DT in the studio again!

[TheGreatPretender]

Still nothing new, really. Although it's understandable that they are deliberately avoiding precise questions on the new record, besides the JM exception.

Well, there are probably certain things they're not allowed to say. Still, the things they CAN say, I wish they would.

[TheAtliator]

If you really need sarcasm green, you're probably missing the point.

That's why I didn't do it originally! It's a really clear point! Especially if you read my other comments. You can see Dream Theater has earned so much respect from me, that when I don't understand/like something of theirs the first time I see/hear it, I have reason to believe I'm just not seeing the whole picture. There have been a lot of times that I've realized the brilliance of something of theirs after a long time of knowing it.

[TheGreatPretender]

That's why I didn't do it originally! It's a really clear point! Especially if you read my other comments. You can see Dream Theater has earned so much respect from me, that when I don't understand/like something of theirs the first time I see/hear it, I have reason to believe I'm just not seeing the whole picture. There have been a lot of times that I've realized the brilliance of something of theirs after a long time of knowing it.

Where did that original comment about Metropolis come from though? I totally missed what it had to do with the conversation, so I was just really confused when I read it.

[DebraKadabra]

If you really need sarcasm green, you're probably missing the point.

Cle-verrrr.

[hefdaddy42]

I feel like the songs that people praise with "thought-provoking" don't really mean anything... I've tried analyzing Breaking All Illusions, Metropolis, etc. through and through again and I've come to the personal conclusion that it's pretentious gibberish, which is how I feel about Myung lyrics in general (I love JMX! But I just don't understand all the love for his lyrics!)

I don't understand these lyrics.

They must be pretentious gibberish.

Even if they do have some sort of meaning, they just really bother me. I feel like they are trying to get some sort of deep message across, but don't manage to and end up sounding ridiculous. They seem rather self-indulgent to me. Radiohead, for instance, manages to have really thought-provoking lyrics without sounding silly, like they really understand what they're trying to say, and don't make it obvious. I honestly don't think if a band member was asked what Under a Glass Moon was about, they'd be able to give you a good answer...

OK.

[lyfeternl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExKRUJMoyk4

Dream Theater Twitter Q&A with Jordan Rudess, How do you start a new song composition?

Dream Theater: Planting their seed to achieve musical consummation

[TheAtliator]

Where did that original comment about Metropolis come from though? I totally missed what it had to do with the conversation, so I was just really confused when I read it.

"I don't understand these lyrics. They must be pretentious gibberish."

"I have no idea what time signature they think they're playing in, obviously these guys just don't know what they're doing."

I mean really guys the first time anyone listens to Dream Theater, they don't get it. I'm sure we can all relate to this- trying to show Dream Theater to a friend who just doesn't get it and says they don't like it, but we know that if they were to listen closer and try to understand it, they would LOVE it. And not only that, but they would greatly benefit from the expanding of their mind.

So what is it, now that you're a DT fan, you are done and exempt from growing or thinking?

[TheGreatPretender]

"I don't understand these lyrics. They must be pretentious gibberish."

"I have no idea what time signature they think they're playing in, obviously these guys just don't know what they're doing."

Ohh, okay, I see. You were juxtaposing. I wasn't sure how talking about lyrics went to talking about the music itself. But okay, I understand now.

The problem I have with lyrics like Lifting Shadows isn't that they're unclear, or too poetic, or pretentious, or whatever. It's that they're a little too vague. Yes, they easily allow a person to make the song about whatever it means to them personally, but I just feel like it's a little vague in that respect. It's the same thing with "The Answer Lies Within". I love the song, but the lyrics almost feel like that standard Disney Princess song, that's in every one of their movies, where the princess sings about how she wants to break away from it all, she want's more, she wants it. But what the hell is she talking about exactly?
Now, I'm not saying this is the case, but the lyrics end up being so vague, that it feels like even the writer doesn't know what the song is about. It's like all those 80's songs that say, "I will steak my claim! I will go get it!" But there's no actual personal meaning behind it at all, it just feels like they're writing vague lyrics just for the sake of saying, "Well, this way the fans will make it about something personal to them." Which is okay, but at least SOME clarity usually works best, which is why I actually prefer the lyrics to songs like These Walls and Beneath The Surface, where even though there is some clarity to them, and they clearly have a particular message in mind, but they still allow for infinite interpretations.

