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Your Controversial Opinions on DT

Started by Lucidity, December 17, 2012, 07:28:25 PM

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Setlist Scotty

Quote from: Cool Chris on February 18, 2022, 08:22:44 PM
Regarding the second part, I know you are more tuned in than I am, but do we know this is true? Maybe they are tapped out once the hit a CD's worth of material. If not, then I would agree with your premise, as it goes along with my more music and less touring ideal.

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on February 18, 2022, 07:59:19 PM
...given the wealth of ideas they come up with, to follow their collective muse and continue writing until they feel tapped out.
It's true. There have been numerous interviews where they've commented on how they have a wealth of ideas and that not all of them end up getting used. I actually brought this up when JP and JR did an online chat and here's their response:
https://youtu.be/li9kJdJ5L9c?t=741
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2015, 07:37:14 PMAs a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.
Quote from: TAC on July 10, 2024, 08:26:41 AMPOW is awesome! :P

Kocak

Quote from: Kotowboy on June 26, 2021, 04:13:08 AM
SoA sound  just like another one of MPs side projects that will likely last a maximum of 3 studio albums and 3 live DVDs then call it a day before he moves on.

He needs to stop writing and recording all his albums in like a a week and really focus on writing a GREAT album that will stand up

to DT's best work. Didn't SOA have two songs that sounded exactly the same on their last album ?

That's what happens when you force yourself to write an hour of music in 7 days.

I 100% agree with this.

Also, MP today would not be able to play most of the Mangini tracks. He has regressed as a drummer. He has not added anything new to his style, I reckon it's one of the reasons why some have a hard time listening to his stuff now.

My controversial DT opinion:

JP should stick to composing and arranging and leave the production of DT albums to someone else entirely and stay out of the studio when the album is getting mixed.

Dream Team

Yeah but they save a lot of money not hiring a producer.

Cool Chris

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on February 19, 2022, 06:20:02 AM
Quote from: Cool Chris on February 18, 2022, 08:22:44 PM
Regarding the second part, I know you are more tuned in than I am, but do we know this is true? Maybe they are tapped out once the hit a CD's worth of material. If not, then I would agree with your premise, as it goes along with my more music and less touring ideal.

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on February 18, 2022, 07:59:19 PM
...given the wealth of ideas they come up with, to follow their collective muse and continue writing until they feel tapped out.
It's true. There have been numerous interviews where they've commented on how they have a wealth of ideas and that not all of them end up getting used. I actually brought this up when JP and JR did an online chat and here's their response:
https://youtu.be/li9kJdJ5L9c?t=741

Thank you for posting. I do not read/watch interviews with the band much at all do don't deep dive in to such topics unless it is discussed here. 

Kocak

Quote from: Dream Team on February 19, 2022, 07:02:53 AM
Yeah but they save a lot of money not hiring a producer.

This could, in theory, compromise the quality of material, leading to less profit in the long run.

jadiggerdt


UndercoverMyung

Quote from: Trav86 on February 19, 2022, 05:33:59 AM


Now Mike. If he wanted to leave, I'd be okay with Portnoy coming back. Hell, they barely play the MM era songs if they aren't on the newest album anyway.

Oh piss off.
Stop with this bullshit. It's been 10+ years. Get over it.

Trav86

Quote from: UndercoverMyung on February 20, 2022, 10:04:54 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 19, 2022, 05:33:59 AM


Now Mike. If he wanted to leave, I'd be okay with Portnoy coming back. Hell, they barely play the MM era songs if they aren't on the newest album anyway.

Oh piss off.
Stop with this bullshit. It's been 10+ years. Get over it.



Get over what? I didn't say I wanted him to come back. I said that was the only change that I would be okay with. Jesus. Control your emotions long enough to actually comprehend what you're reading. If you're going to act like a child when you don't like someone's opinion, then maybe the internet isn't for you.

WilliamMunny

Quote from: Trav86 on February 21, 2022, 01:46:50 AM
Quote from: UndercoverMyung on February 20, 2022, 10:04:54 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 19, 2022, 05:33:59 AM


Now Mike. If he wanted to leave, I'd be okay with Portnoy coming back. Hell, they barely play the MM era songs if they aren't on the newest album anyway.

Oh piss off.
Stop with this bullshit. It's been 10+ years. Get over it.



