Author Topic: Emerson Lake & Palmer Discography  (Read 46568 times)

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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #70 on: January 28, 2013, 11:45:26 AM »
Doesn't Keith Emerson have Parkinson's? Pretty damning for a musician, and out of his control (unlike with Lake, who's just been lounging around for the most part since ELP broke up).

Offline Orbert

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #71 on: January 28, 2013, 12:00:44 PM »
I know he's had health issues.  For some reason, I seem to think that it was some kind of nerve disorder, although I suppose Parkinson's falls into that category.  But he had surgery a few years ago and is doing much better.  That doesn't sound like Parkinson's.

Offline Orbert

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #72 on: January 28, 2013, 12:05:34 PM »
Update: A little Googling revealed that he had surgery in 1994 for nerve damage, but made a full recovery at that time.  Then in 2009, he was forced to cancel the Keith Emerson Band tour, as well as the planned ELP reunion tour later that year.

Age, and physicial limitations of the human body.  What a bitch.

Offline Nel

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #73 on: January 28, 2013, 04:14:49 PM »
A bit late and off-topic, but when I was getting into King Crimson last year, most of the albums I heard were pretty hit and miss. Lizard's the only thing by them where I thought the whole album was absolutely abysmal.

And I really do wish Tarkus was at the end of the album. The first time I ever listened to the album, the other tracks really did feel like an afterthought and it took me a while to take the time to listen to them.
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Offline Man-Erg

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #74 on: January 28, 2013, 04:16:21 PM »
Why does everyone hate on Lizard?  :'(

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #75 on: January 28, 2013, 04:22:51 PM »

whoah hey, King Crimson did it a year before, it's called Lizard.

It's all right, not everyone is awesome enough to love Lizard.  ;D

Why does everyone hate on Lizard?  :'(

Your contributions to a thread dedicated strictly to Emerson Laker & Palmer are quite puzzling.  Are you here to actually discuss ELP, or merely to talk about King Crimson and Lizard?

Offline Man-Erg

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #76 on: January 28, 2013, 04:40:35 PM »

whoah hey, King Crimson did it a year before, it's called Lizard.

It's all right, not everyone is awesome enough to love Lizard.  ;D

Why does everyone hate on Lizard?  :'(

Your contributions to a thread dedicated strictly to Emerson Laker & Palmer are quite puzzling.  Are you here to actually discuss ELP, or merely to talk about King Crimson and Lizard?
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #77 on: January 28, 2013, 04:53:43 PM »
Don't do that.  It just seems kinda weird that you're pimping Lizard so hard.  True, King Crimson produced a side-long epic before ELP did, but for whatever reason, no one seems to consider Lizard in the running.  I've seen it mentioned on more than one site that Tarkus was the first, beating out Yes and Genesis.  And that's odd because King Crimson is often recognized as one of the first prog bands, so Lizard shouldn't be overlooked like that.

I can only conclude that it's because it's just not recognized as a cohesive work.  As I said, I haven't listened to it in a while, but I remember not being that impressed and getting the distinct impression that it was cobbled together.

Anyway, the topic is ELP, not Crimson.  Personally, I thought it was amusing that you were pushing Lizard and no one had a good answer for you.

Offline Man-Erg

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #78 on: January 28, 2013, 05:03:29 PM »
Don't do that.  It just seems kinda weird that you're pimping Lizard so hard.  True, King Crimson produced a side-long epic before ELP did, but for whatever reason, no one seems to consider Lizard in the running.  I've seen it mentioned on more than one site that Tarkus was the first, beating out Yes and Genesis.  And that's odd because King Crimson is often recognized as one of the first prog bands, so Lizard shouldn't be overlooked like that.

I can only conclude that it's because it's just not recognized as a cohesive work.  As I said, I haven't listened to it in a while, but I remember not being that impressed and getting the distinct impression that it was cobbled together.

Anyway, the topic is ELP, not Crimson.  Personally, I thought it was amusing that you were pushing Lizard and no one had a good answer for you.
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« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 05:17:17 PM by Man-Erg »

Offline ColdFireYYZ

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #79 on: January 28, 2013, 05:12:48 PM »
ELP was one of my first prog bands and Tarkus absolutely blew me away the first time I heard it. The b-sides are not bad and I never skip them but they prevent Tarkus from being a perfect album.

