If Deep Purple Liked Madonna A Lot [modes lesson]

[Tuneman]

BTW, your thumb position video is equally as misleading. Since when is there a "proper position" for your thumb?

rumborak

not true.  Especially in classical guitar.  There are definetley good position and bad.  Your thumb is supposed be where it is when you try to play the first 4 notes (chromatically) on the G string.  There are exeptions, but in terms of learning technique. This is how to start

[blackwing]

Here's what Mr. Vai has to say about vibrato (from part 2 of his martian love secrets)

Vibrato is a very expressive technique, and can say a thousand different things when properly used (or misused). Sit with your guitar and a clock, and vibrate a note for one hour. Sounds simple, but here's the catch...

Never deviate from holding that note.

Pick it as many times as you like. Try many different vibrato approaches (fast, slow, soulful, mellifluous, etc).

Most important, don't let your mind wander. When you find yourself thinking of anything other than vibrato (and you will, probably in the first few seconds), pull your mind back to the note. Your mind will wander off into thoughts such as "Am I doing this right?", then "Boy, what a waste of time this is!" Eventually, you'll find yourself thinking about your friends, your financial situation, what you did yesterday, what you're going to do tomorrow, and of course, "Let's eat!" This is the hard part. Just keep pulling your mind back to vibrating that note. It's a discipline worth working on.

Eventually, you'll exhaust all conventional vibrato approaches, all the ways you saw someone else do it. Then (if you have the discipline to continue), your mind will enter private realms and you will reach deeper into your own uniqueness for different ideas.

You may have to start practicing this technique little by little, doing it for just five or ten minutes. Try timing yourself. Ultimately, you'll find that when it comes time to "just play", you'll use these vibratos with great ease, and you will discover something different in your playing.

Sure /// if you have 8 hrs to practise everyday

@rumborak : I'm not tryin to teach vibrato to anyone man ... I'm jus sayin ...  I prefer to let it come naturally ..

I've never really sat down and practiced vibrato or anything ... If you know a good lesson or exercise(besides Vai's above) lemme know ... I'll try it out

didnt you read it? he said take like 5 or 10 minutes.... last time i checked time flow didnt make that into 8 hours. and when you let it come naturally it doesn't sound like natural vibrato should sound.

i think u should read vai's tips again man ... he says  u should sit and vibrate a note for 1 freakin hour

and look up vai's 8 hour workout it's freakin scary ....


@tuneman ;
exactly ... u are supposed to keep ur thumb in the middle when ur playin classical stuff...
i'm not so much into classical ... but i use the same principle in my playing


btw jus uploaded another video a sweet lil arpeggio lick
check it out .
www.wildguitar.tk

[Tuneman]

I hate to be an ass ... but that had almost zero educational value.

I mean, what exactly is the viewer supposed to take away from the video? That modes are simply a C major scale, but starting with a different note? Frankly, I did not have the impression you knew yourself what modes are good for. All you did was the run the C major scale up and down, starting at different notes. That's not the point of modes.

For starters, I absolutely fail to see how you want to teach the point of modes, without a single chord in the background. Without a chordal context, all the listener hears is a C major scale, and rightly so.
If you had put a Dm chord under your D Dorian scale, the listener would have actually realized that Dorian is kinda a minor scale, but with a major 6th. That major 6th is what gives the Dorian mode its unique sound.

Sorry to write such a scalding post, but I absolutely hate these leagues of guitarists that perpetuate the notion that modes are this thing absolutely necessary to guitar playing, and that they're just these patterns your learn on the fretboard. Yes, there is a use for modes, but for the stuff we do (rock, metal), it's negligible. Rather focus on something useful such as ear development. You can pave the road with guitarists that can play scales up ad down in lightspeed, but need half an hour to figure out "Mary had a little lamb" without a tab.

rumborak

What would you then suggest for learning modes rumborak?

[brakkum]

What would you then suggest for learning modes rumborak?

read the rest of the thread, it is pretty much implied.

[Tuneman]

What would you then suggest for learning modes rumborak?

read the rest of the thread, it is pretty much implied.