Get over what? I didn't say I wanted him to come back. I said that was the only change that I would be okay with. Jesus. Control your emotions long enough to actually comprehend what you're reading. If you're going to act like a child when you don't like someone's opinion, then maybe the internet isn't for you.

Sadly, I think the internet has become a sandbox for exactly what you're describing here :eek

Stadler

Quote from: Kocak on February 19, 2022, 06:50:44 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 26, 2021, 04:13:08 AM
SoA sound  just like another one of MPs side projects that will likely last a maximum of 3 studio albums and 3 live DVDs then call it a day before he moves on.

He needs to stop writing and recording all his albums in like a a week and really focus on writing a GREAT album that will stand up

to DT's best work. Didn't SOA have two songs that sounded exactly the same on their last album ?

That's what happens when you force yourself to write an hour of music in 7 days.

I 100% agree with this.

Also, MP today would not be able to play most of the Mangini tracks. He has regressed as a drummer. He has not added anything new to his style, I reckon it's one of the reasons why some have a hard time listening to his stuff now.

My controversial DT opinion:

JP should stick to composing and arranging and leave the production of DT albums to someone else entirely and stay out of the studio when the album is getting mixed.

I'm not a fan of this line of reasoning.  Seems to be a way of finding trouble, honestly.  Not that we'll ever know, but even if we could, who cares? It's not a contest, it's not a sporting event.  All I know is I saw Mike Portnoy play twice in two nights about a week ago, and I was breathless.  NOT ONCE did I think "whoa, I've heard THAT fill before!" or "WOW, that's not as innovative as [insert something that supposedly is "innovative"]".   NOT ONCE did I think "Wow, I wish there were 40 more drums, hanging from a skylight and played with his weiner!".  It was three hours of music and playing that has impacted me tremendously (my wife is like "STFU about that concert already, we got it.")   The same way that I get emotional satisfaction when David Gilmour plays but only have a sort of objective admiration for most of Yngwie's material, I think this distinction is only important for those who count physical skill or accomplishment as something to be measured and valued in and of itself.  I know for me, I - controversially, maybe, given the thread title - noted that some of the raw physicality on the new album was a detractor.  Yeah, he CAN play that, but SHOULD he (and yes, I get that DT is a technically oriented band, but there are 14 +/- albums where it was balanced by a musicality and emotional resonance; it's always been a combination of the three with this band).

WilliamMunny

Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 06:22:20 AM
Quote from: Kocak on February 19, 2022, 06:50:44 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 26, 2021, 04:13:08 AM
SoA sound  just like another one of MPs side projects that will likely last a maximum of 3 studio albums and 3 live DVDs then call it a day before he moves on.

He needs to stop writing and recording all his albums in like a a week and really focus on writing a GREAT album that will stand up

to DT's best work. Didn't SOA have two songs that sounded exactly the same on their last album ?

That's what happens when you force yourself to write an hour of music in 7 days.

I 100% agree with this.

Also, MP today would not be able to play most of the Mangini tracks. He has regressed as a drummer. He has not added anything new to his style, I reckon it's one of the reasons why some have a hard time listening to his stuff now.

My controversial DT opinion:

JP should stick to composing and arranging and leave the production of DT albums to someone else entirely and stay out of the studio when the album is getting mixed.

I'm not a fan of this line of reasoning.  Seems to be a way of finding trouble, honestly.  Not that we'll ever know, but even if we could, who cares? It's not a contest, it's not a sporting event.  All I know is I saw Mike Portnoy play twice in two nights about a week ago, and I was breathless.  NOT ONCE did I think "whoa, I've heard THAT fill before!" or "WOW, that's not as innovative as [insert something that supposedly is "innovative"]".   NOT ONCE did I think "Wow, I wish there were 40 more drums, hanging from a skylight and played with his weiner!".  It was three hours of music and playing that has impacted me tremendously (my wife is like "STFU about that concert already, we got it.")   The same way that I get emotional satisfaction when David Gilmour plays but only have a sort of objective admiration for most of Yngwie's material, I think this distinction is only important for those who count physical skill or accomplishment as something to be measured and valued in and of itself.  I know for me, I - controversially, maybe, given the thread title - noted that some of the raw physicality on the new album was a detractor.  Yeah, he CAN play that, but SHOULD he (and yes, I get that DT is a technically oriented band, but there are 14 +/- albums where it was balanced by a musicality and emotional resonance; it's always been a combination of the three with this band).