Offline ytserush

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #80 on: January 28, 2013, 06:27:18 PM »
I saw a video of some television thing he'd done a few years back, and I was amazed at how big he'd gotten, and also how much lower his voice is now.  I was thinking that he's easily a baritone now, going on bass, and eventually will go subsonic.  Only marine mammals will be able to hear him.

Then I caught the ELP 40th anniversary thing just a few weeks ago, and it was just depressing.  All the songs were in lower keys, slowed down at least a little, and neither Emerson nor Lake can really play anymore.  Emerson didn't even try to do the thing where he plays keyboards opposite of each other, or even two at once a lot of the time.  Lake didn't play much guitar, mostly letting Emerson play the songs on the keyboards.  My favorite Lake song of all, "The Sage" (from Pictures at an Exhibition) is voice and guitar, but instead, Emerson provided a nice keyboard backdrop and Lake just sang it.  Okay, it sounded great, but can Greg not even play and sing at the same time anymore?

I couldn't bring myself to watch/listen to that. I think I unintentionally stumbled on a clip from that show once and while it was better than I expected, it was still hard to watch. I last saw them on the Black Moon tour and Emerson was dropping notes all over the stage and that was when I decided never to see ELP live again  (I've seen Carl Palmer six times since). The last live recording I have from them was the Royal Albert Hall gig from that tour. Of course at that point I wasn't aware of all of the medical issues.

But yeah, I like Tarkus a lot (especially and not surprisingly more live) I like the B-side too as it provided the contrast between the and is another reminder that Emerson Lake and Palmer was not just an epic band, but was capable of writing shorter songs too and although quirky at times are still very listenable and uncompromising.




And for the record, I LOVE Lizard and King Crimson ( A LOT)

Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #81 on: January 28, 2013, 07:22:04 PM »
It's funny how most people seem to disregard Tarkus's B-Side when they first hear the album and are instead more prone to pimp the title-track.  However, when I first heard Tarkus (last year in fact), it was the songs after Tarkus that initially drew me in.  Maybe it was the fact that it was one of the last classic prog epics that I had listened to, having heard Lizard, Close To The Edge, and 2112 before, but it just really didn't wow me with that first listen.  It's stood out more on subsequent listens, but I guess, going in, expecting to be blown away by one of the founding songs of prog is probably setting oneself up for disappointment.

As for the other songs, I think it's criminal that they're overlooked as they're a lot more cohesive and fun than most of the stuff on their debut.  Sure the debut has The Barbarian, Knife-Edge and Lucky Man and, as good as it is, Take A Pebble feels like a couple of different ideas kinda mashed together.  Same with Three Fates, though I like it much, much less than Take A Pebble.

As for the Lizard vs Tarkus debate, if we're talking a battle of the title-tracks, I'll take Lizard any day of the week but I think the Tarkus album is probably the better, more consistent of the two.

Offline Orbert

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #82 on: January 28, 2013, 10:06:54 PM »
Okay, so I listened to Lizard (the title suite) tonight once, almost two times.  I'd forgotten that Jon Anderson sang "Prince Rupert Awakes".  So that was cool.  The problem is that after that song, things devolve into your typical King Crimson free-form improv fest.  It's interesting, but I can't listen to improv like that over and over.  I think the reason why it's not seriously considered in the running for Earliest Prog Epic is because it's mostly improv, not composed.  Heck, my buddies and I can jam in the basement and stumble upon some pretty good grooves too, but I'm not going to take a 20-minute chunk of tape and put it out there and call it an epic, which is pretty much what Fripp and Company have done here.  Now, I'm not claiming to play on the same level as Fripp, but when I listen to some of the free-form stuff that he commits to tape (and charges money for), I often find myself thinking "I could do that" and I don't think I'm wrong, at least not all the time.

I like a lot of King Crimson, but the improvised stuff usually doesn't grab me.  Not enough structure.  "Asbury Park" from U.S.A. kicks ass, and I've heard a few live versions of "The Talking Drum" that are pretty cool, but that's about it.  It seems to work better live, building a jam out of thin air.  In the studio, there's nothing to work with, no magic.

Offline jcmoorehead

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #83 on: January 29, 2013, 03:25:56 AM »
Just out of interest on the "epic song" debate but do Pink Floyd not factor into this, now I will admit I can't quite remember it due to only hearing it once when I was getting into Floyd and also not really being a big fan of stuff pre-Meddle (I like a few tracks) but what about the material on Atom Heart Mother? That was 23 minutes and released in 1970.

