Author Topic: Official Queensryche Thread - NEW ALBUM INFO. p. 30  (Read 50084 times)

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Offline dongringo

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #140 on: July 04, 2012, 09:33:08 AM »
I've been very busy and haven't been in the loop for awhile so just found out about this. I never thought there would ever be a Queensryche without Geoff, but am glad he is out due to all the reasons that have been mentioned. La Torre is a phenomenal singer and also a song writer. This and hearing the Mosh Pit demos gives me confidence that they are fully capable of delivering the goods. Also, I don't think Geoff will be keeping the name. 3/4 of the original band are still in tact. The majority will win the name (imo). Royalties and credits are a different story. Anyway, I'm just glad they are continuing and hope the best for the band...and even Geoff. Maybe some day he will look back and see that total control by himself and his wife wasn't really the best approach for a 'band.'
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #141 on: July 04, 2012, 03:11:10 PM »
You'd think that it would be that simple; four guys in the band, one is out, band keeps the name.  But I don't think we've heard much yet about the legal stuff behind it all.  If Geoff owns the name, he can take it with him.  If the name is owned jointly by him and at least one of the guys still in the band, it can get messy.  It may also make a difference to a judge that he was fired, as opposed to quitting.  Or maybe not.

When Roger Waters left Pink Floyd, if you asked him, he broke up the band and had every intention of starting a new Pink Floyd.  If I recall correctly, he claimed that he owned the name by virtue of he and Syd Barrett having come up with it originally, and since Syd had long since been out, he alone had rights to it.  The judge didn't see it that way.  He saw a band, and a guy quitting it.  Guy moves on, band keeps the name, simple as that.

Nowadays, lawyers get involved in pretty much everything, so I wouldn't be surprised that there are documents specifying who owns the name Queensryche, and what happens when someone leaves.  I'm sure we haven't heard the last of it, especially since Geoff seems pretty unhappy about it and will probably fight them on it.

Offline jjrock88

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #142 on: July 04, 2012, 03:54:35 PM »
Hopefully it can get resolved sooner rather than later and not get drawn out over a long period of time.

Offline pkj

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #143 on: July 04, 2012, 04:05:42 PM »
What are La Torre's songwriting credentials?  I don't know much about his background other than he has a long history as a drummer.  He sounds good. 

I don't know the first thing about QR's songwriting dynamics, only that during the classic period most of the credit is given to Tate / DeGarmo.  So if I had to guess I'd say that the other guys -- even if they are untapped creative wellsprings -- may need a kind of song shaper / finisher. 

Anyway I have hopes for new stuff. 

Offline Pelata

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #144 on: July 05, 2012, 07:04:02 AM »
So if I had to guess I'd say that the other guys -- even if they are untapped creative wellsprings -- may need a kind of song shaper / finisher. 

I am thinking the same thing.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #145 on: July 05, 2012, 09:38:39 AM »
the classic period most of the credit is given to Tate / DeGarmo.

If we make the assumption (and it's not without evidence) that DeGarmo wrote the music and Tate was just responsible for the lyrics (and maybe some really cool sound effects).

EP:  50/50 between DeGarmo and Wilton
Warning: 4 by Wilton, 3 by DeGarmo, 2 written together. Slight advantage to Wilton
RFO: 3 by Wilton, 4 by DeGarmo,  3 written together. Slight advantage to DeGarmo
OMC: 5 by Wilton, 7 by DeGarmo, 2 written together (1 by Rockenfield). Slight advantage to DeGarmo
Empire: 2 by Wilton, 4 solely by DeGarmo, 3 by DeGarmo/Wilton, 1 by DeGarmo/Rockenfield, 1 by DeGarmo/Jackson.  Advantage to DeGarmo here...but not as much as is commonly thought. 

And admittedly, Promised Land (their masterpiece) is well known to be mostly DeGarmo, with some imput from the rest of the band.  (although...while the album was not much of a collaborative effort...they did manage to get together for a few days and write their first collaborative *song* with the title track, which is AMAZING). 

My point is this...if you look at that list, DeGarmo is *technically* in the majority.   But it's not *NEARLY* the dominant force of the classic period that people are sometimes led to believe.    The evidence shows otherwise.   Wilton was very nearly a 50/50 contributor to the classic QR period, and I think way too many people forget that.   
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Offline pkj

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #146 on: July 05, 2012, 09:57:53 AM »
All good points.  I also agree that PL is their best album.