This is a good point—as someone who can barely play a standard 4/4 beat on drums, Magnini's ability is lost upon me. I recognize that the man is insanely talented, but I honestly have no idea if he's playing Mike's old parts right or wrong.

I suspect that MP could step in and for 'most' non-drummers, it would probably be fine. Can he play Mangini's parts? Probably not fully, but I'm sure he'd assemble an approximation that would satisfy 'most' listeners.

Now, as a guitarist who has spent way to many hours deconstructing JP's solos, I fully get the idea that 'no one can replace him.' I was horrified by MP's 12-Step performance on the prog cruise a few years...literally hated hearing another guitarist 'butchering' JP's parts. But, even I have to concede that the performance was 'great' and that the issue was me being waaaayyyyy too picky.

I like the band as it is, and I LOVE Mangini's passion (and have grown to 'like' his drum sound, etc.). I truly hope there are no line-up changes in the future. But, if there was a situation where MP stepped in (ala When Dream and Day Reunite), I'm pretty sure I'd be viewing the whole thing with rose-colored glasses.

UndercoverMyung

Quote from: Trav86 on February 21, 2022, 01:46:50 AM
Quote from: UndercoverMyung on February 20, 2022, 10:04:54 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 19, 2022, 05:33:59 AM


Now Mike. If he wanted to leave, I'd be okay with Portnoy coming back. Hell, they barely play the MM era songs if they aren't on the newest album anyway.

Oh piss off.
Stop with this bullshit. It's been 10+ years. Get over it.



Get over what? I didn't say I wanted him to come back. I said that was the only change that I would be okay with. Jesus. Control your emotions long enough to actually comprehend what you're reading. If you're going to act like a child when you don't like someone's opinion, then maybe the internet isn't for you.

I'm so absolutely sick of being unable to go into literally any DT related conversation without people talking about Mike Portnoy coming back. Perhaps I was out of line there because you didn't do anything wrong - I'm just so tired of people bringing up Portnoy every 2 seconds.
Sorry if that was harsh though - I was just tired and can't stand seeing comments like this because I feel that they continue to treat Mangini as a second class member of the band or something. But I don't think that was your intention so my bad.

Skeever

I did a backwards DT discography listen recently, and while I've liked most of the Mangini albums, the Portnoy albums really felt like a breath of fresh air. I think it comes down to the production... The sound of Mangini's drums have gotten better on every album (and great on the latest), but the drums also sound very isolated, and triggered... more of a "modern" metal sound. When you listen to all MM's albums and then switch to Black Clouds or Systematic Chaos, it's like seeing in color for the first time. MP's drums sound like a guy playing live in a room with the rest of the band. Not just "there" but an active part of the overall sound that morphs from album to album (I love how every DT album it seems MP had a new "sound" whereas MM it's been more like refinements on the same type of modern metal sound).

gzarruk

Quote from: Skeever on February 21, 2022, 08:59:03 AM
I did a backwards DT discography listen recently, and while I've liked most of the Mangini albums, the Portnoy albums really felt like a breath of fresh air. I think it comes down to the production... The sound of Mangini's drums have gotten better on every album (and great on the latest), but the drums also sound very isolated, and triggered... more of a "modern" metal sound. When you listen to all MM's albums and then switch to Black Clouds or Systematic Chaos, it's like seeing in color for the first time. MP's drums sound like a guy playing live in a room with the rest of the band. Not just "there" but an active part of the overall sound that morphs from album to album (I love how every DT album it seems MP had a new "sound" whereas MM it's been more like refinements on the same type of modern metal sound).

His sound on ADTOE was much more natural/organic, but it was mixed a bit too low, sadly.

Chino

Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 06:22:20 AM
Quote from: Kocak on February 19, 2022, 06:50:44 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 26, 2021, 04:13:08 AM
SoA sound  just like another one of MPs side projects that will likely last a maximum of 3 studio albums and 3 live DVDs then call it a day before he moves on.

He needs to stop writing and recording all his albums in like a a week and really focus on writing a GREAT album that will stand up

to DT's best work. Didn't SOA have two songs that sounded exactly the same on their last album ?

That's what happens when you force yourself to write an hour of music in 7 days.

I 100% agree with this.

Also, MP today would not be able to play most of the Mangini tracks. He has regressed as a drummer. He has not added anything new to his style, I reckon it's one of the reasons why some have a hard time listening to his stuff now.

My controversial DT opinion:

JP should stick to composing and arranging and leave the production of DT albums to someone else entirely and stay out of the studio when the album is getting mixed.