I meant suggest a resource.  So if you think learning it through knowing the intervals, obviously there is more to modes than memorizing the intervals, so is their a particular book or website that explains modes, through that modus operandi

[blackwing]

What would you then suggest for learning modes rumborak?

read the rest of the thread, it is pretty much implied.

I meant suggest a resource.  So if you think learning it through knowing the intervals, obviously there is more to modes than memorizing the intervals, so is their a particular book or website that explains modes, through that modus operandi

If you're not happy with my video ... i would recommend ... vinnie moore's 2nd video it's pretty cool

[antigoon]

if you want to master vibrato, Vai's "exercise" seems pretty good, especially for people who can't get it naturally. (and MOST people can't.)

[rumborak]

not true.  Especially in classical guitar.  There are definetley good position and bad.  Your thumb is supposed be where it is when you try to play the first 4 notes (chromatically) on the G string.  There are exeptions, but in terms of learning technique. This is how to start

Classical guitar is very different from electric guitar in terms of playing. For example, to my knowledge, classical guitar doesn't bend strings. For which the "back of the neck" thumb position is completely useless.
And again, a simple open G major is terrible to play with the thumb at the back of the neck.
Not only that, but the dimensions of your hand play a major role in that too.

What would you then suggest for learning modes rumborak?

Frankly, I see in general very little value in spending much time on modes. If you see them as scales, then yes, some of them might be interesting here and there. But, there are much more interesting ones to focus on, like for example the double harmonic scale.
My overall point is, focus on something that actually gives you a useful tool for playing/writing. Learning how to play Locrian is a complete waste of time, as I yet have to see more than one song in Locrian (I think Joe Satriani's "Hordes of Locusts" is in Locrian).

rumborak

[Tuneman]

Classical guitar is very different from electric guitar in terms of playing. For example, to my knowledge, classical guitar doesn't bend strings. For which the "back of the neck" thumb position is completely useless.
And again, a simple open G major is terrible to play with the thumb at the back of the neck.
Not only that, but the dimensions of your hand play a major role in that too.

well they slide horizontally rather than a vertical vibrato, but I just tried an open G on my electric and I think I get the cleanest sound when I use my rule.  Your fingers attack the string at a right angle...

Frankly, I see in general very little value in spending much time on modes. If you see them as scales, then yes, some of them might be interesting here and there. But, there are much more interesting ones to focus on, like for example the double harmonic scale.
My overall point is, focus on something that actually gives you a useful tool for playing/writing. Learning how to play Locrian is a complete waste of time, as I yet have to see more than one song in Locrian (I think Joe Satriani's "Hordes of Locusts" is in Locrian).

rumborak

Ok but how are you going to learn the fretboard if you don't break down the modes and look at them as the same notes instead of simply intervals.  Don't get me wrong, I know that the intervals are key, but are you suggesting learning 4 or 5 patterns, for every single scale out there? That could take decades.

I am 100% understanding the logic behind the theory, but at some point you need to simply learn the fretboard. 

[rumborak]

well they slide horizontally rather than a vertical vibrato,

The reason for that is of course that plastic strings simply don't change pitch when you pull them. So, the fact that classical training can espouse this "perfect position" is partly due to the specific configuration of their instrument, not because there actually is this universally applicable way of playing guitar. It also limits your means of expression if you approach the playing always the same way. Classical guitar, as compared with electric guitar, is orders of magnitudes less expressive when it comes to tone expression. Sometimes you just need to yank the fuck out of a note, and having your thumb in that "perfect position" is totally counter-productive.

but I just tried an open G on my electric and I think I get the cleanest sound when I use my rule.  Your fingers attack the string at a right angle...

Maybe for you. For me, and many others, it doesn't. For example, my hands are fairly large, so the thumb overreaches quite a bit on an open G.
Add to that that the "perfect thumb" position is a fairly tense position to play in. Do that at a 3 hour gig, and you can shake hands with tendonitis pretty soon.

Ok but how are you going to learn the fretboard if you don't break down the modes and look at them as the same notes instead of simply intervals.  Don't get me wrong, I know that the intervals are key, but are you suggesting learning 4 or 5 patterns, for every single scale out there? That could take decades.

