Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Dublagent66]

I'll take the triggered snare over the snare that sounds like Oscar the grouch banging on his trash can lid in FII. 

[TheCountOfNYC]

I'll take the triggered snare over the snare that sounds like Oscar the grouch banging on his trash can lid in FII. 

Wow and here I am thinking that FII has Dream Theater's best recorded drum sound.

[TAC]

FII is probably DT's best sounding album. Too bad they wasted it on an album that blows.

[Trav]

I'll take the triggered snare over the snare that sounds like Oscar the grouch banging on his trash can lid in FII. 

Wow and here I am thinking that FII has Dream Theater's best recorded drum sound.

I think FII has the best overall production but SFAM has the best drum sound.

[HOF]

I'll take the triggered snare over the snare that sounds like Oscar the grouch banging on his trash can lid in FII. 

Wow and here I am thinking that FII has Dream Theater's best recorded drum sound.

I think FII has the best overall production but SFAM has the best drum sound.

I'll go FII for best drum sound, then SDOIT. I like Awake a lot too, but could see the reverb on the snare being a turn off (I think that's what it is). In contrast, the drums on SFAM seem a bit too dry. 

[Kotowboy]

Awake has that early 90s drum sound which is too clean and too much reverb.

The Therapy? album Nurse has a similar drum sound where it sounded like they were tracked in an empty swimming pool.

[hunnus2000]

Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

I knew MP was somewhat unhappy with the sound of I&W, but if they hated working with Prater so much (and vice versa) why did they bring him back to record/produce ACOS? And did the falling out happen over those sessions moreso I wonder (if MP insisted on that tiny, tinny piccolo snare as a response to the triggered sound on I&W)?

If I remember correctly, because ACoS was the first recording they did after Kevin left, they were trying to capture the vibe of IaW, hence why they also went back to Beartracks for the recording. MP insisted on his snare NOT being triggered, so that super tiny piccolo snare was the compromise to get a snare sound closer to what Prater wanted while still having it be a natural snare sound like Portnoy wanted.

That does sound familiar now (about the snare being a compromise), but I've always thought it sounded about as opposite as the I&W sound as you can get.

Just to add to this, I think Mike said they didn't use a piccolo snare, it was in fact the same kit/snare used on Awake, but Prater insisted on tuning it super high.

Also, since we're talking about the production of ACOS and Prater's involvement, I remember JP saying he never liked the guitar solo that made it to the final track. Apparently he just improvised that take and didn't like it, but Prater wouldn't allow him to change it.

I think the production of ACOS is pure suckage. It sounds like like they recorded it in their basement and MP's snare was horrible.

Love the song - hate the production.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

I knew MP was somewhat unhappy with the sound of I&W, but if they hated working with Prater so much (and vice versa) why did they bring him back to record/produce ACOS? And did the falling out happen over those sessions moreso I wonder (if MP insisted on that tiny, tinny piccolo snare as a response to the triggered sound on I&W)?

If I remember correctly, because ACoS was the first recording they did after Kevin left, they were trying to capture the vibe of IaW, hence why they also went back to Beartracks for the recording. MP insisted on his snare NOT being triggered, so that super tiny piccolo snare was the compromise to get a snare sound closer to what Prater wanted while still having it be a natural snare sound like Portnoy wanted.

That does sound familiar now (about the snare being a compromise), but I've always thought it sounded about as opposite as the I&W sound as you can get.

Just to add to this, I think Mike said they didn't use a piccolo snare, it was in fact the same kit/snare used on Awake, but Prater insisted on tuning it super high.

Also, since we're talking about the production of ACOS and Prater's involvement, I remember JP saying he never liked the guitar solo that made it to the final track. Apparently he just improvised that take and didn't like it, but Prater wouldn't allow him to change it.

I think the production of ACOS is pure suckage. It sounds like like they recorded it in their basement and MP's snare was horrible.

Love the song - hate the production.

Yeah the production on ACoS is very cold which I guess fits the song as it's a song about loss and pain, but it's not particularly nice on the ears. I also never liked Derek's keyboard patches so that doesn't help matters and is a big reason why FII is my least favorite DT album despite it having the best production.

