How about the big celebration when they get to Earth, then finding out it's a nuclear wasteland, then finding out all the humanoids on Earth were Cylons?

I knew earth had been nuked, so it wasn't a big shock.  I read a bit of the thread pretty early on, long before deciding to watch the show.  There was a post of yours reveailing that earth had been nuked, and even though I read it a LONG time ago, I remembered that.  But don't feel bad for spoiling it.  That post lingering in my mind was one of the things that eventually prompted me to start watching the show in the first place.  Still very cool.  They did it well.

As far as the humans on earth being Cylons, it had already been revealed that the Five had been on earth, so I knew that some Cylons were there.  So while earth being a completely Cylon colony was a cool twist, my reaction overall was along the lines of, "WAIT, WHA--oh, yeah, okay, that actually makes a lot of sense. 

- Roslin gives up.  Heartbreaking.

Totally.  Really interested in seeing what happens with her and seeing whether she will rise above it all yet again, or just fade away in despair.

- Dualla commits suicide.  Probably the biggest wham moment in the show.

But did she?  That moment in the show was actually very unclear, I thought.  It looked to me like someone else put the gun to her head and pulled the trigger, and just made it look like a suicide. 

- The whole confrontation between Adama and Tigh is intense, no?

Totally.  VERY well done.  And as much as I hate to admit it, Tigh is actually becoming a likeable character despite how much I despise some of his character flaws.

  - Nicholas being part Cylon would have stepped on Hera.  Gotta get that out of the way.

Eh, I guess.  I was initially thinking that the series was going to conclude with basically most of the human and Cylons destroying themselves before finding earth, and then Nicolas and Hera being the prototypical "Adam and Eve" that would start humanity anew on Earth and begin a new civilization.  That's the general direction I thought the show might likely be heading.  Seemed logical from the way things were unfolding.

- Major piece of exposition RDM dropped in the Sometimes a Great Notion podcast that didn't find its way into the show:  Humans first lived on Kobol and created humanoid Cylons.  Due to some unknown catastrophe, the humans went one way (the twelve colonies) and the humanoid Cylons went another way (Earth).  From there, you can fill in based on the show.

It wasn't explicitly stated all in one place, but that was actually mostly spelled out in the series.  At least, I was able to pretty much put that together.

- How did you like Razor?

It was pretty good.  It's interesting to see something like that sort of "after the fact" in terms of it being well after the time the events actually occurred.  But it was great backstory that not only added a lot of depth to the Pegasus arc, but also provided a lot of cool backstory for where I am currently in the series.  So pretty neat in terms of being somewhat unnecessary, but still bringing a lot to the table. 

[yorost]

It also provided the lead in to season 4, telling us that Starbuck would lead humanity to its ruin.  It was a pretty striking line coming from the way season 3 ended.  All of a sudden Starbuck was something very dangerous, not just the bringer of good news.

[bosk1]

Oh yeah, good point.  As crazy as it may sound, I forgot that that was part of Razor.  Watching so much in such a short period of time does have a tendency to make things blur just a bit. 

[ReaPsTA]

- How about the big celebration when they get to Earth, then finding out it's a nuclear wasteland, then finding out all the humanoids on Earth were Cylons?

I knew earth had been nuked, so it wasn't a big shock.  I read a bit of the thread pretty early on, long before deciding to watch the show.  There was a post of yours reveailing that earth had been nuked, and even though I read it a LONG time ago, I remembered that.  But don't feel bad for spoiling it.  That post lingering in my mind was one of the things that eventually prompted me to start watching the show in the first place.  Still very cool.  They did it well.

As far as the humans on earth being Cylons, it had already been revealed that the Five had been on earth, so I knew that some Cylons were there.  So while earth being a completely Cylon colony was a cool twist, my reaction overall was along the lines of, "WAIT, WHA--oh, yeah, okay, that actually makes a lot of sense. 

Whoopsies!

Glad you liked the twist though.  From a plot/mythology standpoint, it was one of my favorite parts of the show.

- Roslin gives up.  Heartbreaking.

Totally.  Really interested in seeing what happens with her and seeing whether she will rise above it all yet again, or just fade away in despair.

Stay tuned.

- Dualla commits suicide.  Probably the biggest wham moment in the show.

But did she?  That moment in the show was actually very unclear, I thought.  It looked to me like someone else put the gun to her head and pulled the trigger, and just made it look like a suicide. 

She did.

- The whole confrontation between Adama and Tigh is intense, no?

Totally.  VERY well done.  And as much as I hate to admit it, Tigh is actually becoming a likeable character despite how much I despise some of his character flaws.

Hahahahahahahahahaha.

  - Nicholas being part Cylon would have stepped on Hera.  Gotta get that out of the way.

Eh, I guess.  I was initially thinking that the series was going to conclude with basically most of the human and Cylons destroying themselves before finding earth, and then Nicolas and Hera being the prototypical "Adam and Eve" that would start humanity anew on Earth and begin a new civilization.  That's the general direction I thought the show might likely be heading.  Seemed logical from the way things were unfolding.

Interesting thought.  I think the thing is that Hera's singular importance in the mythology would have been undermined.  A lot of the show's plot is clearly improved, but that would have been too big a diversion from what was established.

- Major piece of exposition RDM dropped in the Sometimes a Great Notion podcast that didn't find its way into the show:  Humans first lived on Kobol and created humanoid Cylons.  Due to some unknown catastrophe, the humans went one way (the twelve colonies) and the humanoid Cylons went another way (Earth).  From there, you can fill in based on the show.

It wasn't explicitly stated all in one place, but that was actually mostly spelled out in the series.  At least, I was able to pretty much put that together.

Interesting.

- How did you like Razor?

It was pretty good.  It's interesting to see something like that sort of "after the fact" in terms of it being well after the time the events actually occurred.  But it was great backstory that not only added a lot of depth to the Pegasus arc, but also provided a lot of cool backstory for where I am currently in the series.  So pretty neat in terms of being somewhat unnecessary, but still bringing a lot to the table.

How about Cain and Gina?  If you watch Pegasus with that knowledge, suddenly everything in that episode feels more personally relevant.

[yorost]

They could have killed Tyrol's kid to keep Hera's prominence.  With the struggles over the kid they decided to put in, anyways, they could have used that as a springboard to the kid being offed.  The Hot Dog twist was unnecessary and lame.

[bosk1]

I should also add that this short series of dialog was one of the best in the entire series:

Helo: "Athena tells me the upgrades should...triple the Fleet's jump capacity."
Tyrol: "Absolutely. And that's conservative. Their technology-our technology, is way ahead of ours. Yours."
Tigh: "Maybe you'd like a chart to keep it all straight?"

[Marion Crane]

WOW....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0027UY8B8/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?t=sdfp-21&tag=sdfp-21&ie=UTF8&smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE

[yorost]

I watched Crossroads out of curiosity from the discussion.  Yeah, the trial stuff is frequently awkward, you kind of need to take it as a means for the story to posture a variety of viewpoints instead of as a trial.  There aer a few things to note, though.  The episode makes it clear there was no real legal system in place.  The prosecutor makes a snide comment to Tory along the lines of "good luck finding another lawyer" if they want to replace her.  Tony Romo also makes a comment about the fleet looking to reestablish a legal system following the trial.  The writers at least tried to explain away any need they had to make a realistic trial.  I think you can interpret it as a farce meant to execute Baltar, not an attempt to be faithful to their legal system.  I think Lee's whole stance kind of back's that up.  Everyone just wants to airlock Baltar, so he latches onto serving law to spit in their faces.