And sure, it's possible that I'm not fully understanding the lyrics to LSOAD, but I actually prefer it when I don't understand them BECAUSE they're specific. Like, "Once again we dance in the crowd at times a step away.." that whole section, I don't know what the hell it's about! But I love it, because it... Ahem... Evokes such interesting images with its words...

[Perpetual Change]

TGP, I'd recommend sitting in on a few poetry classes.

Though if you just prefer lyrics where everything's spelled-out, Ayreon has like 5 albums 

[TheGreatPretender]

Though if you just prefer lyrics where everything's spelled-out, Ayreon has like 5 albums 

I just said I loved the lyrics in Learning to Live and of course, there's Metropolis. If that's spelling everything out, then, I don't know what's considered 'poetry' anymore.

[hefdaddy42]

The Answer Lies Within is not vague at all.  It's just cliched as hell.

[Perpetual Change]

Well honestly, I just reread your post, and I'm not really sure either of us know what you're saying  I think you're saying you like lyrics with lots of imagery, whether you understand it or not. And LSOAD is too abstract? I agree that parts are weird (what's the title even mean?) but there's lots of great imagery in that song, too.

[hefdaddy42]

The motif of water is particularly well used in LSOAD.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well honestly, I just reread your post, and I'm not really sure either of us know what you're saying  I think you're saying you like lyrics with lots of imagery, whether you understand it or not. And LSOAD is too abstract? I agree that parts are weird (what's the title even mean?) but there's lots of great imagery in that song, too.

No, you're right. It's not the abstractness of LSOAD that I'm saying turns me off, it's that the message behind it just that the message seems a little flimsy. "Lifting Shadows off a Dream once broken," I mean, hefdaddy thinks that TALW is a cliche'? Well, I think LSOAD is just as much of a cliche' that's merely disguised in some creative poetry. And yes, good on Myung for making use of that poetry, but while it makes the wording more interesting, it doesn't make the message any deeper or more thought provoking.

[hefdaddy42]

Nothing cliche about LSOAD.

[Ben_Jamin]

Werent all of Myungs lyrics reworked from his freebase style he presented them in?

[TheGreatPretender]

Nothing cliche about LSOAD.

Then please enlighten me on what the lyrics are about. What is this original and unique message that LSOAD is trying to present?

[TheAtliator]

If it's so vague, how come I was able to figure out exactly what it means?

[Mladen]

We can only speculate, nobody can really tell what it's about. That's what's so rewarding about JM's lyrics, you're allowed to interpret them in whatever way you want. I did it, and now I see it as the most meaningful and deep Dream Theater song lyrically. So take your time and try to come up with something, it wouldn't be fun if a whole bunch of us gave away our own ideas before you. 

[TheGreatPretender]

If it's so vague, how come I was able to figure out exactly what it means?

We can only speculate, nobody can really tell what it's about. That's what's so rewarding about JM's lyrics, you're allowed to interpret them in whatever way you want. I did it, and now I see it as the most meaningful and deep Dream Theater song lyrically. So take your time and try to come up with something, it wouldn't be fun if a whole bunch of us gave away our own ideas before you. 

So which is it? Is there a way to figure out EXACTLY what it means? Or can we only speculate and interpret them in whatever ways we want?

It feels like even the people defending it are split.

[TheAtliator]

So which is it? Is there a way to figure out EXACTLY what it means? Or can we only speculate and interpret them in whatever ways we want?

It feels like even the people defending it are split.

I can only speak for myself, but with everything I know put into account, I can say I am almost positive about what I think the song is about. Of course I have my own reasons it relates to me personally, and I can only speculate that the song was written to inspire someone in a similar position to mine.

Then please enlighten me on what the lyrics are about. What is this original and unique message that LSOAD is trying to present?

I'd love to. But, it's not simple. It would take a LOOONGG time for me to explain the whole thing (first clue it's not totally cliche), but I'll give you some insight as to what I think it's about. I know you are talking to hefdaddy42, but I'm just saying I'd like to also.

Remember on the 5YIALT commentary they asked JM to finally say what LSOAD is about and he said it was too long? Ok well maybe it's not too long if they wanted to take up the rest of the commentary, but for the men who wrote it to do it any justice, it would take a while.

