Author Topic: In the Presence of Enemies  (Read 9503 times)

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Offline Polis

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In the Presence of Enemies
« on: January 27, 2013, 08:08:43 PM »
I think SC gets bashed so much that a lot of people undervalue this thoroughly terrific epic. While the rest of the album is admittedly shaky, ITPOE is just brilliant in memorable melodies, virtuosity, atmosphere, and epic opening/closing.

Also, part 2 is often overlooked because the beginning is quite odd and seemingly uninteresting, but the latter half just melts my mind everytime I put it on.

Offline The Letter M

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2013, 08:33:37 PM »
Added this thread to my Index thread! :tup

And I agree, this epic is underrated...slightly. I know the instrumental movement "V. Reckoning" gets a lot of flak, but as a whole, it's okay in the context of the whole song. It's not entirely out of place or too long, like parts of "A Nightmare To Remember" or "The Dark Eternal Night" and other latter-day DT songs.

I only listen to it as a whole piece now, and clocking in at 25:12, it's an amazing epic and easily the best piece from Systematic Chaos. The opening riff is great, and the whole of "I. Prelude" is pretty great with some nice playing by everyone in the band. The 2nd and 3rd movements are probably my next favorite, and the outro is pretty good too.

I like ITPOE a lot mostly because it's so unlike their other epics of that length - it's got a different feel than ACOS and 8VM and I appreciate that.

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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2013, 08:49:22 PM »
Aside from the instrumental section in Pt 2 (which I wouldn't say is actually bad, but nor do I feel it adds anything to the song that would be missed), I think it's an excellent song. I've always stuck both parts together at the end of the album so it's a whole song, rather than having it split though.

I love how Pt 2 starts off with the prominent, sly bass work from JM, with the subtle piano work, and everything else dialed back. Very underrated work there. And that huge pre-chorus is one of the most beautiful things DT has ever done. To this day, the moog reprisal of the main theme leading into the outro is still the only DT section that can consistently give me chills. JLB's vocals during that outro are some of his absolute best on recent records too. :tup :tup

It's certainly not a perfect song, but when it's good, it's absolutely amazing. It's just those few weaker sections that hold it back.
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Offline Wolfword84

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2013, 08:52:09 PM »
Yeah, ITPOE is def the best song from SC. But I really enjoy pt II more because of the intro and the SICK instrumental (with polyrythms!!!) the chorus is also very good. BUT THE OUTRO CHORD!!!! It builds up so much tension and releases it with an epic climax!!!!

Offline Wolfword84

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2013, 08:55:17 PM »
I love how Pt 2 starts off with the prominent, sly bass work from JM, with the subtle piano work, and everything else dialed back. Very underrated work there.

It's certainly not a perfect song, but when it's good, it's absolutely amazing. It's just those few weaker sections that hold it back.

this

Offline Dacling

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2013, 09:01:15 PM »
Does the "my soul is my own I do not fight for you" part at the end of the song remind anyone else of the end of Queen's Innuendo?

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2013, 10:02:07 PM »
.....is the only reason to listen to SC. Period. Great song with a great feel. Not that the other songs on SC are bad....but just like BC&SL......when I listen to those two albums and then listen to ADTOE....for me at least.....ADTOE is far and away a better album of songs. SC has ITPOE, BC&SL has TCOT....each one has a single song to save the album. ADTOE has an album full of killer songs. Sorry...mini rant.....


But yeah....ITPOE is a good song.... :tup
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2013, 10:48:27 PM »
Wonderful song. 
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Offline SeRoX

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2013, 11:08:02 PM »
Pt 2 > Pt 1 for me.

Great song, great lyrics and James' vocal delivery is awesome.
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Offline lithium112

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2013, 12:04:56 AM »
I also listen to the two parts as a whole now. I think this is a great epic because it plays into a lot of DT's core strengths:

1. Being able to write long compositions and keep the listener interested throughout.
2. Great melodic lead work from JP (especially in the intro and outro).
3. High dynamic range, with fast-paced sections seamlessly transitioning into atmospheric bits and vice-versa.
4. Really high energy riffs with equally high energy vocals (e.g. Slaughter of the Damned).

Also, I think ITPOE1 is the best of DT's album openers in terms of the intensity the intro grabs you with.

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2013, 01:03:27 AM »
As I've said before, Pt. 1 and Heretic are awesome, but after that the song goes downhill, culminating in the mediocrity of The Reckoning.

