A rant by rumbo, apparently caused by his German-ness

[rumborak]

So, today I walked out of a restaurant, the second time already for the same restaurant, for the same reason.

What happened was that we arrived as a group of 5 to eat there. The woman told us "around 10 minutes wait" which sounded reasonable. Well, 10 minutes go past, 15, then 20. She finally comes by, saying "the table we're waiting for has paid their check quite a while ago, but they haven't gotten up yet". I waited another 5 minutes, then I grabbed my jacket and walked out.
Is it really the end of the world to tell people who've already paid a long time to wrap up so other customers can sit down? That group probably had no clue that there were 5 guys sitting on the bench who had been waiting for 20 minutes already. I dunno, this is common practice in Germany; they let you sit for a while after you paid the check, and when others are waiting they come around and say "we actually have other customers waiting, do you mind wrapping up?".

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

I do nazi what your German-ness has to do with it.

[rumborak]

dunno, was thinking that maybe it's because it's common practice in Germany that I grew up thinking it's fine to ask people to wrap up. My (American) roommate said she would be mad if a waiter asked them that.

[black_biff_stadler]

That's cuz America is the most pathetic excuse for a country in the history of mankind when it comes to being far too desperate for money to the extent that all service establishments are so paranoid that any statement that can, at any point in time, possibly be misconstrued as (not even rude but) less than ass-kissingly polite seems to be thoroughly forbidden from usage. Shit, I thought it was a fucking crying shame when restaurants started saying we couldn't call the clientele their actual name, customers, and instead must use the completely inaccurate and thoroughly exaggerated term "guest."

Now I work in a corporate retail store for barely more than minimum wage and we have to refer to them as guests. We never invited them over. They aren't being entertained, served dinner, or socialized with in any context besides thoroughly sales-driven communication. And lastly, when the fuck has anyone ever charged their actual guests in their home for the services rendered during the course of the evening?

[Fiery Winds]

I've been asked when with friends to vacate our table during rush hour.  Don't mind at all, either.

[rumborak]

I've been asked when with friends to vacate our table during rush hour.  Don't mind at all, either.

I also don't get why one should. They're a business and need to make money, and I would think waiting customers are equally as important as ones sitting. Ok, maybe slightly less important, but not to the extent where the sitting ones are treated like royalty and the waiting ones are just hoipolloi dragged in by the cat.

[El Barto]

I think I'd put it more on the customers. They might not have known people were waiting, but if I notice that there aren't any empty seats to be had, I assume there are people waiting. I'm definitely one to linger after a meal. It's not uncommon for me to drink two or three more beverages afterward. I've also been in restaurants where I'm eating with people I see very infrequently, and we'll hang out as well. In that situation I got there first and I'm keeping the table, but that's uncommon and more often than not I'll vacate it for others.

[MetalJunkie]

I've never been asked to leave. I'd probably be a bit surprised if it actually happened.

[lonestar]

Would't ever happen in my place, the customer can camp as long as they want. The hostess should take campers into account when giving time estimates, kinda like Mr. Scotty to Kirk. If a repair takes an hour, tell him three hours. Get it done in three, you're cool, get it done sooner, you're a goddamn miracle worker.

[MetalJunkie]

I don't know anything about German etiquette or social practices, but I've always gone out to eat strictly as a social thing. I generally spend more time talking than I do eating.

[Elite]

I've never seen anyone being asked to get up and leave, because other customers are waiting. In The Netherlands, going out for dinner is usually time-consuming stuff and takes up about 2-3 hours, like a 'night out' of sorts. If you were to be rushed by the host, that would be very weird and unappreciated over here. You just sit down, take whatever time you need or get to eat your dinner or chat with the people you're with etc. and only leave when YOU (as the customer) think it's time to leave (unless of course you're approaching closing hours or sth).

[King Postwhore]

I can't believe you are posting this because my brother went for training in France close to the border of Germany and he was telling me about the German influenced foods he ate and the different customs about service, tipping and length of the meal.