The big mystery (at least for me) is whether, in the post-DeGarmo period, Wilton (above all) and Jackson / Rockenfield were 1) given opportunities to contribute but for the most part were unwilling or unable, or 2) were more or less shut out of the band's creative and decision-making processes by Tate.  It's obvious what Tate wants us to believe, but as a casual observer with no special insight into matter, I'm still agnostic on the whole thing.  Some solid new RW/QR material will make the question beside the point anyway.   
 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 10:08:29 AM by pkj »

Offline Nick

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #147 on: July 05, 2012, 11:21:43 AM »
The band will either die or die based on the next album.

Not a misprint.

On one hand either the album will be bad and anybody who was holding out for Tate-less Ryche as a final hope will abandon ship, or the album will be great and the band still will only slow the decline they've been on. Queensryche today can't really go back up that much, the times and situation just aren't there for it. At this point in either case even if new material is great, which I'll appreciate, they'll probably devolve into a nostalgia act just to keep much needed income coming in the door.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #148 on: July 05, 2012, 11:29:46 AM »
I disagree.  They won't reignite the music scene and become a household name.  But they can win back a large portion of the fan base that was disenchanted with Queensryche for the last decade or so.  And while they aren't likely to have massive success with a new generation of fans, as with a lot of bands from that era, if they put out some quality material, enough of the band's old fan base's kids and their friends will likely take decent notice.  They don't have to sell a ton of albums.  They just have to sell enough that people want to come and see them, which will get them booked back into decent venues.
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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #149 on: July 05, 2012, 11:36:44 AM »
While I think it's a remote possibility they perhaps outsell the last album, I find that to be highly unlikely, and I would put a chunk of change on them never outselling American Soldier.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #150 on: July 05, 2012, 11:38:35 AM »
Hey, so I consider myself a bit of a fan of Queensryche (I own their older albums, like the debut EP, The Warning, and O:M), but I haven't been following them recently. Would somebody care to explain to me what these creative differences were that led to Geoff's firing, and why everybody is so thankful they've got a new guy?

Offline Nick

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #151 on: July 05, 2012, 11:53:57 AM »
Geoff was basically coming up with concepts, ignoring musical input from the rest of the band so he could hire outside writers to give him exactly what he wanted and the result was anywhere from horribly bad (new album) to pretty good. Most hardcore fans will basically say nothing since Promised Land has come close to that level again.

And it's not just songwriting, but Geoff smokes, drinks at will, and generally doesn't give a shit about the quality of his voice.
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Offline pkj

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #152 on: July 05, 2012, 12:06:19 PM »
There also seemed to be a pretty extraordinary amount of Tate family cronyism on the business side of things.  In the RS interview, he casually mentions that the manager, an office assistant, and a guitar tech happened to be Tate family members; and then you have two Tate daughters involved with the music and performances, and of course Lundgren himself who was initially plugged in to the band when he was a Tate in-law.  Yech. 


Offline Pelata

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #153 on: July 05, 2012, 12:56:05 PM »
and why everybody is so thankful they've got a new guy?

Because the new guy hits all the old notes.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #154 on: July 05, 2012, 03:04:08 PM »
Hey, so I consider myself a bit of a fan of Queensryche (I own their older albums, like the debut EP, The Warning, and O:M), but I haven't been following them recently. Would somebody care to explain to me what these creative differences were that led to Geoff's firing, and why everybody is so thankful they've got a new guy?

Geoff has been a *HUGE* ego problem from the very beginning.   (his reputation of being a dickhead of Yngwie Malmsteen proportions has been notorious in the Seattle area since the days of the EP!) 

But all this was forgivable as long as the talent was there.   You put up with the ego when you've got (quite possibly) the most talented voice in the history of rock.

But after DeGarmo left, Tate started to completely take over the direction of the band.   As the above posts have mentioned, Geoff's wife became the manager (and reliable sources have reported that was a contributing factor in DeGarmo's departure) and his creating control was crowding out the other member's contributions.  He started bringing in outside writers, and the fans weren't happy with the final product.   But the concerts are still selling out, and you're collecting a paycheck, so you leave well enough alone.  (that last sentence is speculation...but it does fit existing facts)

But with Defecated to Chaos, the poop really hit the fan.   In Brazil, there was a physical altercation when the rest of the band called a band meeting...and Geoff wasn't invited.   Sources say that the meeting was about firing Geoff's wife as manager and that Geoff was next.  Most people believe this.   Some sources say Geoff pulled a knife, but that is now mostly considered apocryphal.   Just a couple weeks later, Rising West was born.   Coincidence?  I think not.

