In the Presence of Enemies

[jammindude]

Agree with Dark Lord.   It's one of the better tracks from SC....but it is far and away the weakest of all the DT epics in my book.    Still, the worst DT epic is still pretty decent. 

[Ruba]

I don't agree with that on the grounds of its lack of consistency, but the best parts of ITPOE are definitely as good as Octavarium. I could see someone thinking it's a bit better overall, but significantly? Nah.

I can't speak for the others but I DO mean significantly. To me the entire intro to Octavarium is a throw away and Someone Like Him is completely out of place. The song never really gets going until Medicate. That's a significant chunk of background noise that I don't find with ITPOE. I've never found ITPOE inconsistent when listened to as one piece.

Are you my long lost brother? I like the intro of Octavarium, but everything else fits.

[TheGreatPretender]

Amazing song. I used to listen to it as a whole, but recently, I prefer it as a two parter, just because both parts are so delicious on their own. I also really like the intro to Pt. 2. It's got such a dark and creepy tone. I still prefer part 1, but I wouldn't say there's any part of 2 that's lacking in any way. It's just that Part 1 is sheer perfection.

[The Letter M]

Has anyone else done this, yet/before?

1. Constant Motion - 6:55
2. The Dark Eternal Night - 8:54
3. The Ministry Of Lost Souls - 15:00 (wind segues into...)
4. Forsaken - 5:36
5. Repentance - 10:44
6. Prophets Of War - 6:01
7. In The Presence Of Enemies - 25:14

I used the wind at the end of TMOLS to cross-fade into the wind that opens "Forsaken", creating a seamless segue between both songs. Also, I made sure ITPOE Pt. 2's bass part started exactly 8-beats after the last note of Pt 1, which is how it was shown/heard in the Making Of Systematic Chaos DVD (shown when JP is tracking the guitar run at the end of Part 1, you can hear the bass part come in 8 beats after the run ends).

-Marc.

[TheGreatPretender]

Has anyone else done this, yet/before?

1. Constant Motion - 6:55
2. The Dark Eternal Night - 8:54
3. The Ministry Of Lost Souls - 15:00 (wind segues into...)
4. Forsaken - 5:36
5. Repentance - 10:44
6. Prophets Of War - 6:01
7. In The Presence Of Enemies - 25:14

I used the wind at the end of TMOLS to cross-fade into the wind that opens "Forsaken", creating a seamless segue between both songs. Also, I made sure ITPOE Pt. 2's bass part started exactly 8-beats after the last note of Pt 1, which is how it was shown/heard in the Making Of Systematic Chaos DVD (shown when JP is tracking the guitar run at the end of Part 1, you can hear the bass part come in 8 beats after the run ends).

-Marc.

Haven't, but that's very cool. I should give it a try.

[AVFTTOTW]

Has anyone else done this, yet/before?

1. Constant Motion - 6:55
2. The Dark Eternal Night - 8:54
3. The Ministry Of Lost Souls - 15:00 (wind segues into...)
4. Forsaken - 5:36
5. Repentance - 10:44
6. Prophets Of War - 6:01
7. In The Presence Of Enemies - 25:14

I used the wind at the end of TMOLS to cross-fade into the wind that opens "Forsaken", creating a seamless segue between both songs. Also, I made sure ITPOE Pt. 2's bass part started exactly 8-beats after the last note of Pt 1, which is how it was shown/heard in the Making Of Systematic Chaos DVD (shown when JP is tracking the guitar run at the end of Part 1, you can hear the bass part come in 8 beats after the run ends).

-Marc.

Wow I wish that was the real tracklisting.

I hate that they did a SOYCD on ITPOE because ITPOE is so much more epic and effective as one track than as bookends.

[AVFTTOTW]

For me it is tied between In The Presence Of Enemies and A Change Of Seasons for DT's best epic.
SDIOT is behind it (it could be cut down a little but, particularly Solitary Shell, which is the only movement that doesn't work, apart from the guitar solo - I know hot take).
I'll leave placing AVFFTTOTW in this rating.


In The Presence Of Enemies is the only effective narrative epic (as it's not cringey like TCOT, which is itself barely 20 minutes). The lyrics are good and the music is super epic, metal and proggy.