First off, he told me that they get to you ASAP get your order in fast and then your on your own until your done.  Fast and efficient.  Then when you are done the bill is there and you move on, in and out where here in America you mull forever.  I for one like to get out when we are done.  My wife was a waiteress for a long time and that's how she made her money so we just try to move on fast after finishing.  Besides we always meet up at someone's house after and we can gab there.

[Tick]

It would be a good idea to politely remind people others are waiting to dine. On the other hand people should have a clue that people are waiting and have the sense to move on. I'm always conscious of the fact a busy restaurant has people waiting since I waited myself.

Maybe the rest of the world isn't as selfish as spoiled self centered Americans who don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves. Its like that in restaurants, shopping stores, amusement parts, on the highway, and just about anywhere else you can think of. I am disgusted with the way people act. Rude.

[Progmetty]

I've been here 4 years now and not once did I wait at a restaurant when I was told to or even stayed if I saw a line, there's no anger involved but I just find it stupid to wait to eat if I'm dining out cause 1- I can't possibly be craving this place's food so bad that I can't go somewhere else. 2- If I'm going to a restaurant then I'm hungry now.
Could be my Egyptian-ness; up until I left Egypt the common restaurant practice was that if it's full you were told "We're full, we don't know when we won't be", in a sugar coated way but still it makes no promises.

[rumborak]

I'm definitely one to linger after a meal. It's not uncommon for me to drink two or three more beverages afterward. .

BTW, that was not the case here. Those people already had paid the check a long time ago and were just using the restaurant as a Starbucks essentially, and still the hostess didn't dare say something.

[Tick]

and if you are buying drinks and spending money you are not lingering.

[Perpetual Change]

I say let 'em linger. Even if you've already paid, sitting around talking with your friends is part of the fun of going out.

[Tick]

I say let 'em linger. Even if you've already paid, sitting around talking with your friends is part of the fun of going out.

There should be some common sense if your the customer. If you are there 20 minutes past paying the check you should move on so others can actually get seated. Go to the bar and hang out and spend the rest of the night if you want. After all, you are done. Go out somewhere else and hang out for the night. You paid your check which means you are done. Lingering 15 to 20 minutes is unnecessary.

[Perpetual Change]

I say let 'em linger. Even if you've already paid, sitting around talking with your friends is part of the fun of going out.

There should be some common sense if your the customer. If you are there 20 minutes past paying the check you should move on so others can actually get seated. Go to the bar and hang out and spend the rest of the night if you want. After all, you are done. Go out somewhere else and hang out for the night. You paid your check which means you are done. Lingering 15 to 20 minutes is unnecessary.

Nah. If I'm paying good money, and I'm out with a group, we might stay 15-45 minutes passed whenever someone brings the check. When we actually pay isn't anyone's business, and shouldn't matter. If we wanted to be herded through a cattleshoot, there's always McD's.

Paying your check doesn't mean you're done. It means someone brought it to you, and I want to pay and tip them before they leave, regardless of how much longer I personally plan on staying.

[Perpetual Change]

One thing I liked about Hong Kong is, generally, you ASK for the check. No-one just comes over and hands it to you when they assume you're done and want you out. Considering HK's population density, that's pretty great. Yeah, you're waiting 45 mins to get in a resturant sometimes, but once you're in, you're in, and you're allowed to enjoy yourself. If someone wants you out by a certain time, they tell you before you're seated. If you're with a large group and want to get in on time, you make reservations.

[bosk1]

I say let 'em linger. Even if you've already paid, sitting around talking with your friends is part of the fun of going out.

There should be some common sense if your the customer. If you are there 20 minutes past paying the check you should move on so others can actually get seated. Go to the bar and hang out and spend the rest of the night if you want. After all, you are done. Go out somewhere else and hang out for the night. You paid your check which means you are done. Lingering 15 to 20 minutes is unnecessary.

Nah. If I'm paying good money, and I'm out with a group, we might stay 15-45 minutes passed whenever someone brings the check. When we actually pay isn't anyone's business, and shouldn't matter. If we wanted to be herded through a cattleshoot, there's always McD's.