Offline Ruba

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2013, 02:35:27 AM »
My favourite DT song. Period.

I like the modern vibe in overall. I like the lyrics, they fit the music well. Heretic is one hell of a movement, one of the highest point of DT's career with its menacing melodies and soaring pre-chorus. And that nasty chorus. Hrrrr.

I agree that The Reckoning is a bit let-down, but the solos are quite cool and the Mini-Moog melody at the end of it is awesome (OK, so I and Blob finally agree on something  :lol). And the ending is truly epic.

I like the way they recycle some melodies and riffs, like the vocal melodies of Salvation mirror the first guitar solo and "Servants of the fallen".

Offline obscure

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2013, 02:39:35 AM »
Pt 2 > Pt 1 for me.

Great song, great lyrics and James' vocal delivery is awesome.
this...

Pt2 is impeccable... can music really be capable of taking you through a range of emotions during its course?
ITPOE Pt2 says yes...

Offline Ruba

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2013, 02:41:09 AM »
Pt 2 > Pt 1 for me.

Great song, great lyrics and James' vocal delivery is awesome.
this...

Pt2 is impeccable... can music really be capable of taking you through a range of emotions during its course?
ITPOE Pt2 says yes...

 :tup

I also prefer part 2.

Offline Onno

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2013, 03:44:47 AM »
I also listen to the two parts as a whole now. I think this is a great epic because it plays into a lot of DT's core strengths:

1. Being able to write long compositions and keep the listener interested throughout.
2. Great melodic lead work from JP (especially in the intro and outro).
3. High dynamic range, with fast-paced sections seamlessly transitioning into atmospheric bits and vice-versa.
4. Really high energy riffs with equally high energy vocals (e.g. Slaughter of the Damned).

Also, I think ITPOE1 is the best of DT's album openers in terms of the intensity the intro grabs you with.
I completely agree with this.

Offline Sycsa

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2013, 04:44:36 AM »
To this day, the moog reprisal of the main theme leading into the outro is still the only DT section that can consistently give me chills.
This! Every time Jordan touches the Moog, it's magic. (by "every time" I mean this and Octa)
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Offline krands85

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2013, 06:41:35 AM »
Always loved it, easily the best track from SC. A lot seem to have problems with certain parts of it, but I enjoy all of it. A top 10 DT track for me  :tup
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Online BlackInk

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2013, 08:12:48 AM »
Love it, there are some things on Systematic Chaos to like, but the majority is some lower class stuff. In the Presence of Enemies however is my top 3 Dream Theater song and also the first one I heard with them so yeah it's great.

Offline Marion Crane

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2013, 09:01:49 AM »
Significantly better than Octavarium IMO

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2013, 09:15:16 AM »
Significantly better than Octavarium IMO

Yessir.
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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2013, 09:45:10 AM »
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2013, 09:48:39 AM »
Significantly better than Octavarium IMO

Yessir.

Ditto

I don't agree with that on the grounds of its lack of consistency, but the best parts of ITPOE are definitely as good as Octavarium. I could see someone thinking it's a bit better overall, but significantly? Nah.
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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2013, 10:07:41 AM »
I don't agree with that on the grounds of its lack of consistency, but the best parts of ITPOE are definitely as good as Octavarium. I could see someone thinking it's a bit better overall, but significantly? Nah.

I can't speak for the others but I DO mean significantly. To me the entire intro to Octavarium is a throw away and Someone Like Him is completely out of place. The song never really gets going until Medicate. That's a significant chunk of background noise that I don't find with ITPOE. I've never found ITPOE inconsistent when listened to as one piece.
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Offline Mindflux

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2013, 10:11:10 AM »
I can't speak for the others but I DO mean significantly. To me the entire intro to Octavarium is a throw away and Someone Like Him is completely out of place. The song never really gets going until Medicate. That's a significant chunk of background noise that I don't find with ITPOE. I've never found ITPOE inconsistent when listened to as one piece.

I think I and II from 8VM is significantly better than III and I don't find SLH or Medicate (Awakening) out of place at all.  I feel Full Circle is the out of place part.

I'll take 8VM over ITPOE any day, but I will say I've not listened to them (ITPOE) as a "single" track.

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2013, 10:16:53 AM »
I don't agree with that on the grounds of its lack of consistency, but the best parts of ITPOE are definitely as good as Octavarium. I could see someone thinking it's a bit better overall, but significantly? Nah.

