Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 671927 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline IgnotusPerIgnotium

  • Posts: 116
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10605 on: June 03, 2021, 11:40:16 AM »
I chose it because it's the first song of the album, like the self titled I didn't chose the False Awaking suite.

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9800
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10606 on: June 03, 2021, 04:20:16 PM »
Yeah, I also noticed that one list was in chronological order and the other in reverse order.  Seemed like intentionally trying to create mismatches due to bias, so I just laughed off the list and didn't bother to respond.  But since it came back up, I'll just say that I think it's a flawed premise.  I think all of them are pretty good, and the quality has been pretty consistent.  If I had to rank them:

1.  In the Presence of Enemies
2.  The Gift of Music*
3.  A Nightmare To Remember
4.  Untethered Angel
5.  On the Back of Angels
6.  The Root of All Evil
7.  The Enemy Inside
8.  As I Am

*Yeah, I get why you listed this as an "opening track."  Better comparison to compare full songs vs. an intro/instrumental.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline geeeemo

  • Posts: 580
  • Gender: Female
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10607 on: June 03, 2021, 10:18:06 PM »
How I rank them:

ItPoE
Nightmare
Root
OtBoA
As I Am
UA
TGoM
Enemy (I really dislike this song - as much as I can dislike DT)


Offline IDontNotDoThings

  • Posts: 3386
  • Gender: Female
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10608 on: June 03, 2021, 10:54:12 PM »
1. A Nightmare To Remember
2. The Root of All Evil
3. The Gift of Music
4. In the Presence of Enemies Part 1
5. On The Backs Of Angels
6. The Enemy Inside
7. Untethered Angel
8. As I Am

Offline Trav86

  • Posts: 554
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10609 on: June 04, 2021, 05:13:33 AM »
Always finding new things to rank!  :lol

1. As I Am
2. On the Backs of Angels
3. The Gift of Music
4. In the Presence of Enemies
5. Untethered Angel
6. The Enemy Inside
7. The Root of All Evil
8. A Nightmare to Remember
Can't we find the minds
to lead us closer to the heart?

Offline IgnotusPerIgnotium

  • Posts: 116
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10610 on: June 04, 2021, 05:24:38 AM »
Yeah, I also noticed that one list was in chronological order and the other in reverse order.  Seemed like intentionally trying to create mismatches due to bias, so I just laughed off the list and didn't bother to respond.  But since it came back up, I'll just say that I think it's a flawed premise.  I think all of them are pretty good, and the quality has been pretty consistent.

I chose to do a reverse list because they're equal enjoyable to me and show the consistency behind them. Their quality stems from being powerful, different and with more character. The other list ranks itself in the exact order as they released them, imo of course. Especially in DoT it seems that if UA wasn't the opening track, every other track could have taken its place and it would be just the same.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 10:44:10 AM by IgnotusPerIgnotium »

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 12711
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10611 on: June 04, 2021, 07:21:34 AM »
If I were to rank those opening tracks.

1. In The Presence of Enemies pt.1
2. The Root of All Evil
3. The Gift of Music
4. A Nightmare to Remember
5. On The Backs of Angels
6. The Enemy Inside
7. Untethered Angel
8. As I Am
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline darkshade

  • Posts: 3673
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10612 on: June 04, 2021, 09:48:49 AM »
I loved Octavarium when it came out but overall, the songs just seem weak in retrospect. These Walls would be a standout for me along with the title track, while Never Enough is bottom of the barrel DT imo.

Octavarium (the album) is one of those albums where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, though obviously the title track is a supreme DT song.
I don't listen to the other individual tracks as much, as I really enjoy the album experience that 8vm provides, what with the changing keys theme, and the "in between" tracks that connect each other. I find the songs way more enjoyable in the context of the album, besides the title track (and I do like throwing on Sacrificed Sons by itself on occasion) The format also splits the album up reminiscent of old vinyl releases. The first 4 songs is like side A, the next 3 are side B, and the title track takes up the entire side C.

Offline darkshade

  • Posts: 3673
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10613 on: June 04, 2021, 09:56:28 AM »
I agree that the opening songs in the MM era have been getting weaker with each album.