Paying your check doesn't mean you're done. It means someone brought it to you, and I want to pay and tip them before they leave, regardless of how much longer I personally plan on staying.

Yeah, exactly.  I get the bind the restaurant is in, and I get that it sucks for the people waiting if the place is full.  But many have the expectation that once you get to your table, you stay as long as you like (within reason), and sometimes, the occasion may call for you to stay much longer than simply having your meal and dashing for the door. 

Plus, the Chef hath spoken:

Would't ever happen in my place, the customer can camp as long as they want. The hostess should take campers into account when giving time estimates, kinda like Mr. Scotty to Kirk. If a repair takes an hour, tell him three hours. Get it done in three, you're cool, get it done sooner, you're a goddamn miracle worker.

[rumborak]

I guess I have a different perception of what restaurants are. To me they're not lounges, but places to eat. Yes, the socializing part is important, but it's not assumed that you can just hang out until they close.
If you're not done yet, then don't pay the check, and maybe get some more drinks later on. That's totally fine. But paying the check and then just squatting the premises is dickish, and ridiculous that the hostess won't politely ask to clear out.

[El Barto]

I guess I have a different perception of what restaurants are. To me they're not lounges, but places to eat. Yes, the socializing part is important, but it's not assumed that you can just hang out until they close.
If you're not done yet, then don't pay the check, and maybe get some more drinks later on. That's totally fine. But paying the check and then just squatting the premises is dickish, and ridiculous that the hostess won't politely ask to clear out.

Like I said, it kind of depends on your situation. First off, it's rare that I find myself in a place with a shortage of table space. On the rare occasion that I do, and if it's just a casual meal, I'd usually make a point to not linger too long. If I'm dining with old friends that I never get to see, all bets are off. We're hanging out until we're ready to leave. I have friends that I see once a year and it's usually over dinner. We'll spend a couple of hours.

And Metty's got a point. There's only so long I'm willing to wait before I make a different plan. You get a about 15 minutes and that's it. There are far too many good restaurants in Dallas to wait 45 minutes for a table.

[bosk1]

I guess I have a different perception of what restaurants are. To me they're not lounges, but places to eat. Yes, the socializing part is important, but it's not assumed that you can just hang out until they close.
If you're not done yet, then don't pay the check, and maybe get some more drinks later on. That's totally fine. But paying the check and then just squatting the premises is dickish, and ridiculous that the hostess won't politely ask to clear out.

I think it's just different cultural norms and expectations, that's all.

[Perpetual Change]

A see a big dividing line between restaurants and fastfood joints or cafeterias. I never go to restaurants with people for any reason other than socialization, honestly. Why are you paying $15 (plus tip) for a burger and a watery beer, if not to kick back and have a good time? I honestly can't see why I'd go out with a group if socialization wasn't on the main course

In line with what Barto said, when I do find myself alone eating out, I never linger, and am usually in and out faster than service could shuffle me through the doorways.

[lonestar]

I should state, in America at least, paying the bill allows the server to leave if you are there last table. I've seen tables ignor the bill for an hour, the server just sitting and waiting the whole time.


But if I drop a c-note or two on dinner, and am asked to move along, I will never be hitting that restaurant again.

[Tick]

I say let 'em linger. Even if you've already paid, sitting around talking with your friends is part of the fun of going out.

There should be some common sense if your the customer. If you are there 20 minutes past paying the check you should move on so others can actually get seated. Go to the bar and hang out and spend the rest of the night if you want. After all, you are done. Go out somewhere else and hang out for the night. You paid your check which means you are done. Lingering 15 to 20 minutes is unnecessary.

Nah. If I'm paying good money, and I'm out with a group, we might stay 15-45 minutes passed whenever someone brings the check. When we actually pay isn't anyone's business, and shouldn't matter. If we wanted to be herded through a cattleshoot, there's always McD's.

Paying your check doesn't mean you're done. It means someone brought it to you, and I want to pay and tip them before they leave, regardless of how much longer I personally plan on staying.