I'm not a fan of this line of reasoning.  Seems to be a way of finding trouble, honestly.  Not that we'll ever know, but even if we could, who cares? It's not a contest, it's not a sporting event.  All I know is I saw Mike Portnoy play twice in two nights about a week ago, and I was breathless.  NOT ONCE did I think "whoa, I've heard THAT fill before!" or "WOW, that's not as innovative as [insert something that supposedly is "innovative"]".   NOT ONCE did I think "Wow, I wish there were 40 more drums, hanging from a skylight and played with his weiner!".  It was three hours of music and playing that has impacted me tremendously (my wife is like "STFU about that concert already, we got it.")   The same way that I get emotional satisfaction when David Gilmour plays but only have a sort of objective admiration for most of Yngwie's material, I think this distinction is only important for those who count physical skill or accomplishment as something to be measured and valued in and of itself.  I know for me, I - controversially, maybe, given the thread title - noted that some of the raw physicality on the new album was a detractor.  Yeah, he CAN play that, but SHOULD he (and yes, I get that DT is a technically oriented band, but there are 14 +/- albums where it was balanced by a musicality and emotional resonance; it's always been a combination of the three with this band).

Where were those shows?

Trav86

Quote from: UndercoverMyung on February 21, 2022, 08:49:34 AM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 21, 2022, 01:46:50 AM
Quote from: UndercoverMyung on February 20, 2022, 10:04:54 PM
Quote from: Trav86 on February 19, 2022, 05:33:59 AM


Now Mike. If he wanted to leave, I'd be okay with Portnoy coming back. Hell, they barely play the MM era songs if they aren't on the newest album anyway.

Oh piss off.
Stop with this bullshit. It's been 10+ years. Get over it.



Get over what? I didn't say I wanted him to come back. I said that was the only change that I would be okay with. Jesus. Control your emotions long enough to actually comprehend what you're reading. If you're going to act like a child when you don't like someone's opinion, then maybe the internet isn't for you.

I'm so absolutely sick of being unable to go into literally any DT related conversation without people talking about Mike Portnoy coming back. Perhaps I was out of line there because you didn't do anything wrong - I'm just so tired of people bringing up Portnoy every 2 seconds.
Sorry if that was harsh though - I was just tired and can't stand seeing comments like this because I feel that they continue to treat Mangini as a second class member of the band or something. But I don't think that was your intention so my bad.

You're right, that wasn't my intention. I've been a supporter of Mangini in this band since the beginning. At the Meet and Greet in 2019 I even told him "thank you for being in this band".  And he seemed genuinely appreciative of it. A few people earlier in this thread were talking about members changing and I was merely saying that the only one I would accept would be Portnoy coming back. And that's only because the return of a founding member is totally different than someone new coming into the band at this point. IF it were up to me, Mangini would be in this band until they retire.

I get what you mean, every FB post and YouTube video about DT has Portnoy brought up. I'm tired of it too. We're on the same team. It's all good.

Stadler

Quote from: Chino on February 21, 2022, 10:14:03 AM
Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 06:22:20 AM
Quote from: Kocak on February 19, 2022, 06:50:44 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on June 26, 2021, 04:13:08 AM
SoA sound  just like another one of MPs side projects that will likely last a maximum of 3 studio albums and 3 live DVDs then call it a day before he moves on.

He needs to stop writing and recording all his albums in like a a week and really focus on writing a GREAT album that will stand up

to DT's best work. Didn't SOA have two songs that sounded exactly the same on their last album ?

That's what happens when you force yourself to write an hour of music in 7 days.

I 100% agree with this.

Also, MP today would not be able to play most of the Mangini tracks. He has regressed as a drummer. He has not added anything new to his style, I reckon it's one of the reasons why some have a hard time listening to his stuff now.

My controversial DT opinion:

JP should stick to composing and arranging and leave the production of DT albums to someone else entirely and stay out of the studio when the album is getting mixed.