Onto the main subject of ELP though, Tarkus is the only ELP album I own, I'm interested in hearing more but I've just never really checked out any material. I first heard Tarkus via the cover on The Road Home and really enjoyed it and checked out the actual album. I do really enjoy it, not a big fan of the B Side but I think as others in the topic have said once you get past the epic at the start you're kind of worn out to hear anything else.

While I won't be contributing a lot to this topic I'm looking forward to reading peoples opinions and possible getting some stuff based on that, the Genesis thread was awesome and helped me fill in the gaps in my collection after reading what people thought of the various albums and seeing them laid out so I'm hoping this does the same.

Offline Jaq

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #84 on: January 29, 2013, 06:16:43 AM »
Okay, so I listened to Lizard (the title suite) tonight once, almost two times.  I'd forgotten that Jon Anderson sang "Prince Rupert Awakes".  So that was cool.  The problem is that after that song, things devolve into your typical King Crimson free-form improv fest.  It's interesting, but I can't listen to improv like that over and over.  I think the reason why it's not seriously considered in the running for Earliest Prog Epic is because it's mostly improv, not composed.  Heck, my buddies and I can jam in the basement and stumble upon some pretty good grooves too, but I'm not going to take a 20-minute chunk of tape and put it out there and call it an epic, which is pretty much what Fripp and Company have done here.  Now, I'm not claiming to play on the same level as Fripp, but when I listen to some of the free-form stuff that he commits to tape (and charges money for), I often find myself thinking "I could do that" and I don't think I'm wrong, at least not all the time.

I like a lot of King Crimson, but the improvised stuff usually doesn't grab me.  Not enough structure.  "Asbury Park" from U.S.A. kicks ass, and I've heard a few live versions of "The Talking Drum" that are pretty cool, but that's about it.  It seems to work better live, building a jam out of thin air.  In the studio, there's nothing to work with, no magic.

To be fair, though, that's applying your set of musical tastes to the argument. Lizard is, demonstrably, a song that stretches across the entire side of a vinyl album, released months before Tarkus. As, in fact, was Atom Heart Mother (and while I can understand why I forgot Lizard, I'm not sure how I managed to forget Atom Heart Mother.) And if you REALLY want to be pedantic, The Nice themselves released the Five Bridges Suite in 1970 and while only 18 minutes, it takes up the entirety of a vinyl side, and was written and performed in October 1969 and released in 1970 on record. Tarkus seems to be the side long epic which a lot of prog heads dub the first because, of the early long songs, it's the best realized, but there are at least three albums I know of right now that featured an entire side of music devoted to one concept that came out before Tarkus.

So...yeah. Tarkus wasn't the first side long epic. Just the first GOOD one.  :rollin
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Offline Nihil-Morari

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #85 on: January 29, 2013, 06:42:27 AM »
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Offline The Letter M

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #86 on: January 29, 2013, 06:53:22 AM »
Just sayin'

https://www.dprp.net/longsongs/longsongs.php?sort=year

Good point, but I think the real point here is whether or not "Tarkus" first did the side-length song/suite in a way that would be considered closer to being the first PROG ROCK piece. Sure, there's "Lizard", which really is a bit less formulaic, and "Atom Heart Mother" which is a bit more psychedelic than rock, but length does not mean proggy. It could be 20 minutes of body-noises set to a mellotron and a flute, but that doesn't mean it's prog.

I think "Tarkus" set a benchmark for side-length suites - it's in that 20-minute range and has 7 distinct movements, something that pieces like "Supper's Ready" and "2112" both share, and they would come years after "Tarkus". There's also VDGG's "A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers", which was recorded in the summer of '71 and released that October, just four months after Tarkus was released, so ELP weren't the only band working on side-length epics that year.

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Offline Pols Voice

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #87 on: January 29, 2013, 06:59:29 AM »
So uh, I'll just skip the current debate and say that I love Tarkus (the epic). The other songs range from bad to okay, but that epic, man. It's just great. And the album cover is one of my favorites ever, because it's just so crazy.

Previously I was only familiar with Tarkus and Pictures at an Exhibition, but because of this thread I gave a listen to all of ELP's studio albums. I still think the two I knew are my favorites, although the debut and Trilogy are also good. Strangely, I also enjoyed Black Moon...not to jump ahead or anything.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #88 on: January 29, 2013, 07:37:46 AM »
Feel free to jump in at any time.  ELP is pretty crazy stuff, so I'm not surprised that you currently favor the ones you're more familiar with, or that Black Moon also grabs you, since it came much later and is more accessible than the early stuff.