Ok, I can see your point. Its a valid perspective. I guess I'm just very conscious of people waiting so I will make a plan to go elsewhere. That's just me.

[kirksnosehair]

It really depends on the situation for me.  When I go out to dinner with my wife and a couple of our friends, we typically go to pretty nice places where you need reservations.   Appetizers, drinks, dinner, desert, we're talking anywhere from $275 to $400 when you factor in the tip and we tip @ 20% minimum, 25% for exceptional service.  I expect to be able to sit there and hang out with my wife and our friends until I don't want to sit there anymore.  And I honestly can't recall a time we've been hustled out the door.  If we were, I think it would probably be the last time we went to that place.


On the other hand, when my wife and I are just being lazy and don't want to cook and we head down to the local pub for a steak or some burgers, that's a different situation.  The wait staff there are making a living from doing more volume and it's not the kind of place where we'll linger for more than 10 minutes or so from when we finish eating, especially if we know there are a ton of people waiting for a seat.

[Tick]

I should state, in America at least, paying the bill allows the server to leave if you are there last table. I've seen tables ignor the bill for an hour, the server just sitting and waiting the whole time.


But if I drop a c-note or two on dinner, and am asked to move along, I will never be hitting that restaurant again.

Understood.

[black_biff_stadler]

From a consumer's standpoint, I can understand feeling entitled to stay as long as you wish if you're spending what you feel is a lot of money but often there just isn't enough real math figured in to justify lengthy camping after the end of the meal (the point when desserts/cocktails/etc. are no longer being regularly ordered; basically when the check isn't growing by at least $20 per every additional 30 minutes of occupancy.)

Consumer point: I gave a good tip and we had a high check total.

If you tipped at least 20% and were given good service that's fair for both sides. The problem is that most servers only have 4-5 hours to legitimately make money per shift since the first 1-2 hours are usually spent setting the place up and getting barely any tables and, once the rush dies, it's at least 1 more hour of getting virtually no tables and working for $2.13 an hour which is taxed as a wage itself and also has to pay the taxes of the tips as well which means most servers' make literally nothing off of their hourly rate.

With that in mind, every table that walks out because they didn't wanna wait 20+ minutes while people camp cuts into additional money servers could be making to help offset the borderline free labor they put in at the start and end of each shift. Also, if you end up spending 3 hours there despite no longer adding to the check total past the halfway mark of that 3-hr period, then you're basically undertipping unless you come pretty close to doubling the original tip since that server lost more than 20% of that table's available time for seating during realistically viable money making hours that shift.

I understand the original total may have been higher than a typical table and some of you may think that covers the spread. Not really when you consider that higher ticket totals usually mean having to put in a bit more work for a table than usual by bringing more drinks/food/etc. and thusly it limits their ability to max out the tip potential at their other tables that are seated at that time.

Basically, camping at a server's table is about the most monetarily consequential camping environment of all service industry jobs. There are many coffee shops open until at least 11 pm and numerous bars that aren't holes in the wall, make better drinks than what you'll get at a restaurant, and for no more money than it'll cost you in the restaurant plus bartenders usually get legit shift pay or a far greater hourly rate than a server so I really don't see the need for diners to be so territorial and offended at being expected to "only" spend 60-90 minutes in the restaurant when that's directly costing someone money, the only money they make since the hourly rate is a total sham.

[bout to crash]

I would actually argue, in line with RJ's point, that it's the restaurant's bad for giving you such a short time estimate. Of course they can never know for certain, but ten minutes?! I don't think I've ever been told ten minutes. Tell me 30- if I'm not THAT hungry and there's a bar, that's fine... and then if a table opens in 15 minutes, it's a very pleasant surprise. If I can't possibly imagine waiting 30 minutes, there are probably a ton of other restaurants nearby to choose from.

And as others have said, it's definitely a cultural thing. I don't think I've ever been asked to leave by a server, even at closing time, and I think most Americans I know would be surprised and/or offended by that. I love hanging out after a meal... it also helps in itis recovery.