[Mladen]

It feels like even the people defending it are split.

Now that's interesting.  I guess some people might be sure they figured out what the lyrics exactly mean, but I wouldn't think so.

[hefdaddy42]

Nothing cliche about LSOAD.

Then please enlighten me on what the lyrics are about. What is this original and unique message that LSOAD is trying to present?

Do you know what "cliche" means?

[gmillerdrake]

I enjoy JMX's lyrics because he's an abstract writer. It's not that his lyrics mean something specific per say, but he structures them in such a way that the same song or verse can mean completely different things to different people.
  There are abstract artists, there are artists that are into realism. Same thing in writing  but I think it's called abstract and concrete writing. With concrete writers being very specific. I think JP and JLB are a good mixture of both styles but JMX...to me...seems to be an abstract writer and I love that type of lyric.

[TheGreatPretender]

Do you know what "cliche" means?

Yes. Now either explain to me why LSOAD is not a cliche' or stop being so condescending.

[emblempride]

It's not obvious, but honestly, LSOAD isn't vague, UAGM totally is but the simultaneous beauty and ambiguity in the lyrics is my favorite part of the song... You know, aside from that perfect guitar solo. But anyways, LSOAD is about a man's trepidation towards a relationship and love, but he's not sure why he feels that way. But he is eventually able to "pour his soul into the water". Kind of simplifying it, but yeah. LtL, BAI, and ToT are all heavily existentialist, and if Fatal Tragedy is vague then my mind is fuck. And a cliche is a trend or phrase so overused that it is dull or has changed meaning. LSOAD is as much a cliche as red is green.

[TheGreatPretender]

It's not obvious, but honestly, LSOAD isn't vague, UAGM totally is but the simultaneous beauty and ambiguity in the lyrics is my favorite part of the song... You know, aside from that perfect guitar solo. But anyways, LSOAD is about a man's trepidation towards a relationship and love, but he's not sure why he feels that way. But he is eventually able to "pour his soul into the water". Kind of simplifying it, but yeah. LtL, BAI, and ToT are all heavily existentialist, and if Fatal Tragedy is vague then my mind is fuck. And a cliche is a trend or phrase so overused that it is dull or has changed meaning. LSOAD is as much a cliche as red is green.

Well, see, I never in a million years would have guessed that's what the song is actually about.

[?]

What is LSOAD about?

... that song is more or less just reflecting the duality that exists between a man and a woman; the spiritual side of the relationship & how they both can compliment one another.

[wasteland]

What is LSOAD about?

... that song is more or less just reflecting the duality that exists between a man and a woman; the spiritual side of the relationship & how they both can compliment one another.

I didn't know that, it's a wonderful subject. I should have a re-read of the lyrics.

[The Stray Seed]

From a poetic point of view, LSOAD is simply one of the best songs of DT discography.

The lyrics provide a fascinating and delicate dreamlike atmosphere. Everything is so fragile and uncertain, that it really reflects the mood you get from some of key moments of a love affair. You are lifting off but you may fall at any moment ("breaking delicate wings"), you feel that powerful emotional drive but at the same time you are afraid of what can be next, or fear that any wrong move might spoilt everything off ("moved by desire and fear"). The magic of a relationship can be very fragile, but still nonetheless mind blowing.

LSOAD pictures love as a spiritual experience, something that transcends reality, and this effort is typically poetic, from any point of view; but instead of ending up with something cliched, JM succeds in one of the toughest challenge for a writer: talking about a classic topic in an original way.

Also from a stylistic point of view, the song is very well written. It even uses figures of speech of great effect, such as in the line "the chill of winter's darkness sits quietly" where an anthropomorphization is used to enhance an already powerful scenery.

Last but not least, the lyrics fit simply perfectly to the music.

[hefdaddy42]

Do you know what "cliche" means?

Yes. Now either explain to me why LSOAD is not a cliche' or stop being so condescending.

I wasn't being condescending.  I was asking whether or not you knew what "cliche" means.  It's when a phrase has been so overused that it is no longer relevant.  It has nothing to do with being vague or not understanding what something means. 

TALW is loaded with cliches.  Which lyrics in LSOAD strike you as cliche? 