So...yeah. Tarkus wasn't the first side long epic. Just the first GOOD one.  :rollin

Heh heh, I wasn't gonna come right out and say that in my own thread, but I'm glad someone else did, because that's basically it for me.

I think the real point here is whether or not "Tarkus" first did the side-length song/suite in a way that would be considered closer to being the first PROG ROCK piece. Sure, there's "Lizard", which really is a bit less formulaic, and "Atom Heart Mother" which is a bit more psychedelic than rock, but length does not mean proggy.

And this.  I have trouble counting "Lizard" because most of it is improvised.  Some of "Atom Heart Mother" feels that way as well, although with Pink Floyd sometimes it's harder to tell.  The rest of that list, I wouldn't consider prog, except for The Nice.  I guess they don't count because they were much less known or something.

Offline The Letter M

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #89 on: January 29, 2013, 07:43:56 AM »
And this.  I have trouble counting "Lizard" because most of it is improvised.  Some of "Atom Heart Mother" feels that way as well, although with Pink Floyd sometimes it's harder to tell.  The rest of that list, I wouldn't consider prog, except for The Nice.  I guess they don't count because they were much less known or something.

I think that accounts for something - ELP were a super-group of rock stars back then. I wasn't alive in the early 70's, but I'm sure with a fantastic debut album, they had already garnered a sizable audience for themselves, both in the art-rock world and in the rock genre in general, especially with a single like "Lucky Man". So releasing a side-long epic on their SECOND album was a big deal, and made the idea of that more well-known. I'm not sure how popular Pink Floyd's AHM or King Crimson's "Lizard" were compared to "Tarkus", but I feel like the latter would have been more well-known, and thus, more accepted as the benchmark for art-rock side-length epics.

It's also been awhile since I've listened to AHM or "Lizard" - do these songs contain movements with reprises? It seems that many epics, at least the well-known ones, contain some sort of thematic/motif reprisals throughout or at the end of the piece, like in "Tarkus" with the opening and closing movements. I think that sets "Tarkus" apart from it's predecessors.

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Offline Nihil-Morari

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #90 on: January 29, 2013, 08:04:31 AM »
I agree with you Marc. I guess they were the first showing a big audience that a sidelong epic was actually a possibility within that thing called 'music'. Therefore they progressed music, and could very well have made the first Prog Epic.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #91 on: January 29, 2013, 08:07:23 AM »
"Lizard" starts with a five-minute song, but the rest of it is instrumental and largely improvised, so it does not come across as a cohesive work and is not even composed as one.  A side-long artistic statement, yes, but for that matter so was "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida".

"Atom Heart Mother" is more structured, but it has a few sections that meander a bit.  Because of the scored orchestral and choir bits, it comes across as a more cohesive work.  It's hard to really consider it a "song" because there are no words, although I suppose that's not really a requirement.  It does feel more like psychedelia than prog, but genre can be a tough call.

"Tarkus" is both fully composed and more structured.  It has recurring musical themes and clearly is intended as a single work.  Until I review those earlier works by The Nice, I'd say "Tarkus" has the best claim to the title because it's an actual composed piece.

Offline Nihil-Morari

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #92 on: January 29, 2013, 08:09:09 AM »
What about 'In Held Twas In I'?
I must say I've heard it once, but now I think of it, I can only think of the Transatlantic version.
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Offline The Letter M

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #93 on: January 29, 2013, 08:32:57 AM »
What about 'In Held Twas In I'?
I must say I've heard it once, but now I think of it, I can only think of the Transatlantic version.

Ditto, and even then, the TA version is missing a section. Also, "In Held 'Twas In I" wasn't the only song on it's side of vinyl as it was preceded by another track, "Magdalene (My Regal Zonophone)". So if we're being nit-picky here, it's not technically a FULL side-length track in that it doesn't take up the WHOLE side/isn't the only track on that side of vinyl.

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #94 on: January 29, 2013, 08:37:57 AM »
Being nit-picky is what this entire discussion is about, haha! So fair enough, ELP: douze points.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #95 on: January 29, 2013, 11:09:07 AM »
Being nit-picky is what this entire discussion is about, haha!

