Author Topic: "Is Faith In God Reasonable?" - streaming NOW!  (Read 16790 times)

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Offline theseoafs

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Re: "Is Faith In God Reasonable?" - streaming NOW!
« Reply #490 on: February 19, 2013, 10:39:30 PM »
1) If atheism is true, then moral realism is false.
2) Moral realism is true.
3) Therefore, God exists.

... But you don't think our denial of objective morality is relevant to that?

No, because we actually believe in objective morality even if we say we don't.  Apparently.

Offline Ħ

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Re: "Is Faith In God Reasonable?" - streaming NOW!
« Reply #491 on: February 19, 2013, 10:41:21 PM »
1) If atheism is true, then moral realism is false.
2) Moral realism is true.
3) Therefore, God exists.

... But you don't think our denial of objective morality is relevant to that?
No. Not to me, at least. Or, say, if some person is convinced that moral realism is true, then he goes along and stumbles upon some dissenters, he shouldn't discount his belief in moral realism. That's all I've tried to say in the last two pages of the thread. Jeez, guys.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Jaffa

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Re: "Is Faith In God Reasonable?" - streaming NOW!
« Reply #492 on: February 19, 2013, 10:45:30 PM »
1) If atheism is true, then moral realism is false.
2) Moral realism is true.
3) Therefore, God exists.

... But you don't think our denial of objective morality is relevant to that?
No. Not to me, at least. Or, say, if some person is convinced that moral realism is true, then he goes along and stumbles upon some dissenters, he shouldn't discount his belief in moral realism. That's all I've tried to say in the last two pages of the thread. Jeez, guys.

It's just that I don't understand why you would bring it up at all if our objections are irrelevant to you. 

Again, nobody's saying you should dismiss your own opinion.  We're just a little irked at your apparent dismissal of our opinions.  And believe me, as someone who has taken your side before, it does sound like you're dismissing our opinions.  If that's not your intent, then please forgive my reaction. 
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline Ħ

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Re: "Is Faith In God Reasonable?" - streaming NOW!
« Reply #493 on: February 19, 2013, 10:52:47 PM »
Yeah, I don't know why I brought it up either.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Jaffa

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Re: "Is Faith In God Reasonable?" - streaming NOW!
« Reply #494 on: February 19, 2013, 10:56:36 PM »
Oh.  Well then.  My apologies!  No antagonism intended on my part. 
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline theseoafs

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Re: "Is Faith In God Reasonable?" - streaming NOW!
« Reply #495 on: February 19, 2013, 11:09:56 PM »
Oh, man.  It seemed just a little while ago like we were all on the same page, but now H is just outright denying that anybody disagrees with him. :lol

Offline Ħ

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Re: "Is Faith In God Reasonable?" - streaming NOW!
« Reply #496 on: February 19, 2013, 11:32:47 PM »
wait wut?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline rumborak

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Re: "Is Faith In God Reasonable?" - streaming NOW!
« Reply #497 on: February 20, 2013, 08:28:55 AM »
Regarding the universe discussion, an interesting article on self-renewing universes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21499765

Quote
If the calculation on vacuum instability stands up, it will revive an old idea that the Big Bang Universe we observe today is just the latest version in a permanent cycle of events.

"I think that idea is getting more and more traction," said Dr Lykken.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline eric42434224

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Re: "Is Faith In God Reasonable?" - streaming NOW!
« Reply #498 on: February 20, 2013, 08:39:11 AM »
I also read an article about the Higgs Boson, and if the calculations on it are within a certain amount, they predict another universe will come into existence within ours and expand at the speed of light and destroy the existing universe, and will happen in a few billion years.  Seems like our big bang could have been the death sentence of the previous universe.  Interesting.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 08:50:47 AM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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Offline rumborak

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Re: "Is Faith In God Reasonable?" - streaming NOW!
« Reply #499 on: February 20, 2013, 08:47:26 AM »
That's exactly what that article is about :lol
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline eric42434224

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Re: "Is Faith In God Reasonable?" - streaming NOW!
« Reply #500 on: February 20, 2013, 08:51:15 AM »
That's exactly what that article is about :lol

I guess I should have read your link.   :blush
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline Scheavo

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Re: "Is Faith In God Reasonable?" - streaming NOW!
« Reply #501 on: February 20, 2013, 09:41:14 AM »
1) If atheism is true, then moral realism is false.
2) Moral realism is true.
3) Therefore, God exists.