Add to that the previous comments that Geoff has NOT been taking care of his voice.   He is *no longer* the greatest voice in rock.   He's a jerk who hasn't been taking care of his instrument.    ....and that makes him just another jerk....albeit a jerk with money. 

Thus (to sum up), the fans don't like the direction of the band (that is all Geoff Tate's doing), havn't liked it in over 15 years (under Geoff's direction), and no longer feel Geoff's talent as a lead singer and frontman is up to par....and not just by QR standards...but by *any* standard whatsoever.

Some fans have been calling for Geoff's head on a stick for the better part of the last decade...but that crowd grew *MUCH* larger after the Cabaret tour, and the abysmal last album.    So it all just came to a head, and most people are breathing a sigh of relief right now.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #155 on: July 05, 2012, 03:54:12 PM »
That really sums everything up pretty well, as far as I can tell.  And it all fits with known facts.

Offline jjrock88

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #156 on: July 05, 2012, 06:26:00 PM »
well put Jammin

Offline jammindude

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #157 on: July 05, 2012, 06:54:53 PM »
Thank you....I try.   :angel:
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Offline jjrock88

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #158 on: July 05, 2012, 07:46:08 PM »
Jammin, I know you are from Seattle; was there much mainstream media coverage locally in regards to Tate getting kicked out?

Offline jammindude

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #159 on: July 05, 2012, 08:36:15 PM »
Jammin, I know you are from Seattle; was there much mainstream media coverage locally in regards to Tate getting kicked out?

Not really, no.   Although I admit that I don't listen to the local rock stations any more...havn't for a long time.  I honestly don't think there is such a thing as "local coverage" in a music event any more.    It would have to be *really* huge...like if Ann Wilson died.   THAT would be medium range story everywhere else, and a monumental headliner here.    But Tater getting kicked out of QR?  Not so much.
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Offline Pelata

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #160 on: July 06, 2012, 06:29:19 AM »
I'm not sure if I'm buying all this "Geoff Tate is the devil" stuff.

I'm not saying he's not a dick. I could see, very easily, him being highly egotistical, stubborn, and generally not a very nice person. I can also see him asserting himself artistically to the chagrin of the band.

BUT-

Queensryche was an equal partnership corporation. If the other 75% had a problem with the 25% attempting to run everything, they could have pulled rank on him a long time ago. They did not.

I've seen in many places where one of Chris' reasons for leaving, and one reason the last 2 albums he was on before he left were basically "all Chris", was nobody else bothered to contribute. He (Chris) handled the music, he handled the concepts, he handled the business after EMI started falling apart, he carried the band. So, in my mind, it stands to reason that if the rest of the band weren't stepping up before Chris left, that they would not get any better after he left. My understanding was, this even included Geoff.

Chris really drove the bus on PL and HITNF...the other guys went along. By most accounts, and what I have read, he realized that he was equally splitting his income with guys who were not contributing any longer (there are also strong rumors of him not getting along w/ Geoff's then-new wife Susan)...so he left. It's been strongly rumored that for all intents and purposes, Queensryche broke up after the Empire tour cycle and it took a miracle (Chris) to get them back together to write/record PL.

If there is ANY shred of truth to that whatsoever, then it's not entirely impossible that GT took the reins out of necessity.

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #161 on: July 06, 2012, 07:01:33 AM »
What is this I keep hearing about the cabaret tour?

Offline Pelata

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #162 on: July 06, 2012, 07:08:34 AM »
What is this I keep hearing about the cabaret tour?

Strippers, acrobats, mimes, GT in his underwear, all while playing Queensryche songs...  :lol




Offline jammindude

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #163 on: July 06, 2012, 07:21:05 AM »
....and don't forget that Geoff hired *his own daughter* to be one of the STRIPPERS on stage with him. 
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Offline Pelata

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #164 on: July 06, 2012, 07:27:29 AM »
....and don't forget that Geoff hired *his own daughter* to be one of the STRIPPERS on stage with him.

Yeesh...  :|

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #165 on: July 06, 2012, 07:31:03 AM »
What is this I keep hearing about the cabaret tour?

Strippers, acrobats, mimes, GT in his underwear, all while playing Queensryche songs...  :lol





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Offline Orbert

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #166 on: July 06, 2012, 07:34:23 AM »
Queensryche was an equal partnership corporation. If the other 75% had a problem with the 25% attempting to run everything, they could have pulled rank on him a long time ago.

Do we know this?  In some bands, everyone has an equal voice, or at least some kind of vote in band-related decisions.  In others, there are very clear leaders.  The Who was Pete Townshend's vision, without a doubt.  The others had a voice, but you know who made the final decisions.  King Crimson and Robert Fripp, same thing.