I'm not a fan of this line of reasoning.  Seems to be a way of finding trouble, honestly.  Not that we'll ever know, but even if we could, who cares? It's not a contest, it's not a sporting event.  All I know is I saw Mike Portnoy play twice in two nights about a week ago, and I was breathless.  NOT ONCE did I think "whoa, I've heard THAT fill before!" or "WOW, that's not as innovative as [insert something that supposedly is "innovative"]".   NOT ONCE did I think "Wow, I wish there were 40 more drums, hanging from a skylight and played with his weiner!".  It was three hours of music and playing that has impacted me tremendously (my wife is like "STFU about that concert already, we got it.")   The same way that I get emotional satisfaction when David Gilmour plays but only have a sort of objective admiration for most of Yngwie's material, I think this distinction is only important for those who count physical skill or accomplishment as something to be measured and valued in and of itself.  I know for me, I - controversially, maybe, given the thread title - noted that some of the raw physicality on the new album was a detractor.  Yeah, he CAN play that, but SHOULD he (and yes, I get that DT is a technically oriented band, but there are 14 +/- albums where it was balanced by a musicality and emotional resonance; it's always been a combination of the three with this band).

Where were those shows?

New York - Sony Hall - and Boston - The Sinclair - for The Neal Morse Band.  There are others here who saw shows (including the ones I saw) and can confirm or deny.  I personally thought Mike was on fire.  It may have been more enthusiasm and joy with playing with that band than sheer technical ability (I think I wrote here that on the first night, in New York, there was one part where I thought maybe he MIGHT have screwed up the timing of a part, but without a tape I can't be sure of that).  But it was powerful for me.

bosk1

Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 11:23:48 AMThere are others here who saw shows (including the ones I saw) and can confirm or deny.  I personally thought Mike was on fire.

???  You say that like it is surprising or an anomaly.  When has he not been on fire?  I mean, I'm thrilled with Mangini in Dream Theater, and I hope he never leaves.  But whether we are talking about Portnoy's work in DT or elsewhere, he is a world class drummer and great showman.  I've never seen a live show or recording where he wasn't phenomenal. 

Kram

Quote from: bosk1 on February 21, 2022, 12:14:08 PM
Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 11:23:48 AMThere are others here who saw shows (including the ones I saw) and can confirm or deny.  I personally thought Mike was on fire.

???  You say that like it is surprising or an anomaly.  When has he not been on fire?  I mean, I'm thrilled with Mangini in Dream Theater, and I hope he never leaves.  But whether we are talking about Portnoy's work in DT or elsewhere, he is a world class drummer and great showman.  I've never seen a live show or recording where he wasn't phenomenal.
MP is my second favorite drummer of all time (only behind NP) - and while I recognize there are other players "technically" better - he's still right at the top of the list for me.  Incredible drummer as far as I'm concerned!

Stadler

Quote from: bosk1 on February 21, 2022, 12:14:08 PM
Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 11:23:48 AMThere are others here who saw shows (including the ones I saw) and can confirm or deny.  I personally thought Mike was on fire.

???  You say that like it is surprising or an anomaly.  When has he not been on fire?  I mean, I'm thrilled with Mangini in Dream Theater, and I hope he never leaves.  But whether we are talking about Portnoy's work in DT or elsewhere, he is a world class drummer and great showman.  I've never seen a live show or recording where he wasn't phenomenal.

I feel the same way.  Some of the "he hasn't progressed", "he can't do this", "he doesn't practice" talk seems to me to imply that he's regressed or is coasting.  To my mind, he's just pushing a different variable.

Dublagent66

I decided not to go to DT's first show on this tour and after seeing the setlist, I'm kinda glad I didn't.  :dunno:

geeeemo

Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 21, 2022, 02:35:03 PM
I decided not to go to DT's first show on this tour and after seeing the setlist, I'm kinda glad I didn't.  :dunno:

It really was an enjoyable show!

UndercoverMyung

Quote from: geeeemo on February 21, 2022, 02:49:33 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 21, 2022, 02:35:03 PM
I decided not to go to DT's first show on this tour and after seeing the setlist, I'm kinda glad I didn't.  :dunno:

It really was an enjoyable show!

Agreed! Loved the show.

Architeuthis

Quote from: UndercoverMyung on February 21, 2022, 04:37:19 PM
Quote from: geeeemo on February 21, 2022, 02:49:33 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on February 21, 2022, 02:35:03 PM
I decided not to go to DT's first show on this tour and after seeing the setlist, I'm kinda glad I didn't.  :dunno:

It really was an enjoyable show!

Agreed! Loved the show.

I thoroughly enjoyed the show in Seattle too,  the setlist was awesome to see live and the sound and lighting production was amazing!  💯💥

Dream Team

I guess my controversial opinion of the day is (following up on my comments in the Setlist sub-forum) is that James should gracefully retire and convince the band to continue on with a singer who can handle the material, at least for the duration of this tour.