Absolutely.  Progheads talking about prog.  It doesn't get any better (or worse) than that.

Offline Orbert

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #96 on: February 01, 2013, 08:21:05 AM »
Fun fact: for a spell back in the 90s, I had TARKUS as my personalized license plate.

I'm just re-reading the Tarkus comments, getting ready for the next installment, and realized that no one commented on this.  Kudos!  Wear your proghead badge proudly!

In Illinois, a "Personalized" license plate has letters followed by numbers, as with a regular state-issued plate.  You pay more for it initially, then when you renew it each year, it costs the same as a regular plate.

A "Vanity" plate is whatever you want, as long as it's not obscene or something.  "TARKUS" would be a Vanity plate, and not only do you pay more up front, but you pay more every year to renew it.  The cost of vanity, I suppose.  That's why you see things like "TARKUS 1" or someone's name followed by "1".  By adding a number to it, it's Personalized, not Vanity, so it renews at the same charge.

I wanted to get "KARN EVIL 9" to avoid the extra charge every year.  It would be worth it as a one-time charge.  But it's too many letters, so I'd have to go with "KRN EVL 9" or something.  Which I guess would be cool, a nice inside rebus for anyone who recognizes it, but in general I wouldn't like having it abbreviated.

I considered "POEM 58" for a while, too.  I still might get that someday.  The problem is that if it's already taken, they automatically add 1 to the number, and "POEM 59" makes no sense.  I'd rather not even have it, but by then I'll have already paid for it.

First world problems.

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #97 on: February 01, 2013, 11:56:45 AM »
I've been lurking on this thread and was going to comment on Kev's comment when I actually got around to commenting ;)


Out of all of the "classic" prog bands (Pink Floyd excluded), ELP is the one that has been easiest to get into. When I started going through this thread a few days ago, I gave the Self Titled, Tarkus and Brain Salad Surgery a deep run through.... and then Welcome Back My Friends....  I am now officially obsessed.

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I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #98 on: February 01, 2013, 12:22:36 PM »
Fun fact: for a spell back in the 90s, I had TARKUS as my personalized license plate.

I'm just re-reading the Tarkus comments, getting ready for the next installment, and realized that no one commented on this.  Kudos!  Wear your proghead badge proudly!
 

 :tup :tup

IIRC, I only kept it for a year or two, before then getting...*drum roll*...21DOCE.  2112 was taken, so since DOCE is 12 in Spanish, I went with that.  All of my Rush friends thought it was clever; non-fans weren't so sure. :lol :lol

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #99 on: February 01, 2013, 12:27:06 PM »
IIRC, I only kept it for a year or two, before then getting...*drum roll*...21DOCE.  2112 was taken, so since DOCE is 12 in Spanish, I went with that.  All of my Rush friends thought it was clever; non-fans weren't so sure. :lol :lol

 :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

-BlobVanDam on "Scarred"

Offline Jaq

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #100 on: February 01, 2013, 06:10:25 PM »
Fun fact: for a spell back in the 90s, I had TARKUS as my personalized license plate.

I'm just re-reading the Tarkus comments, getting ready for the next installment, and realized that no one commented on this.  Kudos!  Wear your proghead badge proudly!
 

 :tup :tup

IIRC, I only kept it for a year or two, before then getting...*drum roll*...21DOCE.  2112 was taken, so since DOCE is 12 in Spanish, I went with that.  All of my Rush friends thought it was clever; non-fans weren't so sure. :lol :lol

 :rollin

I am reminded-holy shit here comes a Jaq story from the 80s song thread in a discography thread-of when the girl I lost my virginity to got her first car. She worked long and hard coming up with a license plate for it, and finally settled on OYOYOY. She was going for "Oh why oh why oh why" but endlessly had to field the question "why does your license plate say "Oi Oi Oi?" And endless peals of laughter from me when we'd go anywhere and AC/DC's TNT would come on the radio.

Beautiful girl. Best legs I've ever seen. Oh, oh so very dumb.
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings become dust in the wake of the hymn.
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall, no more than a breath on the wind.

Offline ytserush

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #101 on: February 01, 2013, 06:47:29 PM »
And this.  I have trouble counting "Lizard" because most of it is improvised.  Some of "Atom Heart Mother" feels that way as well, although with Pink Floyd sometimes it's harder to tell.  The rest of that list, I wouldn't consider prog, except for The Nice.  I guess they don't count because they were much less known or something.