The criterion for a good scale isn't how quickly you can learn it, it's how good it sounds. So, just from the simple fact that you canconveniently reuse patterns you learned for the major scale, makes the Locrian scale a scale worth studying?
Again, the double harmonic scale is 100 times more useful (and DT agrees, judging from their regular use of it) than some stupid scale that is just convenient to learn.

Rumborak

[brakkum]

on the thumb issue...

not to mention that i use my thumb for hitting notes on the low e, and even a. cant really do that if its in the middle of the damn neck...

[antigoon]

Yeah, if you're even slightly interested in playing in the styles of SRV and Hendrix (you might not be, who knows) you're gonna have to wrap that thumb around.

The point is, I really don't think classical left hand position is necessary for rock and metal. It may suit your style, but it may not. There's no hard and fast rule. It seems you still have a lot to learn -- why are you trying to give lessons? Don't take that the wrong way or anything, I'm just wondering.

[blackwing]

Yeah, if you're even slightly interested in playing in the styles of SRV and Hendrix (you might not be, who knows) you're gonna have to wrap that thumb around.

The point is, I really don't think classical left hand position is necessary for rock and metal. It may suit your style, but it may not. There's no hard and fast rule. It seems you still have a lot to learn -- why are you trying to give lessons? Don't take that the wrong way or anything, I'm just wondering.

+1 totally agree with ya on that one ...
i know the video is slightly wierd cuz i'm talkin about a perfect thumb position while wearin a jimi hendrix t-shirt

[austin]

I meant suggest a resource.  So if you think learning it through knowing the intervals, obviously there is more to modes than memorizing the intervals, so is their a particular book or website that explains modes, through that modus operandi

I don't know about you guys but I learned from a combination of Wikipedia and practical application

[emindead]

Maybe for you. For me, and many others, it doesn't. For example, my hands are fairly large, so the thumb overreaches quite a bit on an open G.
Add to that that the "perfect thumb" position is a fairly tense position to play in. Do that at a 3 hour gig, and you can shake hands with tendonitis pretty soon.

Rumborak

Not if you warm up properly before each gig (but true, who does that ALL the time?)

[rumborak]

Maybe for you. For me, and many others, it doesn't. For example, my hands are fairly large, so the thumb overreaches quite a bit on an open G.
Add to that that the "perfect thumb" position is a fairly tense position to play in. Do that at a 3 hour gig, and you can shake hands with tendonitis pretty soon.

Rumborak

Not if you warm up properly before each gig (but true, who does that ALL the time?)

No, that has nothing to do with warming up. Strain on the hand is a function of your hand position, not of your warming up.

rumborak

[blackwing]

Maybe for you. For me, and many others, it doesn't. For example, my hands are fairly large, so the thumb overreaches quite a bit on an open G.
Add to that that the "perfect thumb" position is a fairly tense position to play in. Do that at a 3 hour gig, and you can shake hands with tendonitis pretty soon.

Rumborak

Not if you warm up properly before each gig (but true, who does that ALL the time?)

true !! you can avoid a lot of injuries simply by ensuring a good hand position and going at a comfortable speed

No, that has nothing to do with warming up. Strain on the hand is a function of your hand position, not of your warming up.

rumborak

[Ryan Dougherty]

well if that works for you then cool, and if it works for others, even better. all i can say is what it takes is tiime studying and using the modes. not a device. knowing the relationships between the scales is the only way they w2ill really help you in the end.

well it helped me, and I'm no beginner...

I use modes all the time and can't seem to remember what they're called... seeing the shapes he used, which are shapes I use all the frickin time, and the mnemonic device really helps me be able to visualize the shape (and corresponding chord) and remember what the heck to call it

So it gets an A in my book

[blackwing]

well if that works for you then cool, and if it works for others, even better. all i can say is what it takes is tiime studying and using the modes. not a device. knowing the relationships between the scales is the only way they w2ill really help you in the end.

well it helped me, and I'm no beginner...