[HOF]

Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

I knew MP was somewhat unhappy with the sound of I&W, but if they hated working with Prater so much (and vice versa) why did they bring him back to record/produce ACOS? And did the falling out happen over those sessions moreso I wonder (if MP insisted on that tiny, tinny piccolo snare as a response to the triggered sound on I&W)?

If I remember correctly, because ACoS was the first recording they did after Kevin left, they were trying to capture the vibe of IaW, hence why they also went back to Beartracks for the recording. MP insisted on his snare NOT being triggered, so that super tiny piccolo snare was the compromise to get a snare sound closer to what Prater wanted while still having it be a natural snare sound like Portnoy wanted.

That does sound familiar now (about the snare being a compromise), but I've always thought it sounded about as opposite as the I&W sound as you can get.

Just to add to this, I think Mike said they didn't use a piccolo snare, it was in fact the same kit/snare used on Awake, but Prater insisted on tuning it super high.

Also, since we're talking about the production of ACOS and Prater's involvement, I remember JP saying he never liked the guitar solo that made it to the final track. Apparently he just improvised that take and didn't like it, but Prater wouldn't allow him to change it.

I think the production of ACOS is pure suckage. It sounds like like they recorded it in their basement and MP's snare was horrible.

Love the song - hate the production.

Yeah the production on ACoS is very cold which I guess fits the song as it's a song about loss and pain, but it's not particularly nice on the ears. I also never liked Derek's keyboard patches so that doesn't help matters and is a big reason why FII is my least favorite DT album despite it having the best production.

I like the overall sound on ACOS, but the drums do sound very thin which is jarring and makes it sound not quite right. Still, I think some of the heavier moments sound really good (like that part with the sort of siren sound before the big keyboard solo near the end).

[hunnus2000]

When I found out that they went to an actual studio to record ACOS AND they had a producer I couldn't believe it . My first thought was that they should request a refund.

As far as DS's "keyboard patches", when I think of patches, I think of computers and DS is more of a keyboard purist so he's trying to get sounds out of whatever the keyboard comes with (which I guess are patches?). But JR's soundscape  takes advantage of computer patches which I think makes him a better fit for DT than DS did.

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

Speaking of DS I think he did a great job with ACOS. He combined both the original material paying respects to KM but also brought his flavor in the mix.
Indeed he is a purist when playing and choosing his sounds but considering the time and the challenge he had at hand he did really good.

I think some of his highlights are the gritty hammond and synth sounds, some great pads and effects and also his solo in The Inevitable Summer is very memorable and well composed. There is a youtube video with only his keyboard stem which I think is worth checking out.

[HOF]

Speaking of DS I think he did a great job with ACOS. He combined both the original material paying respects to KM but also brought his flavor in the mix.
Indeed he is a purist when playing and choosing his sounds but considering the time and the challenge he had at hand he did really good.

I think some of his highlights are the gritty hammond and synth sounds, some great pads and effects and also his solo in The Inevitable Summer is very memorable and well composed. There is a youtube video with only his keyboard stem which I think is worth checking out.

Yeah, I really appreciate DS's more organic keyboard approach. I think ACOS had a lot of texture to it as a result. I don't think the production is all that bad, it's just a little unusual. Overall I think it has a lot of light and shade that's missing in DT from about TOT onward.

[Volante99]

The drum sound is actually one of the few good things about the production in ACoS. Snare is a bit high in the mix but I love that natural snap, crackle, pop. Really gives the album its own feel and different dynamic, and for better or worse it really showcases Portnoy's playing.


Opinion; the drums sounds in LTE III and Terminal Velocity beat anything from the Mangini era. However, as much of a MP fan boy that I am, I'm hoping that it has less to do with the "Portnoy factor" and more to do with JP's improving production skills in his new studio space, and a preview of good things to come for DT15. I am cautiously optimistic.