I can't speak for the others but I DO mean significantly. To me the entire intro to Octavarium is a throw away and Someone Like Him is completely out of place. The song never really gets going until Medicate. That's a significant chunk of background noise that I don't find with ITPOE. I've never found ITPOE inconsistent when listened to as one piece.

I disagree. The intro is cool atmospheric buildup that establishes the theme, and Someone Like Him is beautiful with its unique chord progressions. The only part that is weaker for me is Full Circle, just because of the silly lyrics, but musically I still think it's a good section.
Now, I do think ITPOE is still great as a whole too, but Slaughter of the Damned is empty chug with basically one note being sung over the top (is that the right name of that section?), and the instrumental section is forgettable noodling as fast as possible. The rest of the song is great, but for me it just has that huge dip in the middle that holds it back from being something I can listen to easily the whole way through like I can with Octavarium.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2013, 10:18:58 AM »
Good song; good album.  Unfortunately, I think both parts suffer (but pt. 2 moreso) just a bit from the song being split up.  The logic behind splitting it up made perfect sense at the time.  But unfortunately, in retrospect, I think it hurt the song.  I think the song and the album as a whole would have benefitted from them leaving ITPOE as one song and playing around with the track order.  And that would be tough because ITPOE1 is a great opener, but it would just be too much having a 25 minute opener if you had the whole thing up front.  And none of the other songs have a strong "album opener" type vibe.  Constant Motion would probably be the best choice, I think.  If it were up to me, and I had to compile an album using everything they had for Systematic Chaos, I think I would probably have the band record a short intro track to open the album, and then go right into Constant Motion, followed by Forsaken.  I'd have ITPOE somewhere in the middle of the album.  And then close it out with TMOLS, which is a decent closer. 
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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2013, 10:24:27 AM »
And then close it out with TMOLS, which is a decent closer.

TMOLS is generally where I stop with SC.  I love that track.


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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2013, 10:28:43 AM »
I don't agree with that on the grounds of its lack of consistency, but the best parts of ITPOE are definitely as good as Octavarium. I could see someone thinking it's a bit better overall, but significantly? Nah.

I can't speak for the others but I DO mean significantly. To me the entire intro to Octavarium is a throw away and Someone Like Him is completely out of place. The song never really gets going until Medicate. That's a significant chunk of background noise that I don't find with ITPOE. I've never found ITPOE inconsistent when listened to as one piece.

I disagree. The intro is cool atmospheric buildup that establishes the theme, and Someone Like Him is beautiful with its unique chord progressions. The only part that is weaker for me is Full Circle, just because of the silly lyrics, but musically I still think it's a good section.
Now, I do think ITPOE is still great as a whole too, but Slaughter of the Damned is empty chug with basically one note being sung over the top (is that the right name of that section?), and the instrumental section is forgettable noodling as fast as possible. The rest of the song is great, but for me it just has that huge dip in the middle that holds it back from being something I can listen to easily the whole way through like I can with Octavarium.

See, what you described with ITPOE, that's Octavarium to me. The beginning is beautiful, and SLH and Medicate are great - superb atmosphere, some gorgeous vocal melodies - and then Full Circle comes in it's like... seriously? The lyrics are pretty nonsensical and the music isn't really that good as well. The key solo is pretty boring, I'll never get why some people love it that much. Intervals is great again, the wankery manages to feel tight and works well in the song, and the climax is awesome, with the gradual increase in intensity. That would have been a high note to end it...

...but DT had to segue into one of their most boring and overrated parts. Seriously, that solo is sooooooo god-damn boring. And that doesn't have anything to do with it not being shreddy or anything, because I like slower, more paced solos a lot as well (LITS solo is probably my favourite Petrucci solo), but Octavarium's outro solo is just too long and too little variety. Nothing special, and a completely underwhelming finish.

So while I enjoy ITPOE all the way throughout, Octavarium can be a nice listen once in a while, but ultimately, a few parts hold it back from being great, or even very good.
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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2013, 01:30:21 PM »
Good song; good album.  Unfortunately, I think both parts suffer (but pt. 2 moreso) just a bit from the song being split up.  The logic behind splitting it up made perfect sense at the time.  But unfortunately, in retrospect, I think it hurt the song.  I think the song and the album as a whole would have benefitted from them leaving ITPOE as one song and playing around with the track order.  And that would be tough because ITPOE1 is a great opener, but it would just be too much having a 25 minute opener if you had the whole thing up front.  And none of the other songs have a strong "album opener" type vibe.  Constant Motion would probably be the best choice, I think.  If it were up to me, and I had to compile an album using everything they had for Systematic Chaos, I think I would probably have the band record a short intro track to open the album, and then go right into Constant Motion, followed by Forsaken.  I'd have ITPOE somewhere in the middle of the album.  And then close it out with TMOLS, which is a decent closer.