IMHO not a note is wasted in ITPOE. It's really one of DT's best works from an album that in some way doesn't quite live up to or contrast it well enough (apart from TDEN and Repentance).
I also love how ITPOE develops it's thematic material (kind of like with SDIOT), they don't just copy+paste it and it feels like they transform the themes to great effect, and in the context of the songs narrative.

I don't understand why people single out Reckoning when it is not like the instrumental section of Mpt1, TDOE or even later instrumental sections of songs like Outcry, Reckoning is just a transitional section of sound painting (and some cool tinkering from Jordan) into the finale.


On observations (though I'm not in the mood to recall all of them), I find the correlation between ITPOE and Sacrificed Sons from 8VM to be fascinating, as they contain some similar themes based off some common harmonies and patterns. That said, they are used in different ways but try to convey related emotional impacts from such uses of notes (such as the F sharp riffing, and the tritone bits).

[UndercoverMyung]

ITPOE is one of my favorite DT songs.

[Lonk]

Don't know where it would rank, but it is a top 20 song for me, maybe even a top 15. Don't think it reaches top 10 though.

[geeeemo]

It is a top 3 song of mine.

[bosk1]

Has anyone else done this, yet/before?

1. Constant Motion - 6:55
2. The Dark Eternal Night - 8:54
3. The Ministry Of Lost Souls - 15:00 (wind segues into...)
4. Forsaken - 5:36
5. Repentance - 10:44
6. Prophets Of War - 6:01
7. In The Presence Of Enemies - 25:14

I used the wind at the end of TMOLS to cross-fade into the wind that opens "Forsaken", creating a seamless segue between both songs. Also, I made sure ITPOE Pt. 2's bass part started exactly 8-beats after the last note of Pt 1, which is how it was shown/heard in the Making Of Systematic Chaos DVD (shown when JP is tracking the guitar run at the end of Part 1, you can hear the bass part come in 8 beats after the run ends).

-Marc.

Not exactly, but SC is the only DT album where I did mess with the track order.  I have it like this:
1.  ITPOE (I didn't edit it to have the bass come in where it was originally intended; I just have pt. 1 and pt. 2 back to back)
2.  Forsaken
3.  Constant Motion
4.  TDEN
5.  Repentence (if I'm not in the mood for it, I'll just cut the album off right at the start of this one)
6.  TMOLS (I still don't like it, but it works better as a closer)

[Obsidian Pancake]

Great song. If someone who never heard Dream Theater before asked me to hear a song, this is one that I would show them.

And then Dream Theater would become their Dark Master.

[bosk1]

I like the song quite a bit, but there's no way it would come close to being a "first listen" song for someone who hadn't heard the band.  Great song.  But I don't think it is a good candidate for that.

[pg1067]

Probably worth referencing this thread:  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=53591.0

ITPOE ranked 5th of the 6 "mega-epics" listed -- one vote behind TCOT and a few ahead of Illumination Theory -- and WAY behind the big 3 of ACOS, SDOIT and 8VM.

[RAIN]

I only listen to it as a whole 25 minute epic.  Made an edit back when it was released.  They should not have split it, and it is a balsy 25 minute opener of the album now.  I absolutely love it.  It's the best epic right after A Change of Seasons.

[RAIN]

And that would be tough because ITPOE1 is a great opener, but it would just be too much having a 25 minute opener if you had the whole thing up front.   

Ha, see, I think a 25 minute opener is brilliant and that's how I have my tracklist order when I listen to the album.  It's fantastic. 

[Wim Kruithof]

I wonder, is their epic-splitting a hommage to Pink Floyd and the way they split Shine on You Crazy Diamond on Darkside of the Moon?

[Mr.Mister]

I wonder, is their epic-splitting a hommage to Pink Floyd and the way they split Shine on You Crazy Diamond on Darkside of the Moon?

Not sure if the only reason but I do remember MP made the comparison on the interviews for the album. (Also, SOYCD is on Wish You Were Here  )

[darkshade]

Both SC and DT12 have questionable track orders. Re-arranged, they both become much better albums immensely.
I agree, ITPOE shouldn't have been split, and CM or TDEN should have opened the album.

However, I like the split of ITPOE if SC was a 3 track album

ITPOE 1
The Ministry of Lost Souls
ITPOE 2

Done...