[robwebster]

I'm not going to get too embroiled in this, cos I've had this conversation a few times before, and I don't know that I've got much to say that I haven't already said - but I basically agree with the Great Pretender and wanted to quickly lend my view. That said, I'm feeling a bit monosyllabic right now, so I'm just going to copy and paste from an old thread. I hope everyone's okay with this.

I've got one. I really don't know why everyone freaks out about JMX writing lyrics. I don't think they're that great. Other than BAI, which I really like.. but then again, JP helped with that one, so who knows what JMX actually wrote. But I really don't see what the deal is with songs like Lifting Shadows.

I think why people like JM lyrics is cuz he writes "cryptic" lyrics in that they give the listener breathing room to interpret them how they want.  Kevin Moore wrote the same way.  Most of the other guys write "literal" lyrics that are just so obvious what the song is about and it really stifles any opportunity for the listener to have a personal connection unless they can directly relate to them.

I broadly agree with Lord of the Strings, but I do like it when JM contributes simply because it adds another voice to the band.

I do think John's lyrics are a little samey, though, and they threaten to become word salad in places. They've got pleasant imagery, and they're broadly uplifting, but I think he's a good lyricist with his own strengths and flaws just like any of the others. I also think that as he writes so sparingly, we don't see as much of the weakness or the repetition as we have and do with other lyricists. If Myung was writing seven songs per album and Petrucci was writing one every four years(ish) I don't think the band's lyrics would be any better. Again, just different strengths and weaknesses. Same goes for Kev! Perfectly good writer, interesting stuff to say and he expresses it well, but he's not exceptional.

Honestly, my least favourite DT lyricist? Early-90s Petrucci. It's pleasant, but it's... just nonsense, isn't it? Even he couldn't tell you what Under a Glass Moon is about. Much better nowadays. Misunderstood is, in my (possibly controversial, possibly not!) opinion, the band's finest lyrical moment. It's the balance. It's evocative, plenty of images, parallels, but it's also close enough to be relatable. Makes you feel something. "Never use a long word when a short one will do" - George Orwell! Wrapping your point in layer upon layer of abstract imagery and metaphor isn't a good way to connect to your listener. UaGM sounds pretty enough, but I couldn't be more disconnected if I tried.

This also goes for a lot of fan favourites - Voices, Scarred. I'm glad someone else is getting something from them. That's grand, I'm glad they're as popular as they are, and it's clearly me who's missing out. But I am missing out. I'm just getting a list of metaphors. Not cogent, there's no connection - Voices goes from a spider to an angel to an old man to a newsstand. It doesn't take me anywhere. I mean, yes, it takes me to a pool, and a window, and a newsagents, but that's not a journey, that's a slideshow. There's no comment, it's just "look at this spider." Erratic. Whatever it's alluding to, whatever statement it's making, it's not made within the song. I find it a bit - whisper it - dull!

Not that I'm saying diverse imagery can't work. Petrucci sticks with the disparate image thing for pretty much his whole career, but it's fair to say he improves as he goes along. Images feel connected in later songs. "Playing a lion being led to a cage, I turn from a thief to a beggar, from a god to God, save me," not only have you got a strong biblical imagery, but there's a very clear vein of strength-to-weakness. I'm sure there's something like that in Voices, too, but you have to dig pretty deep, and possibly double check in an encyclopedia. The song's not making the statement.

Right, now, someone say something more controversial so nobody reads this! Bring back Mike Portnoy! John Myung looks better in white! David Prater was the only man who ever understood what Dream Theater really means!

[Perpetual Change]

Not trying to be mean, Rob, but... if you can't muster up an interpretation of Voices or Scarred, or Under a Glass Moon, you're just not trying very hard.

Same with The Great Pretender with LSOAD. It's not James Joyce. I'd be willing to bet that if you guys spent half the amount of time you've spent bashing these lyrics actually trying to interpret them, you'd come up with something decent

[theseoafs]

There's no comment, it's just "look at this spider." Erratic. Whatever it's alluding to, whatever statement it's making, it's not made within the song. I find it a bit - whisper it - dull!

Well, I guess "look at this spider" has more of an effect on you if you're really fucking scared of spiders like I am.

[Perpetual Change]

Anyway, I'd like to direct participants of this thread to my complaint here: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=36480.0

Meanwhile, new thread here: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=36495.0