[Trav]

Opinion; the drums sounds in LTE III and Terminal Velocity beat anything from the Mangini era. However, as much of a MP fan boy that I am, I'm hoping that it has less to do with the "Portnoy factor" and more to do with JP's improving production skills in his new studio space, and a preview of good things to come for DT15. I am cautiously optimistic.

It's probably a little bit of both.

[ReaPsTA]

The drum sound is actually one of the few good things about the production in ACoS. Snare is a bit high in the mix but I love that natural snap, crackle, pop. Really gives the album its own feel and different dynamic, and for better or worse it really showcases Portnoy's playing.


Opinion; the drums sounds in LTE III and Terminal Velocity beat anything from the Mangini era. However, as much of a MP fan boy that I am, I'm hoping that it has less to do with the "Portnoy factor" and more to do with JP's improving production skills in his new studio space, and a preview of good things to come for DT15. I am cautiously optimistic.

I think the Mixer from Terminal Velocity is doing DT15?

[gzarruk]

The drum sound is actually one of the few good things about the production in ACoS. Snare is a bit high in the mix but I love that natural snap, crackle, pop. Really gives the album its own feel and different dynamic, and for better or worse it really showcases Portnoy's playing.


Opinion; the drums sounds in LTE III and Terminal Velocity beat anything from the Mangini era. However, as much of a MP fan boy that I am, I'm hoping that it has less to do with the "Portnoy factor" and more to do with JP's improving production skills in his new studio space, and a preview of good things to come for DT15. I am cautiously optimistic.

I think the Mixer from Terminal Velocity is doing DT15?

Not officially confirmed (yet) but we're pretty sure he did

[Dublagent66]

I'll take the triggered snare over the snare that sounds like Oscar the grouch banging on his trash can lid in FII. 

Wow and here I am thinking that FII has Dream Theater's best recorded drum sound.

I think FII has the best overall production but SFAM has the best drum sound.

I'll go FII for best drum sound, then SDOIT. I like Awake a lot too, but could see the reverb on the snare being a turn off (I think that's what it is). In contrast, the drums on SFAM seem a bit too dry.

Awake is probably the best snare sound I've ever heard.

[Trav]

I'll take the triggered snare over the snare that sounds like Oscar the grouch banging on his trash can lid in FII. 

Wow and here I am thinking that FII has Dream Theater's best recorded drum sound.

I think FII has the best overall production but SFAM has the best drum sound.

I'll go FII for best drum sound, then SDOIT. I like Awake a lot too, but could see the reverb on the snare being a turn off (I think that's what it is). In contrast, the drums on SFAM seem a bit too dry.

Awake is probably the best snare sound I've ever heard.

Really?

[DoctorAction]

I also love the drum sound on Awake. That intro to 6:00 ...

To me, it's a great balance of sounding "produced" but still really alive. Awesome.

[Trav]

I also love the drum sound on Awake. That intro to 6:00 ...

To me, it's a great balance of sounding "produced" but still really alive. Awesome.

I think the drums as a whole are fine. But I don't think the snare is the greatest I've ever heard. Opinions though.

[DoctorAction]

 

[CodyWanKenobi]

Train of Thought hands down has DT's best snare sound. BC&SL is second imo. The Terminal Velocity snare reminds me of BC&SL quite a bit.

[Skriller]

Let's see.

For one, I think SDoIT was generally not too great of an album (especially considering the others around that time)
And similarly I think Disappear is one of if not the most underrated Dream Theater tracks (next to Wait for Sleep, which at the very least is overlooked)

Falling Into Infinity was a perfectly fine album, and it has some songs that I love quite a bit (Hollow Years, Trial of Tears)

Systematic Chaos is one of Dream Theater's best albums (And Black Clouds is another fantastic album)

These Walls is one of the worst Dream Theater songs (But the rest of the songs on Octavarium keep the album at a high place anyway)

The self titled album is honestly also a fantastic album (Though Along for the Ride is my least favorite DT song period.)

The Astonishing is arguably worse than WDaDU. (And both are the worst albums)

I don't know how many of these are even controversial (Especially the last one) but they're my opinions that I first think of.