Would be considered one of the band's best albums by most I think. Short by DT standards, but it's a great single LP length album.

[Kotowboy]

Part 1

Part 2

[Kotowboy]

I wonder, is their epic-splitting a hommage to Pink Floyd and the way they split Shine on You Crazy Diamond on Darkside of the Moon?

Not sure if the only reason but I do remember MP made the comparison on the interviews for the album. (Also, SOYCD is on Wish You Were Here  )

I know their 'official' reason was that they couldn't decide if it should open or close the album so they chose both.

[JediKnight1969]

Great song of a criminally underrated album.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I agree with everything you said in regards to part I. It's an gem on an otherwise mediocre record. The ONLY criticism I have pertains to the lyrics. They're just OK-- subject matter is fine as far as I am concerned. 

Also a killer song to see live 

[jammindude]

Part 1

Part 2

This.

And it’s specifically the dark master section that kills it for me.

Really, almost all the lyrics on the SC album are probably the #1 reason I almost never revisit it.  I mean, DT has never been a big time lyrical band for me (not since Kevin left anyway) but the music was always good enough to overlook the benign lyrics. They were there, they weren’t great, but they were usually passable.

But SC is just laughable. “Forevermore…into the night…blistering”…I mean dear god! I think I once scrawled that on my pee-Chee when I was 12 years old! Vampires? Really? Were you shooting for a spot on the Twilight Soundtrack? “Dark master”??? Nope. It was just so bad that it made The Answer Lies Within seem like Dylan by comparison.

[AVFTTOTW]

Well I like pt 2 more than pt 1  It's the meat of the song 

[Kotowboy]

Yeah I know none of DT are that way inclined at all - and mostly the exact opposite - but I could never listen to Part 2 around my family 

" Dark Master I WILL FIGHT FOR YOU !  DARK MASTER ! NOW MY SOUL IS YOURS ! "

I know it's all a metaphor for everyone has an evil side - and REVENGE AM BAD. But yeah...


You just know all the 'tough' lyrics were cause Portnoy wanted A ALBUM WITH THE BALLS.

Both Systematic and Black Clouds are pretty bad lyrically. Which is why I call those two the treading-water albums.


Neither of them are fit to follow up Octavarium.  And Dramatic Turn was a huge improvement in most regards except production.

[pg1067]

However, I like the split of ITPOE if SC was a 3 track album

ITPOE 1
The Ministry of Lost Souls
ITPOE 2

Done...

Would be considered one of the band's best albums by most I think. Short by DT standards, but it's a great single LP length album.

I would absolutely consider it to be DT's worst -- even below TA.

But SC is just laughable. “Forevermore…into the night…blistering”…I mean dear god!

I completely dig that line!

[bosk1]

What is truly laughable to me is simply quoting a lyric and saying it is "bad" with no explanation whatsoever.  I see nothing bad about those lyrics.  And if the best you can do is quite and then basically say "hur, hur, that's bad, amirite?" then I think it says far more about the critic than it does the lyric.

[Pax]

I have always claimed that "The Reckoning" is the best section DT has ever written. Comes after a long build-up and delivers a mind-blowing instrumental

As a classical musician, I have always held prog as 2nd tier music genre, but this section is one of very rare moments which I view nearly as highly as my favorite moments in Beethoven's or Chopin's works

[darkshade]

However, I like the split of ITPOE if SC was a 3 track album

ITPOE 1
The Ministry of Lost Souls
ITPOE 2

Done...

Would be considered one of the band's best albums by most I think. Short by DT standards, but it's a great single LP length album.

I would absolutely consider it to be DT's worst -- even below TA.

DT would never release such a short album, and I already stated that I would have preferred the epic as one track, but I give props to the band for trying different track arrangements and essentially a different flow throughout on each album. I just think SC loses steam after TDEN and never recovers. A different track order, with ITPOE as one track, would have made SC a better album imo.

[Obsidian Pancake]

Part 1

Part 2

This.

And it’s specifically the dark master section that kills it for me.

Really, almost all the lyrics on the SC album are probably the #1 reason I almost never revisit it.  I mean, DT has never been a big time lyrical band for me (not since Kevin left anyway) but the music was always good enough to overlook the benign lyrics. They were there, they weren’t great, but they were usually passable.