I've seen in many places where one of Chris' reasons for leaving, and one reason the last 2 albums he was on before he left were basically "all Chris", was nobody else bothered to contribute. He (Chris) handled the music, he handled the concepts, he handled the business after EMI started falling apart, he carried the band. So, in my mind, it stands to reason that if the rest of the band weren't stepping up before Chris left, that they would not get any better after he left. My understanding was, this even included Geoff.

Chris really drove the bus on PL and HITNF...the other guys went along. By most accounts, and what I have read, he realized that he was equally splitting his income with guys who were not contributing any longer (there are also strong rumors of him not getting along w/ Geoff's then-new wife Susan)...so he left. It's been strongly rumored that for all intents and purposes, Queensryche broke up after the Empire tour cycle and it took a miracle (Chris) to get them back together to write/record PL.

If there is ANY shred of truth to that whatsoever, then it's not entirely impossible that GT took the reins out of necessity.

This is interesting and yes, Tate may well have taken the wheel because no one else would take it.  That would seem to help his case.

But even if the others all held their tongues while Queensryche became a mockery of themselves, collected their paychecks because hey, a gig's a gig, they apparently finally had enough.  I'm trying to type this while there's a picture of Geoff Tate in his Jockeys and a dressing gown above me on the screen, and I can't help but think that they made the right decision.

Offline Pelata

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #167 on: July 06, 2012, 07:38:43 AM »
Quote
Do we know this?  In some bands, everyone has an equal voice, or at least some kind of vote in band-related decisions.  In others, there are very clear leaders.  The Who was Pete Townshend's vision, without a doubt.  The others had a voice, but you know who made the final decisions.  King Crimson and Robert Fripp, same thing.

Well, in GT's RS interview, he said he was a 25% owner of Queensryche's companies. That makes me assume that Scott, EdBass and Wilt are the other 75%.

Quote
This is interesting and yes, Tate may well have taken the wheel because no one else would take it.  That would seem to help his case.

But even if the others all held their tongues while Queensryche became a mockery of themselves, collected their paychecks because hey, a gig's a gig, they apparently finally had enough.  I'm trying to type this while there's a picture of Geoff Tate in his Jockeys and a dressing gown above me on the screen, and I can't help but think that they made the right decision.

Oh, I can see them getting sick of it. I just wish they had pulled rank before letting it get to the point of actually kicking him out...perhaps they could have come to a mututal understanding if they had done something before reaching the frayed ends...

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #168 on: July 06, 2012, 07:56:18 AM »
Michael Wilton *did* state at one point that his ideas had been submitted...but "the lead singer" had rejected them. 

It's true that the band was not contributing much for PL or HITNF....but in the *same interview* where CDG said that, he also said that it was primarily due to marital and personal problems that the other band members were having.   It stands to reason that if/when these problems were sorted out, many ideas would come flowing out of the darkness.   (heck, look at what came out of Phil Collins divorce!  DUKE!) 

But by that time, Geoff was in charge and rejecting ideas.   "Nah...it doesn't fit in with the 'theme' of this album...but thank you for your contribution, and maybe we'll look into that on the next go round....mmmmm kay?"
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Offline Pelata

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #169 on: July 06, 2012, 08:10:08 AM »
Michael Wilton *did* state at one point that his ideas had been submitted...but "the lead singer" had rejected them. 

It's true that the band was not contributing much for PL or HITNF....but in the *same interview* where CDG said that, he also said that it was primarily due to marital and personal problems that the other band members were having.   It stands to reason that if/when these problems were sorted out, many ideas would come flowing out of the darkness.   (heck, look at what came out of Phil Collins divorce!  DUKE!) 

But by that time, Geoff was in charge and rejecting ideas.   "Nah...it doesn't fit in with the 'theme' of this album...but thank you for your contribution, and maybe we'll look into that on the next go round....mmmmm kay?"

Oh yeah, I can totally see that.

But Jason Slater has also stated that when they were making O:M2 he & GT were begging for ideas, and nobody would participate and barely even show up. GT actually fought to keep one of EdBass' ideas against what Slater (producer/co-writer) thought, according to Slater himself. MW submitted ideas finally only after the album had entered the mixing stage. Slater even went to MW's own studio for several days and could not get him to write.

But, in the end it's all "he said/they said" and perspective. What's done is done now, but I really wish it wasn't. I just wish they could have made it work and tried to come back from the DTC thing. (even though some of that is at least fairly interesting)...