On The Backs of Angels
FAS/The Enemy Inside
DotN/Dystopian Overture/The Gift of Music
Untethered Angel

OTBOA is the best opener in the MM era, TEI works as an opener, but it's such a weak DT song.
The opening run on TA is some of the better music on TA, and I actually find UA to be bad as an opener. Sounds like a 2nd or 3rd track song, like A Rite of Passage.

Offline Dublagent66

  • Dark to Light...
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 8366
  • Gender: Male
  • ...Light to Dark
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10614 on: June 04, 2021, 10:08:47 AM »
I must admit that I was initially put off by Untethered Angel.  Not so much now, but it is weaker than most of their openers.  The rest of the album makes up for it.

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 12711
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10615 on: June 04, 2021, 10:48:31 AM »
Now when one says "weaker", what exactly are you meaning by it?

For me, it depends on what the purpose of the album opener is.

If it's meant to draw you in, then I can see it a bit.

But, also, the Mangini era album openers are in fact their singles. And all these openers in fact, sound alike to me, and this started once they made Constant Motion a single. After that we got A Rite of Passage, and it has a similar structure to Constant Motion, solo section included, but with a JR high note bend instead of a JP whammy bar note bend. Since then, each single has followed a certain type of structure, and sound, OTBOA/TEI/UA all have a similar sound and structure, although Untethered Angel doesn't really follow that style as much as OTBOA/TEI/AROP/CM do.

Untethered Angel, is the first single where I thought, ok, this is the single song, and the one that will open the forthcoming tour, it's not bad, it's ok. The meat is what comes after. And with D/T, they made all the first 3 songs their singles. I think they made this track-listing like this to draw in the newer casual fans. To me D/T has a nice flow going from their single, metal-style type of songs, into their more obscure. Pale Blue Dot is a great closer, and one of their songs with a more obscure structure. It's not their usual epic style album closer either, this album closer is more of a closer that doesn't resolve, but keeps you in suspense, like being left floating in space.

I wouldn't include The Astonishing in this at all, due to it being a concept album, and it's the same with SFAM.

I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline HOF

  • Posts: 2763
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10616 on: June 04, 2021, 03:19:09 PM »
Octavarium is when I went "hmmm, do I still really like this band?" I just couldn't really get into any of it except I Walk Beside You, which is a nice pop tune. I found the title track to be especially corny.

Offline TheCountOfNYC

  • Posts: 4536
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10617 on: June 04, 2021, 03:49:18 PM »
I guess we’re ranking the opening tracks now…

01: The Root of All Evil
02: A Nightmare to Remember
03: As I Am
04: Pull Me Under
05: 6:00
06: The Glass Prison
07: In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 1
08: On the Backs of Angels
09: Untethered Angel
10: False Awakening Suite
11: A Fortune in Lies
12: New Millennium
13: Regression
14: Decent of the Nomacs
People figured out that the white thing that comes out of cows' titties could be drunk, and the relation between sweet desires and women's bellies growing up for 9 months. It can't be THAT hard to figure out how a trumpet works.”

-MirrorMask

Offline Enigmachine

  • Posts: 1278
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10618 on: June 05, 2021, 05:03:38 AM »
And all these openers in fact, sound alike to me, and this started once they made Constant Motion a single. After that we got A Rite of Passage, and it has a similar structure to Constant Motion, solo section included, but with a JR high note bend instead of a JP whammy bar note bend.

I see this comparison often and I have to say, I don't really know how people hear it. I mean yeah, they're both metal songs with a fairly lengthy instrumental section and yes, from a birds-eye-view are both intro-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-instrumental-chorus-outro... but when one looks a bit further, the similarity tends to break. The second verse in both tracks deviates from the first in both, but ARoP keeps a similar vibe for its duration while Constant Motion goes to two separate melodic ideas and then returns to the first verse's template. It also has that "I try to shut it down" bit in the middle of the first verse that has the feeling of either a pre-chorus or a bridge, but never returns. Meanwhile, ARoP has a pretty definitive pre-chorus with the "Beneath the ever watchful eye" section that repeats twice. Add in the fact that both are musically very different songs and how one instrumental section is a drastic tempo shift while the other follows in the momentum of the song's frantic pace and the comparison feels even less obvious.