I think that accounts for something - ELP were a super-group of rock stars back then. I wasn't alive in the early 70's, but I'm sure with a fantastic debut album, they had already garnered a sizable audience for themselves, both in the art-rock world and in the rock genre in general, especially with a single like "Lucky Man". So releasing a side-long epic on their SECOND album was a big deal, and made the idea of that more well-known. I'm not sure how popular Pink Floyd's AHM or King Crimson's "Lizard" were compared to "Tarkus", but I feel like the latter would have been more well-known, and thus, more accepted as the benchmark for art-rock side-length epics.

It's also been awhile since I've listened to AHM or "Lizard" - do these songs contain movements with reprises? It seems that many epics, at least the well-known ones, contain some sort of thematic/motif reprisals throughout or at the end of the piece, like in "Tarkus" with the opening and closing movements. I think that sets "Tarkus" apart from it's predecessors.

-Marc.

Has anyone actually LISTENED to The Nice other than what ELP covered? Listen to the Five Bridges Suite for starters.

I'm not arguing who was first.

The Nice were kind of a precursor to what ELP became (or the better Nice as critics always seem to say) just like what '60s Floyd and Yes were to what each band became in the early '70s. 

King Crimson is it's own amazing animal entirely and probably in their own class when Lake was in the band and most certainly after he left.



Whenever I hear Tarkus, I've always thinking of Neal Morse dancing around the living room with his kids during one of the making of documentaries (I have no idea which one, aren't there like 10 now?) I always thought that was funny, especially because it's been sometimes known to happen in our house (not specifically Tarkus, but other similar music).

Also Santa brought me the Steven Wilson version of Tarkus and it does sound different to me.  The bonus tracks are also great. Listened to it a lot over the holidays, but haven't touched it since. I have to make space and put it with the Mobile Fidelity version of Tarkus, which I think still sounds better.

Offline Jaq

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Tarkus (1971)
« Reply #102 on: February 01, 2013, 07:07:46 PM »
I've listened to the Nice, which is why I think anyone making a case for them being the first prog band has a point. People tend to get hung up on defining prog by how it turned out, not by how it came to be, so they like to point at the most recognizable and best known moments. The Nice kicked ass.
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings become dust in the wake of the hymn.
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall, no more than a breath on the wind.

Offline Orbert

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Emerson Lake & Palmer: Pictures at an Exhibition (1971)
« Reply #103 on: February 01, 2013, 10:55:30 PM »
Mussorgsky Emerson Lake & Palmer: Pictures at an Exhibition (1971)



The inside gatefold with the frames filled in.  Once again, I wish I could find a larger version.


Promenade
The Gnome
Promenade
The Sage
The Old Castle
Blues Variation
Promenade
The Hut of Baba Yaga
The Curse of Baba Yaga
The Hut of Baba Yaga
The Great Gates of Kiev
The End
Nutrocker

----------

Tarkus was recorded in January 1971 and released in June that same year.  Pictures at an Exhibition was recorded live during a show in March 1971.  This means that with Tarkus barely in the bag, and presumably featuring prominently in their concerts, Emerson Lake & Palmer were also performing a fully realized adaptation of Modest Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition.

Okay, maybe not a full adapation.  Mussorgsky's original suite had interpretations of 10 paintings by his friend Viktor Hartmann, linked by a returning "Promenade" theme representing the walk from one painting to the next.  ELP's arrangment only treats four of the paintings plus the Promenade, but it also adds variations/extrapolations to two of them, and a new acoustic song by Lake ("The Sage") fits nicely into the suite.

Overall, it is a rather faithful adaptation.  The movements omitted from the original are the shorter, less memorable pieces.  The first several movements are present, as is the closing piece "The Great Gates of Kiev", so the listener is left well satisfied.  ELP's version is of comparable length to the original suite, just under 40 minutes.  If all ten paintings had gotten the fully ELP treatment, their version would have easily gone an hour or longer.

Emerson Lake & Palmer's love of classical music and adapating it to the rock and rock genre hit its peak here, filling an entire LP.  (Even the encore, "Nutrocker", is an adaptation of a work by another famous Russian composer, Tchaikovsky.)  I recently listened to a full orchestral version of Pictures at an Exhibition and was amazed at how much it sounded like the ELP version.  Nowadays, it's cool to adapt rock music for an orchestra, and that's what it sounded like to me.  It sounded like someone had taken one of my favorite works by ELP and orchestrated it.  I had to keep reminding myself that the classical version came first.

