Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 764303 times)

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Offline Enigmachine

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10850 on: June 24, 2021, 07:32:08 AM »
Oh, god, please, no.  No Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto.  Neither one can hold James' jock on their best day, IMO.   I do NOT understand why those two keep getting brought up in the context of Dream Theater (and Mike appears to be enamored of both, or at least was).   I mean, I guess I do, but not for me.

Well, Volante is right imo. If this is how James approaches a bluesy rocking track, then I would definitely prefer Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto's take on this. Both of them have that husky swagger and expressive quality to their belting voice while, as much I like James when he plays to his strengths, I think he sounds flat, strained and downright awkward in this context. On the rest of D/T he's served pretty well I think, so I don't think Volante was stating an outright preference for the two singers over him to be in DT. I could probably see pre-injury LaBrie being able to tackle this really well though, given that he more regularly used that aggressive grit.

Offline WilliamMunny

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10851 on: June 24, 2021, 07:44:16 AM »
Yeah, Viper King is shit.  Possibly the only time I wish I purchased the regular edition over a deluxe.  Ruins a wonderful album.

Ruins it? Really? Wow—I mean, I get not liking it, but I find it hard to believe that the inclusion of a bonus track 'ruins' the rest of the album. Tough crowd in these parts :huh:

Offline Stadler

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10852 on: June 24, 2021, 08:00:28 AM »
Oh, god, please, no.  No Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto.  Neither one can hold James' jock on their best day, IMO.   I do NOT understand why those two keep getting brought up in the context of Dream Theater (and Mike appears to be enamored of both, or at least was).   I mean, I guess I do, but not for me.

Well, Volante is right imo. If this is how James approaches a bluesy rocking track, then I would definitely prefer Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto's take on this. Both of them have that husky swagger and expressive quality to their belting voice while, as much I like James when he plays to his strengths, I think he sounds flat, strained and downright awkward in this context. On the rest of D/T he's served pretty well I think, so I don't think Volante was stating an outright preference for the two singers over him to be in DT. I could probably see pre-injury LaBrie being able to tackle this really well though, given that he more regularly used that aggressive grit.

I hear you, and I get the distinction you're making.  But I'm still in that camp.   Purple - one of my favorite bands of all time - survived just nicely with Ian Gillan, who is more of a LaBrie type singer, as opposed to Coverdale/Hughes, who are more Allen/Soto singers.  I've always said I love the juxtaposition more than the synchronicity, if that makes sense.

Offline Volante99

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10853 on: June 24, 2021, 08:06:07 AM »
Oh, god, please, no.  No Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto.  Neither one can hold James' jock on their best day, IMO.   I do NOT understand why those two keep getting brought up in the context of Dream Theater (and Mike appears to be enamored of both, or at least was).   I mean, I guess I do, but not for me.

Well, Volante is right imo. If this is how James approaches a bluesy rocking track, then I would definitely prefer Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto's take on this. Both of them have that husky swagger and expressive quality to their belting voice while, as much I like James when he plays to his strengths, I think he sounds flat, strained and downright awkward in this context. On the rest of D/T he's served pretty well I think, so I don't think Volante was stating an outright preference for the two singers over him to be in DT. I could probably see pre-injury LaBrie being able to tackle this really well though, given that he more regularly used that aggressive grit.

Exactly my point- I’m not a BIG fan of Russell Allen and, for the most part, cant stand Jeff Scott Soto but that’s kind of the type of voice you need to pull off a cheesefest song like Viper King.

If I’m speaking your language Stadler- I think Paul Stanley or hell even Gene Simmons (circa 1982) could have probably done better with this song.

And that’s not a major dig on JLB- this just isn’t his song.

Offline Enigmachine

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10854 on: June 24, 2021, 08:14:30 AM »
I hear you, and I get the distinction you're making.  But I'm still in that camp.   Purple - one of my favorite bands of all time - survived just nicely with Ian Gillan, who is more of a LaBrie type singer, as opposed to Coverdale/Hughes, who are more Allen/Soto singers.  I've always said I love the juxtaposition more than the synchronicity, if that makes sense.

I don't know, even Gillan definitely has that very bluesy quality to his voice with that charismatic and sly snarl and even nowadays tends to stay within the lower end of his range to play to his strengths. James didn't add any kind of character to his voice like that and stays in that uncomfortably high range when it came to Viper King, which is why I feel like the pairing didn't work very well. Maybe a few moments here and there, but it didn't feel like enough to me.