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 12711
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10619 on: June 05, 2021, 08:14:20 AM »
And all these openers in fact, sound alike to me, and this started once they made Constant Motion a single. After that we got A Rite of Passage, and it has a similar structure to Constant Motion, solo section included, but with a JR high note bend instead of a JP whammy bar note bend.

I see this comparison often and I have to say, I don't really know how people hear it. I mean yeah, they're both metal songs with a fairly lengthy instrumental section and yes, from a birds-eye-view are both intro-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-instrumental-chorus-outro... but when one looks a bit further, the similarity tends to break. The second verse in both tracks deviates from the first in both, but ARoP keeps a similar vibe for its duration while Constant Motion goes to two separate melodic ideas and then returns to the first verse's template. It also has that "I try to shut it down" bit in the middle of the first verse that has the feeling of either a pre-chorus or a bridge, but never returns. Meanwhile, ARoP has a pretty definitive pre-chorus with the "Beneath the ever watchful eye" section that repeats twice. Add in the fact that both are musically very different songs and how one instrumental section is a drastic tempo shift while the other follows in the momentum of the song's frantic pace and the comparison feels even less obvious.

Well yeah, that's what makes it, its own song.

It's the structure of both is where the comparison is. Both have that same structure that is pretty similar. Both are metal songs, as well, and are meant to be catchy. But that reason alone, is why I don't like both. Even though both are great songs as well.

I actually prefer AROP actual main riff, but do not really enjoy the subject matter. Although, it is fascinating that JP would write about Freemasons.

Constant Motion has the awesome instrumental solo. And I actually like MP's drumming in this song, mainly his cymbal work. And how the instrumental starts with a JM solo riff before the band comes in...
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline EraVulgaris

  • Posts: 96
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10620 on: June 05, 2021, 09:36:28 AM »
Viper King is a Top 5 Dream Theater song.

Offline geeeemo

  • Posts: 580
  • Gender: Female
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10621 on: June 05, 2021, 09:44:50 AM »
Listening to live Dream Theater albums is more enjoyable than listening to their studio albums. Even Once in a LIVEtime. There is just more texture, even with the occasional missed note by JLB. I like hearing the little differences.

Offline Setlist Scotty

  • Posts: 3308
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10622 on: June 05, 2021, 12:41:45 PM »
Listening to live Dream Theater albums is more enjoyable than listening to their studio albums. Even Once in a LIVEtime. There is just more texture, even with the occasional missed note by JLB. I like hearing the little differences.
I can relate to that. I'll take it a step further and admit that I've been listening to audience bootlegs more than studio releases or official live releases for the same reason.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline geeeemo

  • Posts: 580
  • Gender: Female
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10623 on: June 05, 2021, 12:50:01 PM »
Listening to live Dream Theater albums is more enjoyable than listening to their studio albums. Even Once in a LIVEtime. There is just more texture, even with the occasional missed note by JLB. I like hearing the little differences.
I can relate to that. I'll take it a step further and admit that I've been listening to audience bootlegs more than studio releases or official live releases for the same reason.

Perfection is a tad overrated I think. I want to hear the human-ness. And ya bootlegs give you that audience element that is fun, like you are standing next to them waiting, watching your fave band..I love that feeling at the concerts!

Offline TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 49967
  • Gender: Male
  • Kip Rolled
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10624 on: June 05, 2021, 12:59:51 PM »
Usually if I go on a DT binge, it's pretty much all boots.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Volante99

  • Posts: 786
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10625 on: June 07, 2021, 10:44:28 AM »
Octavarium is when I went "hmmm, do I still really like this band?" I just couldn't really get into any of it except I Walk Beside You, which is a nice pop tune. I found the title track to be especially corny.

Hot take but this is how I felt with D/T.