The album is not perfect.  One thing that I prefer with a live album is that it be edited so as to resemble a contiguous performance.  I like to hear applause between songs of course, and then after a moment, either the front man introduces the next song or the band just start playing.  The first song should sound like an opener and the last song should sound like a closer; bonus points if you actually hear them say "Hello" at the beginning and "Good Night" at the end.  That kind of thing.  Even if the songs came from completely different shows, it's possible to blend the applause and make it sound like it's all a single piece of a tape from a single concert.

Here, after Lake introduces the suite, the audience responds, then quiets, then there is an obvious edit, then the music begins.  The edit takes us out of the moment, and that's unfortunate, because what follows is 33+ minutes of very powerful classical rock.  The opening Promenade is performed on the pipe organ.  After a drum fill (giving Emerson time to get from the organ console to the stage) we're treated to our first painting ("The Gnome") featuring Hammond organ, bass, drums, and of course the Modular Moog synthesizer.  When the Promenade returns, Lake has added lyrics to it, and a brief interlude on the Moog takes us into his song "The Sage".  Lyrically, there is nothing to indicate that this isn't an interpretation of one of the paintings.

"The Old Castle" continues the suite proper, leading into a bit known simply as "Blues Variations".  The Promenade returns again, then "The Hut of Baba Yaga" (including "The Curse of Baba Yaga"), and then the concluding piece, "The Great Gates of Kiev", again featuring lyrics added by Lake.  After a great ovation, Lake asks "Do you want some more music?" and the crowd roars its response.  Then there is another obvious edit, then the encore begins.

I want to harm whoever edited this album.  Even in 1971, I'm sure the technology existed to blend the applause and hide the edits better than what we got.  There are only the two bad edits, but they mar the first impression and leave a poor last impression, and that's just unfortunate.  Supposedly, Atlantic didn't want to release the album on Cotillion, but instead on their classical label, since it was an adaptation of a classical work.  ELP didn't think that that was a good idea at all, and opted instead to shelf the album.  Only after the success of Tarkus did Atlantic agree to release Pictures at an Exhibition, so it's possible that the mastering was rushed.  I'm just speculating; I have no idea, but I can't think of any excuse for such poor edits.  They really do mar an otherwise great album.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 11:09:32 AM by Orbert »

Offline Jaq

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Re: Emerson Lake & Palmer: Pictures at an Exhibition (1971)
« Reply #104 on: February 02, 2013, 06:56:57 AM »
I actually never listened to Pictures at an Exhibition until this thread, where I went through ELP's discography in order to fill in the holes, which mainly was Pictures and the two 90s albums. As I never really connected with ELP like I did with Genesis and Yes, my primary interests were the self titled, Brain Salad Surgery, Trilogy, and Welcome Back My Friends. Pictures was always one of the albums I'd say "eh, I'll get around to eventually." My more cynical side, when considering how often the early rock experiments with classical music wound up sounding either pretentious or limited by the recording technology of the times, gave it a slide because I was pretty sure that even back when I got into ELP ages ago, Pictures was going to sound like a lot of those earnest, well meaning experiments that came off poorly after the fact.

Shows what I know.

Pictures works because, unlike ELP's later work with an orchestra on the Works album-which these days DOES come off sounding as one of those earnest, well meaning experiments that comes off poorly after the fact-it's arranged for the rock band format. It's just Emerson, Lake, and Palmer, not ELP competing for space with an orchestra, and it's ELP being ELP. Emerson gets to work on the Moog and play the hell out of the organ. Palmer gets to hit every drum within reach, and Lake gets to have a lovely acoustic moment with The Sage that's better than most, if not all, of the band's acoustic ballads. The piece moves at a great, always interesting pace, until it builds to the purely magnificent climax of The Great Gates of Kiev, which is one of the best moments in ELP's career. I said earlier in this thread that I always approached ELP's music from a reserve, appreciating it technically but never emotionally, but here, listening to Pictures a long time after the fact, ELP finally managed to move me. To the point that, honestly, if I was to make a list of ELP's albums, only Brain Salad Surgery would definitely be ahead of this, with Tarkus tied with it. Funny how that turned out, with the album I avoided for so long.
The bones of beasts and the bones of kings become dust in the wake of the hymn.
Mighty kingdoms rise, but they all will fall, no more than a breath on the wind.