But SC is just laughable. “Forevermore…into the night…blistering”…I mean dear god! I think I once scrawled that on my pee-Chee when I was 12 years old! Vampires? Really? Were you shooting for a spot on the Twilight Soundtrack? “Dark master”??? Nope. It was just so bad that it made The Answer Lies Within seem like Dylan by comparison.

Hello - I thought you might be interested to read Petrucci's take on the subject of his lyrics on Systematic Chaos. Not trying to change your opinion.

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/john_petrucci_speaks_on_fans_hating_his_lyrics_in_dream_theater_this_is_the_worst_cheesiest_thing_what_is_this.html

[ReaPsTA]

That thing JP said in the interview about escapism... unintentionally probably encapsulates why I think his lyrics got so inconsistent.

If you look at a song like Voices, I doubt Petrucci actually saw hallucinations while he was trying to sleep, but there's a lot of weird catholic guilt wrapped up in there which makes it compelling. Contrast with Six Degrees, which feels more documentary in nature. Not a bad documentary, but still documentary. Note how MP's lyrics are from the perspectives of the characters and JP's are not. I've never been in a mental institution with shit backed up in the toilet and not having showered for two days, but I feel the energy in TTTSTA.

Ironically people complain about SC because of the fantasy topics, but I mostly liked JP's lyrics on that record. ITPOE is about good and evil, Forsaken about seduction, and TMOLS about love and death. I think when most people complain about the lyrics on Systematic Chaos, they're really thinking about TDEN. I will not be the one to stop them on that one I'm sorry.

Someone might say "But JP always wrote goofy weird stuff, look at a song like the Killing Hand." The Killing Hand isn't *about* a weird time travel paradox. It's about guilt and the futility of trying to change what has already happened, lest you become the very thing you wished to stop.

Another example of both dynamics in play can be seen in A Nightmare to Remember. The lyrics during the heavy parts are what happened. But during the "Peaceful Sedation" section, what is happening is only implied. The section is *about* being in a liminal state of partial consciousness.

To wrap this up, consider The Count of Tuscany. I think in retrospect it's not as bad as we all thought at the time. But the lyrics are still absurd. Contrast with the part of the Lifting Shadows book where Petrucci talks about what actually happened. It's actually super interesting. Because this weird old guy's like "yes, get in my sports car with me and let's drive out to my remote castle. Oh, here's my brother they based Hannibal Lecter on but don't mind that. Now we're going to go to my creepy basement where people died in these wine barrels we still make wine with don't worry it's not weird at all." You actually feel like you just stepped into the opening of a horror movie where you watch it and wonder why the characters didn't leave while they had a chance.

Petrucci still writes good lyrics I wish he was willing to get personal more often that's where all great art comes from.

[jammindude]

What is truly laughable to me is simply quoting a lyric and saying it is "bad" with no explanation whatsoever.  I see nothing bad about those lyrics.  And if the best you can do is quite and then basically say "hur, hur, that's bad, amirite?" then I think it says far more about the critic than it does the lyric.

That came across as a bit of a personal slight. I mean, I don’t feel the need to explain how Manowar’s lyrics are laughably bad

The gods made heavy metal
And they saw that it was good
They said play it louder than hell
We promised that we would

I don’t think any more explanation beyond “that’s bad amirite?” Is necessary because even most people (not all) that listen to Manowar agree that their lyrics are pretty dumb sometimes.

I don’t see the difference between the lyrics on SC and the lyrics on the one Manowar album I own besides the fact that one of them is actually “going for the cheese” and the other was trying to be somewhat serious.

It just is what it is. But yeah, I did take it as a given.

[TAC]

The gods made heavy metal
And they saw that it was good
They said play it louder than hell
We promised that we would

Why would you quote Shakespeare in this thread?

[KevShmev]

The gods made heavy metal
And they saw that it was good
They said play it louder than hell
We promised that we would

Why would you quote Shakespeare in this thread?

No, this is Shakespeare:

"Stonehenge! Where the demons dwell
Where the banshees live and they do live well
Stonehenge! Where a man's a man
And the children dance to the Pipes of Pan"