Do you really think he's having fun anymore? Having to have vocals piped in and sinking to lip-syncing. How fun can that be for him really? I get it, he needs a paycheck - but that would be a sad state of affairs if that is the only reason he presses on.

Flame shield fully engaged . . .

WilliamMunny

Quote from: Dream Team on February 22, 2022, 05:44:45 AM
I guess my controversial opinion of the day is (following up on my comments in the Setlist sub-forum) is that James should gracefully retire and convince the band to continue on with a singer who can handle the material, at least for the duration of this tour.

Do you really think he's having fun anymore? Having to have vocals piped in and sinking to lip-syncing. How fun can that be for him really? I get it, he needs a paycheck - but that would be a sad state of affairs if that is the only reason he presses on.

Flame shield fully engaged . . .

No need for a flame shield here—after all, this is the 'Controversial Opinions' thread. ;)

My counter, however, would be Robert Plant.

Here's how I look at it...you either love a 73-year-old robert plant reinterpretting the Zep classics (singing a different (wayyyy lower) key with a dramatically different voice), or you prefer to go to a local bar where some 23-year old nails the songs just like the record.

There's no right or wrong, and it probably varies for everyone depending on the artist, but for me, James is the voice of DT, and I will be happy to hear his interpretation of the band's music for years to come.

TAC

But Plant was kind of a hack live in the 70's.
Quote from: wkiml on June 08, 2012, 09:06:35 AMwould have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on April 22, 2023, 05:54:45 PMTAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

WilliamMunny

Quote from: TAC on February 22, 2022, 06:27:24 AM
But Plant was kind of a hack live in the 70's.

Um, agree to disagree there.  :eek

I'd say 'hit or miss' better sums it up—I've heard dozens of boots from the later '70s and I'd say he was 'on' more than he was 'off,' and Page had just as many cringe-worthy shows.


Trav86

As long as James wants to be up there, then so do I. I would rather go see James performing imperfectly than someone else nailing it. I want to go see Dream Theater, not someone performing Dream Theater. And James is DT.

Dream Team

What about my question of is he actually enjoying what he's doing? Doesn't seem it to me.

Stadler

Quote from: WilliamMunny on February 22, 2022, 07:20:24 AM
Quote from: TAC on February 22, 2022, 06:27:24 AM
But Plant was kind of a hack live in the 70's.

Um, agree to disagree there.  :eek

I'd say 'hit or miss' better sums it up—I've heard dozens of boots from the later '70s and I'd say he was 'on' more than he was 'off,' and Page had just as many cringe-worthy shows.

I'm usually in lock step with Brother TAC, but on this one, not really.  Plant had his off nights, there's no question, but when he was on, WOW.  I went through a deep Zeppelin phase a while back and came out with a really profound admiration for him as a singer and a frontman.

One thing I will say is that to compare Robert Plant on the '75 tour of Zeppelin with the Plant of, say, the Carry Fire tour.  It's a different animal entirely; different music, different band, different approach.  I happen to like the current Plant BETTER than the histrionic rock god Plant, but that's my personal preference.

The problem with James - to the extent there is a problem - is that none of those caveats apply here.  It's NOT different music, it's NOT a different band, it's NOT a different approach.   Having said that, I rarely bail on a band because of the singer; I get that times change and voices change, etc.  Bruce is not the singer he once was (though, once he's as good as he ever was, if that makes sense).  Paul Stanley is a shadow of his former (vocal) self, but then again, he's still Paul Stanley.   I got into DT in large part due to James, and he's still a catalyst for the music I like (I listened to 6DOIT the song yesterday and WOW), so I don't want to see him go.   If we decided that change had to be made, and I had to pick one, I know who it would be, but I'm not at liberty to say right now.

425

Quote from: Stadler on February 22, 2022, 08:00:15 AM
I got into DT in large part due to James, and he's still a catalyst for the music I like (I listened to 6DOIT the song yesterday and WOW), so I don't want to see him go.   If we decided that change had to be made, and I had to pick one, I know who it would be, but I'm not at liberty to say right now.

Because it's Mike Portnoy? :P

WilliamMunny

Quote from: Stadler on February 22, 2022, 08:00:15 AM
Quote from: WilliamMunny on February 22, 2022, 07:20:24 AM
Quote from: TAC on February 22, 2022, 06:27:24 AM
But Plant was kind of a hack live in the 70's.