Offline bosk1

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #170 on: July 06, 2012, 08:16:10 AM »
Quote
Do we know this?  In some bands, everyone has an equal voice, or at least some kind of vote in band-related decisions.  In others, there are very clear leaders.  The Who was Pete Townshend's vision, without a doubt.  The others had a voice, but you know who made the final decisions.  King Crimson and Robert Fripp, same thing.

Well, in GT's RS interview, he said he was a 25% owner of Queensryche's companies. That makes me assume that Scott, EdBass and Wilt are the other 75%.

Yes, you are techincally correct.  But Geoff's statement was carefully calculated to generate precisely the same type of misunderstanding that your post displays.  Let me see if I can clarify exactly why he is being misleading. 

Geoff's statement as to the percentage of ownership isn't entirely accurate, but for the sake of argument, yes, it's close enough to say that in terms of the main corporate entity for Queensryche, each of the 4 remaining original members owned 25%.  What that number means is that each owns 25% of the stock of the corporation.  And when there is a corporate shareholder's meeting to vote on business decisions, each has an equal vote.  However, that does not equate to everyone in the band having an equal vote. 

First off, either in large corporations, or smaller closely-hold corporations like a band, shareholder meetings are extremely rare.  So while they were making creative decisions as a band, that's not the same thing has having a formal shareholder meeting and making business decisions as shareholders of a corporation.  Yeah, same guys.  But wearing different hats.  You aren't really acting in your corporate shareholder capacity when you are submitting some riffs and saying how you think a song should be arranged.

Second, in terms of day-to-day management of a corporation, different people have different management roles, some of which are more active decision-making roles.  The most obvious way to describe this is to look at the president/CEO role in comparison to a VP role.  Even where the president and vice president have equal ownership rights in a corporation, the president has more management authority in terms of the day-to-day business of the corporation.  (and Geoff was not the president; I am merely illustrating the point that roles differ in terms of authority even where ownership is equal)

Third, personal dynamics come into play more than percentage of ownership when you are just doing the day-to-day work of running a band.  People with more dominant personalities or who speak up more about their creative vision end up being the ones to steer the ship.  That's just the way people interact.  When you have a strong personality calling the shots, sometimes it's easier to choke down the frustration and give in than to put your foot down and say "enough."  That can be complicated when other factors come into play, such as the fact that the person with the strong personality has been your friend for 30 years, or that he is considered by many to be the face/voice of the band for 30 years, or that his family members, who you have known for a long time, are employees of the band. 

So, yeah, there's a lot more that comes into play than just ownership.  It's easy to say, "oh, well they were all equal members, so if there was really a problem, the others guys should have spoken up and overruled Geoff."  Not nearly as easy in practice when you are the guys in the band.  That's what I hate about Geoff's statement.  For the most part, the 25% ownership thing is fairly true.  But it is also deliberately misleading.  Hopefully, my explanation helps.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 08:56:42 AM by bosk1 »
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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #171 on: July 06, 2012, 08:35:04 AM »
Well then, there you go...thanks for explaining.

Offline Orbert

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #172 on: July 06, 2012, 11:49:21 AM »
Yeah, great post!

That also seems to explain how they were able to fire him, even though he was a partial owner.  They, the other owners, voted him out.  It was a corporate business decision, which operates on a different level from the band itself.  Same guys, same result, but a different mechanism.

Offline Pelata

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #173 on: July 06, 2012, 02:24:08 PM »
New interview w/ GT:

https://www.billboard.com/news#/news/q-a-ex-queensryche-frontman-geoff-tate-discusses-1007510752.story

At least he clarifies being "co-writer" of 81% of the songs, not "chief writer"...

Offline bosk1

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Re: Re: Queensryche
« Reply #174 on: July 06, 2012, 02:38:20 PM »
Quote
You raised the point that you personally wrote the vast majority of the Queensryche catalog . . .  

I would say, in vague terms, of the 144 songs that Queensryche has published and written, I've been a co-writer on 114, which is something like 81% of all of the music. 

The way it's stated in Rolling Stone is that you wrote them -- as in, you completely wrote them. 

Oh yeah. Well, that's one of those little inaccuracies that get passed along through interpretation [laughs]. But the accurate numbers and all that, it's obviously in the legal claim. 

Um...no, Geoff.  That's one of those little inaccuracies that gets passed along because those were your exact words that you said!   :\

And I love how he keeps saying all the "facts" are out there in the lawsuit that was filed.  Again, um...no.  What is in the lawsuit is Tate's lawyer's spin on the facts.  Unfortunately, lawsuits only present one side, and half of what is in a complaint is later usually proven to be either exaggeration or just flat out wrong. 
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