Offline pg1067

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10855 on: June 24, 2021, 09:53:59 AM »
Yeah, Viper King is shit.  Possibly the only time I wish I purchased the regular edition over a deluxe.  Ruins a wonderful album.

Ruins it? Really? Wow—I mean, I get not liking it, but I find it hard to believe that the inclusion of a bonus track 'ruins' the rest of the album. Tough crowd in these parts :huh:

Right?

Also, Viper King >>> Room 137.
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10856 on: June 24, 2021, 10:27:21 AM »
Agree with EnigmaMachine- If I’m being completely honest, my main issue with Viper King is JLB’s vocal delivery. He’s shouting it out in his upper register throughout the whole damn song and it’s just not “pleasing” to my ears. This is just not the type of song that plays to his strengths anymore. If a Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto was belting it out I’d probably find it less offensive.

For me, AT BEST, the whole song sounds like a vehicle for a JP solo in a straight ahead rocker context- and he certainly delivers, but let’s face it; JP can do that sort of thing with his eyes closed and an arm tied behind his back.

Oh, god, please, no.  No Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto.  Neither one can hold James' jock on their best day, IMO.   I do NOT understand why those two keep getting brought up in the context of Dream Theater (and Mike appears to be enamored of both, or at least was).   I mean, I guess I do, but not for me.

Completely agree here, though I do enjoy Russell's vocals when he isn't in "tough guy" mode. Jeff, on the other hand... not good.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Stadler

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10857 on: June 24, 2021, 10:48:18 AM »
Agree with EnigmaMachine- If I’m being completely honest, my main issue with Viper King is JLB’s vocal delivery. He’s shouting it out in his upper register throughout the whole damn song and it’s just not “pleasing” to my ears. This is just not the type of song that plays to his strengths anymore. If a Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto was belting it out I’d probably find it less offensive.

For me, AT BEST, the whole song sounds like a vehicle for a JP solo in a straight ahead rocker context- and he certainly delivers, but let’s face it; JP can do that sort of thing with his eyes closed and an arm tied behind his back.

Oh, god, please, no.  No Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto.  Neither one can hold James' jock on their best day, IMO.   I do NOT understand why those two keep getting brought up in the context of Dream Theater (and Mike appears to be enamored of both, or at least was).   I mean, I guess I do, but not for me.

Completely agree here, though I do enjoy Russell's vocals when he isn't in "tough guy" mode. Jeff, on the other hand... not good.

You're not a fan when he's mutherfuckin' psychosane?  :)

Offline gzarruk

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10858 on: June 24, 2021, 11:04:53 AM »
Agree with EnigmaMachine- If I’m being completely honest, my main issue with Viper King is JLB’s vocal delivery. He’s shouting it out in his upper register throughout the whole damn song and it’s just not “pleasing” to my ears. This is just not the type of song that plays to his strengths anymore. If a Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto was belting it out I’d probably find it less offensive.

For me, AT BEST, the whole song sounds like a vehicle for a JP solo in a straight ahead rocker context- and he certainly delivers, but let’s face it; JP can do that sort of thing with his eyes closed and an arm tied behind his back.

Oh, god, please, no.  No Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto.  Neither one can hold James' jock on their best day, IMO.   I do NOT understand why those two keep getting brought up in the context of Dream Theater (and Mike appears to be enamored of both, or at least was).   I mean, I guess I do, but not for me.

Completely agree here, though I do enjoy Russell's vocals when he isn't in "tough guy" mode. Jeff, on the other hand... not good.

You're not a fan when he's mutherfuckin' psychosane?  :)

You could say so, yeah :rollin :rollin :rollin
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Dedalus

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10859 on: June 24, 2021, 11:42:57 AM »
Agree with EnigmaMachine- If I’m being completely honest, my main issue with Viper King is JLB’s vocal delivery. He’s shouting it out in his upper register throughout the whole damn song and it’s just not “pleasing” to my ears. This is just not the type of song that plays to his strengths anymore. If a Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto was belting it out I’d probably find it less offensive.

For me, AT BEST, the whole song sounds like a vehicle for a JP solo in a straight ahead rocker context- and he certainly delivers, but let’s face it; JP can do that sort of thing with his eyes closed and an arm tied behind his back.