Um, agree to disagree there.  :eek

I'd say 'hit or miss' better sums it up—I've heard dozens of boots from the later '70s and I'd say he was 'on' more than he was 'off,' and Page had just as many cringe-worthy shows.

I'm usually in lock step with Brother TAC, but on this one, not really.  Plant had his off nights, there's no question, but when he was on, WOW.  I went through a deep Zeppelin phase a while back and came out with a really profound admiration for him as a singer and a frontman.

One thing I will say is that to compare Robert Plant on the '75 tour of Zeppelin with the Plant of, say, the Carry Fire tour.  It's a different animal entirely; different music, different band, different approach.  I happen to like the current Plant BETTER than the histrionic rock god Plant, but that's my personal preference.

The problem with James - to the extent there is a problem - is that none of those caveats apply here.  It's NOT different music, it's NOT a different band, it's NOT a different approach.   Having said that, I rarely bail on a band because of the singer; I get that times change and voices change, etc.  Bruce is not the singer he once was (though, once he's as good as he ever was, if that makes sense).  Paul Stanley is a shadow of his former (vocal) self, but then again, he's still Paul Stanley.   I got into DT in large part due to James, and he's still a catalyst for the music I like (I listened to 6DOIT the song yesterday and WOW), so I don't want to see him go.   If we decided that change had to be made, and I had to pick one, I know who it would be, but I'm not at liberty to say right now.

That's a fair point. I suppose what I'm saying is that, even within the confines of the 'same' everything else, if James consistently opted for the lower range on older songs, I'd be down. I often sing along to Voices an octave lower than James, and honestly, I think that might make the song more enjoyable 'for everyone' at this point.

Trav86

Quote from: Dream Team on February 22, 2022, 07:39:08 AM
What about my question of is he actually enjoying what he's doing? Doesn't seem it to me.

Well, no one can answer that other than him. That's why I prefaced my post with "if he wants to".

Madman Shepherd

Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 02:33:12 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on February 21, 2022, 12:14:08 PM
Quote from: Stadler on February 21, 2022, 11:23:48 AMThere are others here who saw shows (including the ones I saw) and can confirm or deny.  I personally thought Mike was on fire.

???  You say that like it is surprising or an anomaly.  When has he not been on fire?  I mean, I'm thrilled with Mangini in Dream Theater, and I hope he never leaves.  But whether we are talking about Portnoy's work in DT or elsewhere, he is a world class drummer and great showman.  I've never seen a live show or recording where he wasn't phenomenal.

I feel the same way.  Some of the "he hasn't progressed", "he can't do this", "he doesn't practice" talk seems to me to imply that he's regressed or is coasting.

How much more do they want him to progress? It's not like we go into a new MP song and go, "Oh god, 9/16 time to 7/8 time to 13/8 time again?! Why doesn't he try...."

I've heard some of these new prog band that try to throw in dozens of time signatures for the sake of progginess and it bores me. Portnoy is doing just fine.

I will say this though, his lack of practicing makes me wonder if his passion has waned. It doesn't affect his performance and I really can't judge his writing other than SoA which has a lot of really great moments, but I wonder if he had the choice to do it all over again if he would still choose drums?
Quote from: WilliamMunny on February 22, 2022, 05:49:33 AM
Quote from: Dream Team on February 22, 2022, 05:44:45 AM
I guess my controversial opinion of the day is (following up on my comments in the Setlist sub-forum) is that James should gracefully retire and convince the band to continue on with a singer who can handle the material, at least for the duration of this tour.

Do you really think he's having fun anymore? Having to have vocals piped in and sinking to lip-syncing. How fun can that be for him really? I get it, he needs a paycheck - but that would be a sad state of affairs if that is the only reason he presses on.

Flame shield fully engaged . . .

No need for a flame shield here—after all, this is the 'Controversial Opinions' thread. ;)

My counter, however, would be Robert Plant.

Here's how I look at it...you either love a 73-year-old robert plant reinterpretting the Zep classics (singing a different (wayyyy lower) key with a dramatically different voice), or you prefer to go to a local bar where some 23-year old nails the songs just like the record.



...and the vast, vast, vast majority would choose the former over the latter.

Same goes with DT. Replace James and watch their popularity tank. The only bands that had more success with a replacement vocalist were bands like Deep Purple who hadn't reached a very significant degree of popularity in the first place.