I use modes all the time and can't seem to remember what they're called... seeing the shapes he used, which are shapes I use all the frickin time, and the mnemonic device really helps me be able to visualize the shape (and corresponding chord) and remember what the heck to call it

So it gets an A in my book

ah finally some compliments

[Ryan Dougherty]

no prob man... to be frank, one thing I hate about forums, and well, people in general, is that they spend too much time criticizing the techniques other people use, and spend very little time doing their own improved technique...

for instance, if someone doesn't like your video very much, they should say, "hmm, I would have done it like this" and then made their own video.

Only complaint I had was the sound quality.  there was a huge buzz going on that made it hard to understand you (accent was not a problem   )

[brakkum]

for instance, if someone doesn't like your video very much, they should say, "hmm, I would have done it like this" and then made their own video.

thats what we have been saying since the start.

[antigoon]

you don't need to be an expert in whatever field you're criticizing someone in.

[emindead]

Maybe for you. For me, and many others, it doesn't. For example, my hands are fairly large, so the thumb overreaches quite a bit on an open G.
Add to that that the "perfect thumb" position is a fairly tense position to play in. Do that at a 3 hour gig, and you can shake hands with tendonitis pretty soon.

Rumborak

Not if you warm up properly before each gig (but true, who does that ALL the time?)

No, that has nothing to do with warming up. Strain on the hand is a function of your hand position, not of your warming up.

rumborak

Played classical guitar for eight years, no strain when I did warm up.

[blackwing]

no prob man... to be frank, one thing I hate about forums, and well, people in general, is that they spend too much time criticizing the techniques other people use, and spend very little time doing their own improved technique...

for instance, if someone doesn't like your video very much, they should say, "hmm, I would have done it like this" and then made their own video.

Only complaint I had was the sound quality.  there was a huge buzz going on that made it hard to understand you (accent was not a problem   )

thanks ryan ...

that's exactly wat i've been sayin ... i don't disagree with everything than that's posted here ... but i would love to be proven wrong or rather corrected ... if you guys have any problem with my videos ... tell me wat i did wrong and i'll fix it ...
there are millions of guitarists out there and even more instructional videos .. but i don't think any one particular style is right or wrong ... i jus make videos out of wat i feel is right ..
and if guys disagree lemme know ... or better yet like ryan pointed out make a video and send it to me .. i'll make sure it's up in the website ...

@ryan : oh and as for the noise .. i kinda jus moved to a new city .. so i still need to fix the guitar a lil bit ..

[rumborak]

no prob man... to be frank, one thing I hate about forums, and well, people in general, is that they spend too much time criticizing the techniques other people use, and spend very little time doing their own improved technique...

Eh, that's a nice assumption you have there, that we all can't play anyway and rather scour the web to criticize other players instead of trying to improve our own...

My concern is that with the video, blackwing, like so many other guitarists, perpetuates the myth that modes are such an integral part of guitar playing that one needs to spend the majority of one's time on their mastery. Usually at the expense of ear development or rhythm.
I can only speak from my personal experience, but my current band's members have bitched multiple times about they were forced to work with guitarists who could play scales and modes up and down in blinding speed, and yet couldn't hold a rhythm to save their life.

rumborak

[brakkum]

no prob man... to be frank, one thing I hate about forums, and well, people in general, is that they spend too much time criticizing the techniques other people use, and spend very little time doing their own improved technique...

Eh, that's a nice assumption you have there, that we all can't play anyway and rather scour the web to criticize other players instead of trying to improve our own...

My concern is that with the video, blackwing, like so many other guitarists, perpetuates the myth that modes are such an integral part of guitar playing that one needs to spend the majority of one's time on their mastery. Usually at the expense of ear development or rhythm.
I can only speak from my personal experience, but my current band's members have bitched multiple times about they were forced to work with guitarists who could play scales and modes up and down in blinding speed, and yet couldn't hold a rhythm to save their life.

rumborak

yes.

modes are worthless unless you know their origins, how they sound, how to use them, and how they differ from other scales.
if you cant think a melody and play it then its all worthless.

[blackwing]

no prob man... to be frank, one thing I hate about forums, and well, people in general, is that they spend too much time criticizing the techniques other people use, and spend very little time doing their own improved technique...

Eh, that's a nice assumption you have there, that we all can't play anyway and rather scour the web to criticize other players instead of trying to improve our own...