1) Is deeply flawed, for atheism could be true, and moral realism could still be true.*edit* Buddhism is an atheistic religion with a moral realistic framework. There you have atheism is true, and moral realism is true. But no "God."

2) What do you mean by moral realism? Secondly, stating something is true does not make that thing is true. You need an argument for the 2nd premise, otherwise you're begging the question.

3) Moral realism being true does not lead to God's existence. You're conclusion has seemingly nothing to do with the rest of your premises.  As I pointed out already, moral realism being true can mean a lot of things, not all of which mean God exists.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 10:24:53 AM by Scheavo »

Offline Ħ

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Re: "Is Faith In God Reasonable?" - streaming NOW!
« Reply #502 on: February 20, 2013, 12:40:07 PM »
1) is perfectly plausible. Sure you can construct moral frameworks, but there's no real reason to think that these have an objective foundation. Moral realism is false on atheism. Indeed, that's what we've all agreed to in this past thread, pretty much. In the absence of God, there is no basis for objective morality.

2) Moral realism = "there exist objective moral values and duties". Obviously simply uttering words doesn't make something true. My justification for moral realism is the immediate experience one finds in moral truths. And no, I'm not begging the question - you don't need to assume God exists before believing moral realism. Indeed, most philosophers believe in objective morality without believing in God.

3) This just follows logically from the premises by modus tollens.

1) If A, then B.
2) ~B.
3) Therefore, ~A


EDIT: A being "atheism is true", or by substitution, "God does not exist."
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Scheavo

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Re: "Is Faith In God Reasonable?" - streaming NOW!
« Reply #503 on: February 20, 2013, 05:32:32 PM »
1) is perfectly plausible. Sure you can construct moral frameworks, but there's no real reason to think that these have an objective foundation. Moral realism is false on atheism. Indeed, that's what we've all agreed to in this past thread, pretty much. In the absence of God, there is no basis for objective morality.

I notice you evaded the example of Buddhism. Also, you contradict yourself below, because you say it's not necessary to believe in God to believe in a moral frame work.  Atheism is not counter to the idea that morals can be objective, it's counter to the idea that there is a God. Nothing more. You could also argue for an objective ontology in morality without God by pointing to the nature of reality. I don't personally buy those argumentse, but I see no reason why such a position is impossible.

You're creating a false dichotomy


Quote
2) Moral realism = "there exist objective moral values and duties". Obviously simply uttering words doesn't make something true. My justification for moral realism is the immediate experience one finds in moral truths. And no, I'm not begging the question - you don't need to assume God exists before believing moral realism. Indeed, most philosophers believe in objective morality without believing in God.

I have no idea what it is that you mean by "the immediate experience on finds in moral truths."

Quote
3) This just follows logically from the premises by modus tollens.

1) If A, then B.
2) ~B.
3) Therefore, ~A

The problem isn't in the form of the argument you're attempting to make, it's in the premises you used. The premises are faulty, so any argument based upon them is going to be faulty as well. You suddenly insert God in at the end, after falsely disproving atheism in some uncompleted argument proving a theistic objective morality.


Offline soundgarden

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Re: "Is Faith In God Reasonable?" - streaming NOW!
« Reply #504 on: February 20, 2013, 06:30:02 PM »
Sure you can construct moral frameworks, but there's no real reason to think that these have an objective foundation.

If Judeo-Christian moral frame work is not a construct, then neither are any other frameworks.  Morality as we see it today existed long before monotheism.  Your argument applies to your own theism. 

I would like to raise the question as to how is it possible to continually, over centuries, have a different 'truths' on various passages of the bible (edit..or any scripture of any faith) if the source is objective.  I am leaping to the assumption that objective truth implies immutable truths (yes?)