If you were the producer, DT wouldn't allow you to merge the song into one because you forgot one important reason why they did it: They desperately wanted to make it like King Crimson did on "Larks' Tongues in Aspic"  ;)
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Offline The Letter M

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2013, 01:41:26 PM »
Good song; good album.  Unfortunately, I think both parts suffer (but pt. 2 moreso) just a bit from the song being split up.  The logic behind splitting it up made perfect sense at the time.  But unfortunately, in retrospect, I think it hurt the song.  I think the song and the album as a whole would have benefitted from them leaving ITPOE as one song and playing around with the track order.  And that would be tough because ITPOE1 is a great opener, but it would just be too much having a 25 minute opener if you had the whole thing up front.  And none of the other songs have a strong "album opener" type vibe.  Constant Motion would probably be the best choice, I think.  If it were up to me, and I had to compile an album using everything they had for Systematic Chaos, I think I would probably have the band record a short intro track to open the album, and then go right into Constant Motion, followed by Forsaken.  I'd have ITPOE somewhere in the middle of the album.  And then close it out with TMOLS, which is a decent closer.

If you were the producer, DT wouldn't allow you to merge the song into one because you forgot one important reason why they did it: They desperately wanted to make it like King Crimson did on "Larks' Tongues in Aspic"  ;)
DT even covered the song for the BCASL special edition to show the world how much they appreciate King Crimson.

I don't recall that being a reason - was it stated explicitly anywhere by any of the band members? And AFAIK, both parts of LTIA aren't meant to be ONE cohesive song, considering they continued the piece on later albums, but are more like instrumentals with a specific sound in mind.

As for ITPOE being split - they DID think it was a great way to open the album, but did not want to put the whole piece first. They also didn't want to close the album with a huge epic since they JUST did that with "Octavarium" on the previous album. And so, I believe it was MP who decided to split it because it was BOTH a great way to open AND close the album, but then stated it would be played in full in concert (and thankfully so, as it is represented whole on Chaos In Motion).

I initially liked the idea of having it split, being a (yet another) nod to Pink Floyd and their split-epic "Shine On You Crazy Diamond", which also bookended an album. It also reminded me of The Flower Kings "I Am The Sun" epic, which was also split in two to bookend an album.

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2013, 01:43:03 PM »
It's got some cool bits but....it's a little much.
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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2013, 07:39:33 PM »
See, what you described with ITPOE, that's Octavarium to me. The beginning is beautiful, and SLH and Medicate are great - superb atmosphere, some gorgeous vocal melodies - and then Full Circle comes in it's like... seriously? The lyrics are pretty nonsensical and the music isn't really that good as well. The key solo is pretty boring, I'll never get why some people love it that much. Intervals is great again, the wankery manages to feel tight and works well in the song, and the climax is awesome, with the gradual increase in intensity. That would have been a high note to end it...

...but DT had to segue into one of their most boring and overrated parts. Seriously, that solo is sooooooo god-damn boring. And that doesn't have anything to do with it not being shreddy or anything, because I like slower, more paced solos a lot as well (LITS solo is probably my favourite Petrucci solo), but Octavarium's outro solo is just too long and too little variety. Nothing special, and a completely underwhelming finish.

So while I enjoy ITPOE all the way throughout, Octavarium can be a nice listen once in a while, but ultimately, a few parts hold it back from being great, or even very good.

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2013, 07:43:26 PM »
Significantly better than Octavarium IMO

Yessir.

Ditto

I don't agree with that on the grounds of its lack of consistency, but the best parts of ITPOE are definitely as good as Octavarium. I could see someone thinking it's a bit better overall, but significantly? Nah.

I don't understand any of you. 8V is wonderful, but I've never cared for ITPOE, which suffers heavily from the same problems that the rest of SC does.

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Re: In the Presence of Enemies
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2013, 07:46:19 PM »
ITPOE has surely some of SC's best material, but in no way it holds a candle against other DT epics. Also, TMOLS wouldn't have worked as an album closer me thinks. I used to love that song but now I think it drags. It drags a fucking lot.
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