DT12 was weak, and then we had The Astonishing insanity. Now D/T was supposed to be their big return to form and, honestly, it just sounds like DT12- Part 2. It’s weird coming to the realization that you haven’t REALLY liked anything from your favorite band in nearly a decade.

Offline Max Kuehnau

  • Emotionless Brainiac
  • Posts: 2031
  • Gender: Male
  • Doomed to be a man this world forgot
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10626 on: June 07, 2021, 12:57:27 PM »
Octavarium is when I went "hmmm, do I still really like this band?" I just couldn't really get into any of it except I Walk Beside You, which is a nice pop tune. I found the title track to be especially corny.

Hot take but this is how I felt with D/T.

DT12 was weak, and then we had The Astonishing insanity. Now D/T was supposed to be their big return to form and, honestly, it just sounds like DT12- Part 2. It’s weird coming to the realization that you haven’t REALLY liked anything from your favorite band in nearly a decade.
this is what I thought of (and still do) of D/T, seriously. (and IMHO, D/T isn't even remotely close to DT12 part 2, far more basic than DT12. Too basic.)
"Life's greatest battles often are fought alone"

Offline Volante99

  • Posts: 786
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10627 on: June 07, 2021, 02:21:35 PM »
Octavarium is when I went "hmmm, do I still really like this band?" I just couldn't really get into any of it except I Walk Beside You, which is a nice pop tune. I found the title track to be especially corny.

Hot take but this is how I felt with D/T.

DT12 was weak, and then we had The Astonishing insanity. Now D/T was supposed to be their big return to form and, honestly, it just sounds like DT12- Part 2. It’s weird coming to the realization that you haven’t REALLY liked anything from your favorite band in nearly a decade.
this is what I thought of (and still do) of D/T, seriously. (and IMHO, D/T isn't even remotely close to DT12 part 2, far more basic than DT12. Too basic.)

Yeah, the more I think of it I’d probably rank DT12 over D/T.

DT12 has some decent riffs (Looking Glass, Enemy Inside) some memorable hooks (Surrender to Reason, Bigger Picture) and an epic Illumination Theory, which I don’t really like, but it’s a good effort. Along for the Ride is really the only offensively bad tune.

The only memorable tunes in D/T for me are Barstool Warrior, At Wits End, and S2N and even the latter two dont really work as a whole for me. Room 137 and Viper King are probably in the bottom 10 songs the band has ever done and the “flagship” tune Pale Blue Dot is easily the longest 8 minutes of the band’s discography  :P

Offline MoraWintersoul

  • Gloom Cookie
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6459
  • Gender: Female
  • type :mora: for a surprise
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10628 on: June 07, 2021, 03:33:56 PM »
Controversial opinion: we should call DT12 S/T and D/T DOT instead. Back in the day we did DT for DT12 sometimes and then I thought the abbreviation was DT13 instead because it was released in 2013 and I knowwww D/T is very clever but it takes some braining to make that word go.

Quote
Don't try to BS her about Kevin Moore facts, she will obscure quote you in the face.
You consistently make so much sense, and express yourself so eloquently, that I've decided you're basically a female version of robwebster.

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 43749
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10629 on: June 07, 2021, 03:53:08 PM »
Viper King is a Top 5 Dream Theater song.
I'm glad that someone finally had the courage to say it.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Setlist Scotty

  • Posts: 3308
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10630 on: June 07, 2021, 03:55:18 PM »
Controversial opinion: we should call DT12 S/T and D/T DOT instead. Back in the day we did DT for DT12 sometimes and then I thought the abbreviation was DT13 instead because it was released in 2013 and I knowwww D/T is very clever but it takes some braining to make that word go.
Call them what you want. I prefer to refer to them as s/t and d/t myself.   :)
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline darkshade

  • Posts: 3673
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10631 on: June 07, 2021, 04:25:19 PM »
DoT has not aged well for me. I first thought it was a return to form (for the Mangini era) but I've realized it is as "bad" as DT12, maybe worse.
While DoT has better production, the songs just aren't there, except for a few, and JLB's limitations cannot be masked any more with studio magic, not to mention his vocals are drenched in effects like never before. I've also grown tired of Rudess' playing in DT.
 