[Tick]

From a consumer's standpoint, I can understand feeling entitled to stay as long as you wish if you're spending what you feel is a lot of money but often there just isn't enough real math figured in to justify lengthy camping after the end of the meal (the point when desserts/cocktails/etc. are no longer being regularly ordered; basically when the check isn't growing by at least $20 per every additional 30 minutes of occupancy.)

Consumer point: I gave a good tip and we had a high check total.

If you tipped at least 20% and were given good service that's fair for both sides. The problem is that most servers only have 4-5 hours to legitimately make money per shift since the first 1-2 hours are usually spent setting the place up and getting barely any tables and, once the rush dies, it's at least 1 more hour of getting virtually no tables and working for $2.13 an hour which is taxed as a wage itself and also has to pay the taxes of the tips as well which means most servers' make literally nothing off of their hourly rate.

With that in mind, every table that walks out because they didn't wanna wait 20+ minutes while people camp cuts into additional money servers could be making to help offset the borderline free labor they put in at the start and end of each shift. Also, if you end up spending 3 hours there despite no longer adding to the check total past the halfway mark of that 3-hr period, then you're basically undertipping unless you come pretty close to doubling the original tip since that server lost more than 20% of that table's available time for seating during realistically viable money making hours that shift.

I understand the original total may have been higher than a typical table and some of you may think that covers the spread. Not really when you consider that higher ticket totals usually mean having to put in a bit more work for a table than usual by bringing more drinks/food/etc. and thusly it limits their ability to max out the tip potential at their other tables that are seated at that time.

Basically, camping at a server's table is about the most monetarily consequential camping environment of all service industry jobs. There are many coffee shops open until at least 11 pm and numerous bars that aren't holes in the wall, make better drinks than what you'll get at a restaurant, and for no more money than it'll cost you in the restaurant plus bartenders usually get legit shift pay or a far greater hourly rate than a server so I really don't see the need for diners to be so territorial and offended at being expected to "only" spend 60-90 minutes in the restaurant when that's directly costing someone money, the only money they make since the hourly rate is a total sham.

[kirksnosehair]

You know, now that I think about it, the last place we went to eat in Boston, which was a place called "Grill 23"  When the waiter brought us the bill (which was $370 before the tip    ) he made a point of telling us to "take your time" and he definitely did not hover around us.  At no point did I get the impression that any employee of that place wanted us to leave.


While I think you have a valid point, Black_Floyd, I do have to wonder if what you're saying applies more to chain-style places, where the entrees are in the $20 range.   Because when I eat at places like that I DO get a sense of some pressure to leave once the check has been delivered.  At the more upscale places, I've never felt pressured to leave at all.


And really, if I thought staying there -especially after the wait staff told me to take my time- was causing some real hardship to anyone, I'd leave.


I know one of the places we eat in Boston that's pretty upscale (we jokingly refer to it as the "100 dollar steak place"    ) has a waitress that my wife is friends with and she makes a damned fine living working there.  Enough that she owns a condo in the Back Bay of Boston. 

[hefdaddy42]

I agree with Rumbo.  I think it's incredibly rude to just camp out for a long time after the check has been paid.  It's a service industry, once you have received the service and paid for the service, the relationship is over.

If you are still at the table and continue to order drinks and stuff, that's completely different, but just hanging out seems incredibly insensitive to the business and other consumers that would like the same service but can't because you are too lazy to loiter somewhere else.

[Perpetual Change]

I agree with Rumbo.  I think it's incredibly rude to just camp out for a long time after the check has been paid.  It's a service industry, once you have received the service and paid for the service, the relationship is over.

If you are still at the table and continue to order drinks and stuff, that's completely different, but just hanging out seems incredibly insensitive to the business and other consumers that would like the same service but can't because you are too lazy to loiter somewhere else.

It's not about laziness. I'm perfectly fine being told I have to wait to get in because people are enjoying themselves, with the expectation that I'm also not going to get herded out myself.