Oh, god, please, no.  No Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto.  Neither one can hold James' jock on their best day, IMO.   I do NOT understand why those two keep getting brought up in the context of Dream Theater (and Mike appears to be enamored of both, or at least was).   I mean, I guess I do, but not for me.

And this continues to be repeated to exhaustion. It doesn't matter in what context, in what language, in what country, when talking about "Vocals in DT" Russell Allen will be remembered (and JSS more recently). Herd effect?

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10860 on: June 24, 2021, 03:57:52 PM »

Oh, god, please, no.  No Russell Allen or Jeff Scott Soto.  Neither one can hold James' jock on their best day, IMO.   I do NOT understand why those two keep getting brought up in the context of Dream Theater (and Mike appears to be enamored of both, or at least was).   I mean, I guess I do, but not for me.

Amen to this.  I get the appeal for Allen, but his style just isn't my thing, I guess. Soto's singing has about much personality as watching paint dry, IMO.

Offline TAC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10861 on: June 24, 2021, 04:03:09 PM »
Russ Allen singing Viper King? WTF? No way.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10862 on: June 24, 2021, 04:39:00 PM »
I love Allen and really like his style.  To a lesser degree, same with Soto.  But I don't want either singing DT. 
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Offline Volante99

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10863 on: June 24, 2021, 04:43:07 PM »
I think my point got way way lost here;

My post is less about me liking Russell Allen and JSS (and DEFINITELY not implying they would make good replacements in Dream Theater) but more about REALLY disliking JLB’s performance on Viper King. He just doesn’t pull it off for me. The song doesn’t flatter his vocal styling. I only mention those two other singers because they are more or less considered JLB’s contemporaries. I could have easily thrown out a dozen other singers as examples.

Offline TAC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10864 on: June 24, 2021, 04:47:42 PM »
If you want someone a bit rougher, I'd go with Andi Deris. Allen would AMob it up, and JSS would genericize it.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D
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Offline Volante99

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10865 on: June 24, 2021, 05:02:25 PM »
If you want someone a bit rougher, I'd go with Andi Deris. Allen would AMob it up, and JSS would genericize it.

Fair point. Although I would argue the song is already awfully generic.

To be fair to JLB, I don’t think any singer could turn Viper King into a GOOD song for me. I’m just shooting for tolerable, here.  :lol

Offline bosk1

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10866 on: June 24, 2021, 05:05:42 PM »
I think my point got way way lost here;

My post is less about me liking Russell Allen and JSS (and DEFINITELY not implying they would make good replacements in Dream Theater) but more about REALLY disliking JLB’s performance on Viper King. He just doesn’t pull it off for me. The song doesn’t flatter his vocal styling. I only mention those two other singers because they are more or less considered JLB’s contemporaries. I could have easily thrown out a dozen other singers as examples.

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Offline geeeemo

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10867 on: June 24, 2021, 05:12:52 PM »
My thought on the vocals for VK.  The music has energy, groove. The verse vocals are slow, like they need more words or a different beat. It doesn't match. The chorus is ok, but it just sounds off in the verses.  I like how JL voice sounds in it.

Offline Volante99

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10868 on: June 24, 2021, 05:23:23 PM »
I think my point got way way lost here;

My post is less about me liking Russell Allen and JSS (and DEFINITELY not implying they would make good replacements in Dream Theater) but more about REALLY disliking JLB’s performance on Viper King. He just doesn’t pull it off for me. The song doesn’t flatter his vocal styling. I only mention those two other singers because they are more or less considered JLB’s contemporaries. I could have easily thrown out a dozen other singers as examples.

No, I think we understand.  We just think you are wrong.

Well, there’s no accounting for taste, is there?  ;)
Really, some think I’m wrong, a couple think I’m right…we may have an actual controversial opinion here.
If I can give Viper King one compliment; it definitely seems to really bring about a mixed, love/hate reaction amongst a lot of listeners. If nothing else it’s definitely a success in shaking things up a bit.

Offline Dedalus

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10869 on: June 24, 2021, 06:29:46 PM »
I have nothing against Viper King. I think I'm pretty tolerant of these half-generic songs with a deep purpleian flavor. I remember that the only things I found tolerable in that disgrace called Sons of Apollo were just two songs (I think there were two) with this flavor.

Offline Volante99

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10870 on: June 24, 2021, 08:02:07 PM »
Lol poor Sons of Apollo. Nobody liked that band. Pretty sure some members of Sons of Apollo didn’t even like Sons of Apollo.