My concern is that with the video, blackwing, like so many other guitarists, perpetuates the myth that modes are such an integral part of guitar playing that one needs to spend the majority of one's time on their mastery. Usually at the expense of ear development or rhythm.
I can only speak from my personal experience, but my current band's members have bitched multiple times about they were forced to work with guitarists who could play scales and modes up and down in blinding speed, and yet couldn't hold a rhythm to save their life.

rumborak

couldn't agree more ...

and i'm not tryin to propogate ppl to play modes blindly ... but this video is just  a beginning ...
the best way to learn modes IMO is to seeing the modes from the angle of thier base chord ...
i definitely will be covering that in my next video ...
but in this video i wanted those who didn't know bout modes to get used to the tonality..
before movin on to the application and composition

[Ryan Dougherty]

i think those of you who are being critical don't understand that his video wasn't bragging to teach people about modes and how best to use them, but rather to show a good way to remember what they're called and the correct order of how they stretch across the neck in a particular key

Saying that his video didn't adequately address and teach modes is like saying that a teacher telling you how to spell A-P-P-L-E isn't adequately  teaching you how to grow and harvest apples.  A true statement, but irrelevant.

Eh, that's a nice assumption you have there, that we all can't play anyway and rather scour the web to criticize other players instead of trying to improve our own...

well this is the other issue with forums too... you can twist what someone says anyway you want and feel victorious in a debate... I did not say you don't play guitar as much as you critique... the point is, if you do'nt like his video, then where is YOUR video about modes?  I wasn't talking about playing technique, and since this isn't a thread about playing technique, you would think that would be obvious.  It's a thread about a video, thus if you are criticizing the video, post your own!

[blackwing]

i think those of you who are being critical don't understand that his video wasn't bragging to teach people about modes and how best to use them, but rather to show a good way to remember what they're called and the correct order of how they stretch across the neck in a particular key

Saying that his video didn't adequately address and teach modes is like saying that a teacher telling you how to spell A-P-P-L-E isn't adequately  teaching you how to grow and harvest apples.  A true statement, but irrelevant.

Eh, that's a nice assumption you have there, that we all can't play anyway and rather scour the web to criticize other players instead of trying to improve our own...

well this is the other issue with forums too... you can twist what someone says anyway you want and feel victorious in a debate... I did not say you don't play guitar as much as you critique... the point is, if you do'nt like his video, then where is YOUR video about modes?  I wasn't talking about playing technique, and since this isn't a thread about playing technique, you would think that would be obvious.  It's a thread about a video, thus if you are criticizing the video, post your own!

Ah  ... thanks man .. i couldn't have put it in better words

I'm not trying to say that this is the only way to learn modes or every other method is stupid ...
for that matter u might think that my method is idiotic ...
but still it's a method of learning modes ... and wether u like it or not ... IT WORKS
but that doesn't mean u should restrict yourself from learning alternative theories ...
google, youtube , www.wildguitar.tk are all your friends ...
there's an ocean of knowledge out there ... jus make sure u make full use of it ...


and as far as making your own video goes (which lotta ppl in this thread have mentioned)
I have to say, that these are my first instructional videos ....
the site's been running for around a month .... and i've probably learnt more about my playing in the past month
then i have in the past 7 or 8 years ...

for some strange odd reason ... people seem to be more judgemental with instructional vids then a normal show off vid
which is gr8 thing ... cuz when someone pinpoints my flaws ... i get a chance to look back and see where i'm going wrong ...
it's fairly simple but not many players get to do that

So my advice to everyone is to try makin instructional vids ....
not for the sake of provin me wrong ...but simply to rethink bout ur own playying

If any of u do lemme know and i'll even put it up in the site

Peace

[blackwing]

any one here interested in makin some videos for me?

[squishyboots]

The one thing I got out of this thread and the discussion is that my thumb position is totally fine now.  I always thought maybe my thumb wrapped around too much, and I didn't always have it center, which I found hard to do.

I kinda agree with rumby's posts in the bit that I can understand.  I don't know much really technical and theory wise beyond triads and whatnot, and have never even looked at modes, but what he is saying makes sense to me.