Besides production, DT12 suffers from bad track listing IMO, and works WAAAAYYYY better with an altered track order, and overall I think the songs themselves are stronger on DT12 than on DoT.

DoT has the best song from both albums (Barstool Warrior) but DT12 has the flawed epic IT, whereas DoT's epic seems castrated and shortened for the sake of it instead of fleshing it out more.

Offline HOF

  • Posts: 2763
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10632 on: June 07, 2021, 04:25:32 PM »
Controversial opinion: we should call DT12 S/T and D/T DOT instead. Back in the day we did DT for DT12 sometimes and then I thought the abbreviation was DT13 instead because it was released in 2013 and I knowwww D/T is very clever but it takes some braining to make that word go.

I still have a hard time with calling Rush’s Grace Under Pressure p/g after all these years.

Offline darkshade

  • Posts: 3673
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10633 on: June 07, 2021, 04:28:32 PM »
I've always called it DoT, not D/T, there is no / in the title.

Same with IaW, it's not I&W.

DT12 just makes it easier for most to understand which album we're talking about, it's their self-titled 12th album. That's what you get for self-titling your 12th album.

Offline TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 49967
  • Gender: Male
  • Kip Rolled
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10634 on: June 07, 2021, 04:31:02 PM »
I definitely use the & in I&W.


I use DoT and not D/T.

But at least D/T reads left to right as opposed to P/G.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline pg1067

  • Posts: 7009
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10635 on: June 07, 2021, 04:52:37 PM »
I imagine the ONLY reason folks use p/g (lower case) for Grace Under Pressure is because "p/g" appears on the album cover.  Someone (I believe it was back on the MP forums) insisted that "GUP" was not a proper shorthand and that only "p/g" was correct.  Because of that, I've exclusively used GUP ever since.

For me:

Dream Theater is DT12.

Distance over Time is DOT.

Images and Words is I&W.  The difference between "I&W" and "IaW" is insignificant, and insisting that one must use "a," instead of "&," because the word "and" is spelled out in the title is excessively pedantic.

I have long since stopped bothering with making articles and prepositions lower case when using acronyms.  "TOWHtStS" is just too much of a pain.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 09:48:52 AM by pg1067 »
"There's a bass solo in a song called Metropolis where I do a bass solo."  John Myung

Offline ReaPsTA

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 9520
  • Gender: Male
  • Lost within a world I chose to hide
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10636 on: June 07, 2021, 05:37:05 PM »
I knowwww D/T is very clever but it takes some braining to make that word go.

It's like a nice massage for my gray matter
We must learn to rise above the past
Before we can at last
Begin again

Offline TheCountOfNYC

  • Posts: 4536
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10637 on: June 07, 2021, 07:08:51 PM »
WDaDU
IaW
Awake
ACoS
FII
SFaM
SDoIT
TOT (because Trial of Tears is ToT)
8vm
SC
BC&SL
ADToE
DT12
TA
D/T
People figured out that the white thing that comes out of cows' titties could be drunk, and the relation between sweet desires and women's bellies growing up for 9 months. It can't be THAT hard to figure out how a trumpet works.”

-MirrorMask

Offline IDontNotDoThings

  • Posts: 3386
  • Gender: Female
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10638 on: June 07, 2021, 07:13:54 PM »
I always use & to note "and" in acronyms, both because it gives more information & because I always use it in writing anyway.

(except WDADU, because it sounds funny to say out loud :lol)

Offline Setlist Scotty

  • Posts: 3308
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10639 on: June 07, 2021, 09:35:43 PM »
WDaDU
IaW
Awake
ACoS
FII
SFaM
SDoIT
TOT (because Trial of Tears is ToT)
8vm
SC
BC&SL
ADToE
DT12
TA
D/T
Pretty close to how I would do it. Changes are ToT (pretty easy to determine what I'm speaking about based on the context), 8v, BCaSL, s/t and d/t. I write d/t lowercase since it is an equation and appears as lowercase in the artwork.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.