Offline HOF

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10871 on: June 24, 2021, 10:31:18 PM »
Lol poor Sons of Apollo. Nobody liked that band. Pretty sure some members of Sons of Apollo didn’t even like Sons of Apollo.

Boy was I disappointed in that band. The reaction to it was kind of the last straw that lead to MP shuttering his forum too.

Offline Volante99

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10872 on: June 25, 2021, 01:36:59 AM »
Lol poor Sons of Apollo. Nobody liked that band. Pretty sure some members of Sons of Apollo didn’t even like Sons of Apollo.

Boy was I disappointed in that band. The reaction to it was kind of the last straw that lead to MP shuttering his forum too.

Textbook example of a “super group” that works better on paper than real life.

Offline TM172003

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10873 on: June 25, 2021, 03:18:26 AM »
I think I might actually be the only person who doesn’t mind SoA. ;D

I don’t like Jeff’s vocals but I honestly thought the music was fine.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10874 on: June 25, 2021, 06:15:05 AM »
Lol poor Sons of Apollo. Nobody liked that band. Pretty sure some members of Sons of Apollo didn’t even like Sons of Apollo.

I imagine what their live shows must be like and a Tom Hanks line from A League of Their Own comes to mind..."Dozens of people are waiting!"  :P :P

Offline Stadler

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10875 on: June 25, 2021, 06:46:06 AM »
I think I might actually be the only person who doesn’t mind SoA. ;D

I don’t like Jeff’s vocals but I honestly thought the music was fine.

That's it for me.  I thought the music was very good, and should have been elevated by top notch vocals.  Instead, they were dragged down, IMO.   I was waiting for something to soar over, and it was just more generic gruff, quasi-Dio vocal stylings.


Lol poor Sons of Apollo. Nobody liked that band. Pretty sure some members of Sons of Apollo didn’t even like Sons of Apollo.

I imagine what their live shows must be like and a Tom Hanks line from A League of Their Own comes to mind..."Dozens of people are waiting!"  :P :P

That's the sad part; I saw them live and it was very good not great.   It SHOULD have been great; again, though vocals.  He's an engaging front man - the walk through the audience and the shot at the bar during ...And The Cradle Will Rock was fun, I guess, but everything is in the same middle register:  the keys, the guitars, even Billy's got that treble-y bass sound that competes with the guitar, and to have the vocals be in that range as well just makes it mush.   IMO.

And it wasn't a dozen, but I was what you'd consider to be third or fourth row on the floor and I had no one behind me; I could basically run back to the bar for a drink whenever I wanted without losing my spot.   I SHOULD have been packed like a sardine and going nowhere (like at Slash, though different venue).

Offline Volante99

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10876 on: June 25, 2021, 07:19:21 AM »
I think I might actually be the only person who doesn’t mind SoA. ;D

I don’t like Jeff’s vocals but I honestly thought the music was fine.

That's it for me.  I thought the music was very good, and should have been elevated by top notch vocals.  Instead, they were dragged down, IMO.   I was waiting for something to soar over, and it was just more generic gruff, quasi-Dio vocal stylings.


Lol poor Sons of Apollo. Nobody liked that band. Pretty sure some members of Sons of Apollo didn’t even like Sons of Apollo.

I imagine what their live shows must be like and a Tom Hanks line from A League of Their Own comes to mind..."Dozens of people are waiting!"  :P :P

That's the sad part; I saw them live and it was very good not great.   It SHOULD have been great; again, though vocals.  He's an engaging front man - the walk through the audience and the shot at the bar during ...And The Cradle Will Rock was fun, I guess, but everything is in the same middle register:  the keys, the guitars, even Billy's got that treble-y bass sound that competes with the guitar, and to have the vocals be in that range as well just makes it mush.   IMO.

And it wasn't a dozen, but I was what you'd consider to be third or fourth row on the floor and I had no one behind me; I could basically run back to the bar for a drink whenever I wanted without losing my spot.   I SHOULD have been packed like a sardine and going nowhere (like at Slash, though different venue).

Vocals were definitely part of the problem. Jeff’s got this AOR cheese voice that every song can’t help ending up sounding vaguely like a Rocky IV training montage.  :lol

Another issue I think is that, although Bumblefoot is one of the most talented guitar players alive, I’m not entirely convinced he can actually write a compelling melody/riff.

Otherwise- their best songs like “Fall to Ascend” sound like Grade B Dream Theater, which is what Portnoy should have really tried to avoid like the plague.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10877 on: June 25, 2021, 08:57:55 AM »
I can't help but compare SoA to Black Country Communion (not a bad thing).   Those BCC records are solid as a rock, and SoA could be as well, but Glenn Hughes just brings so much to the table on the BCC and I'm missing that in the SoA work.

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10878 on: June 25, 2021, 09:09:08 AM »
I think I might actually be the only person who doesn’t mind SoA. ;D

I don’t like Jeff’s vocals but I honestly thought the music was fine.

That's it for me.  I thought the music was very good, and should have been elevated by top notch vocals.  Instead, they were dragged down, IMO.   I was waiting for something to soar over, and it was just more generic gruff, quasi-Dio vocal stylings.


Lol poor Sons of Apollo. Nobody liked that band. Pretty sure some members of Sons of Apollo didn’t even like Sons of Apollo.

I imagine what their live shows must be like and a Tom Hanks line from A League of Their Own comes to mind..."Dozens of people are waiting!"  :P :P

That's the sad part; I saw them live and it was very good not great.   It SHOULD have been great; again, though vocals.  He's an engaging front man - the walk through the audience and the shot at the bar during ...And The Cradle Will Rock was fun, I guess, but everything is in the same middle register:  the keys, the guitars, even Billy's got that treble-y bass sound that competes with the guitar, and to have the vocals be in that range as well just makes it mush.   IMO.

And it wasn't a dozen, but I was what you'd consider to be third or fourth row on the floor and I had no one behind me; I could basically run back to the bar for a drink whenever I wanted without losing my spot.   I SHOULD have been packed like a sardine and going nowhere (like at Slash, though different venue).

Vocals were definitely part of the problem. Jeff’s got this AOR cheese voice that every song can’t help ending up sounding vaguely like a Rocky IV training montage.  :lol

Another issue I think is that, although Bumblefoot is one of the most talented guitar players alive, I’m not entirely convinced he can actually write a compelling melody/riff.

Otherwise- their best songs like “Fall to Ascend” sound like Grade B Dream Theater, which is what Portnoy should have really tried to avoid like the plague.

I don't know what AOR singers you listen to but Jeff doesn't sound like that at all.  I'm not saying I love SoA.  I find them average at best but I don't hear Jeff singing radio songs.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10879 on: June 25, 2021, 09:12:45 AM »
Depending who we're talking about, I'd kinda like an AOR singer.  Someone to put another sonic layer over the heavy meat and potatoes of the music.   There are so many instances of those songs feeling like they should soar, and instead... not.  Like I said above, there's a LOT going on in that similar sonic range.

Offline RodrigoAltaf

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10880 on: June 25, 2021, 11:15:03 AM »
I like Sons of Apollo, but I do understand the dislike for the band.

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10881 on: June 25, 2021, 01:13:32 PM »
Add me to the list of those who like SoA. Not my favorite DT offshoot and a bit too straightforward, but I like it otherwise - especially JSS's vocals.  :omg:

Actually this thread got me to listening to their first album again after not having spun it for a long time (don't worry - same is true for many of DT's album), and I enjoyed it.
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Offline geeeemo

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10882 on: June 25, 2021, 01:18:16 PM »
I just started listening a bit to SOA.  Some really decent music, but the vocals are Boring. I am not enjoying  them enough to really keep pursing listening that often. Only if they come up in a playlist.

Offline Volante99

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10883 on: June 25, 2021, 02:37:41 PM »

I don't know what AOR singers you listen to but Jeff doesn't sound like that at all.  I'm not saying I love SoA.  I find them average at best but I don't hear Jeff singing radio songs.

Hahaha he was literally in Journey (albeit for a short while).

Idk, his voice just sounds like quintessential 80s cheese to me- that Stan Bush, Robert Tepper, Joe Lynn Turner vibe. He’s a talented vocalist, for sure- I just have a hard time taking him seriously.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10884 on: June 26, 2021, 05:13:08 AM »
SoA sound  just like another one of MPs side projects that will likely last a maximum of 3 studio albums and 3 live DVDs then call it a day before he moves on.

He needs to stop writing and recording all his albums in like a a week and really focus on writing a GREAT album that will stand up

to DT's best work. Didn't SOA have two songs that sounded exactly the same on their last album ?

That's what happens when you force yourself to write an hour of music in 7 days.