[MirrorMask]

Amazing. Every word of what you said was wrong.



First of all, welcome to the forum, and secondly, obviously I'm kiddin', it's fun to see how different the opinions can differ among fans 

[Skriller]

Amazing. Every word of what you said was wrong.



First of all, welcome to the forum, and secondly, obviously I'm kiddin', it's fun to see how different the opinions can differ among fans 

Lol thanks, I've seen some interesting opinions here so far.

[Mladen]

I agree that Systematic Chaos is fantastic. It's definitely in the top half of Dream Theater albums for me. 

[Zydar]

I agree with your view on TA being worse than WDADU.

[DTA]

I loved Octavarium when it came out but overall, the songs just seem weak in retrospect. These Walls would be a standout for me along with the title track, while Never Enough is bottom of the barrel DT imo.

[ReaperKK]

Systematic Chaos is one of Dream Theater's best albums (And Black Clouds is another fantastic album)

I completely agree with you on SC. It is one of the best DT albums and is far better than say Octavarium.

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

So here's something that I thought about lately regarding the opening tracks of the JP production era. They have progressively become weaker. Just to keep things balanced I'll mention the last 4 albums with the previous 4 albums of MP:

On the Backs of Angels/A Nightmare to Remember
The Enemy Inside/In the Presence of Enemies Pt1
The Gift of Music/The Root of all Evil
Untethered Angel/As I Am

Seeing the songs side by side I personally think that the term epic, though kinda overstated some times in the DT world (and especially by MP), is very profound comparing the opening tracks of each album. I sure hope we get a strong/epic opener this time that we'll safely catalog it in the live staples of the band.

[hefdaddy42]

Let's see.

Welcome to the forum!

Just to show some differences of opinions (and that's all they are):

For one, I think SDoIT was generally not too great of an album (especially considering the others around that time)

I think it's easily one of their finest albums, falling just below the triumvirate of Images & Words, Awake, and Scenes From A Memory.

And similarly I think Disappear is one of if not the most underrated Dream Theater tracks (next to Wait for Sleep, which at the very least is overlooked)

Not sure how underrated Disappear is, but it's definitely a favorite of mine.  I would add that whatever underrating it may suffer from is most likely from the rarity of its live performances (only twice).

Falling Into Infinity was a perfectly fine album, and it has some songs that I love quite a bit (Hollow Years, Trial of Tears)

It certainly is perfectly fine.  The problem is that it came after Images & Words and Awake, both of which were EXCEPTIONAL albums, for which FII suffered by comparison.  If you weren't a fan at the time, I completely understand how that wouldn't be a factor.

BTW, it also contains, among its less stellar offerings, some of my favorites as well (Lines in The Sand, Trial of Tears, etc).

Systematic Chaos is one of Dream Theater's best albums (And Black Clouds is another fantastic album)

I kind of like SC, but I find that the music has little depth, offering surface-level enjoyment only.  It's a great driving album.
But BC&SL is mostly dreck.

These Walls is one of the worst Dream Theater songs (But the rest of the songs on Octavarium keep the album at a high place anyway)

These Walls isn't even one of the worst songs on Octavarium.

The self titled album is honestly also a fantastic album (Though Along for the Ride is my least favorite DT song period.)

I agree about the album, but I love Along For The Ride.

The Astonishing is arguably worse than WDaDU. (And both are the worst albums)

The Astonishing is definitely an oddball in the discography, but worse than WDADU?  No way. 

The only other thing in DT's output worse than WDADU is Raw Dog.



Again, welcome!

[pg1067]

And similarly I think Disappear is one of if not the most underrated Dream Theater tracks (next to Wait for Sleep, which at the very least is overlooked)

You'll find that's not so much the case around here.  IMO, Disappear is MASSIVELY overrated around here.

Falling Into Infinity was a perfectly fine album. . . .

. . .

The Astonishing is arguably worse than WDaDU. (And both are the worst albums)

I don't know how many of these are even controversial (Especially the last one) but they're my opinions that I first think of.

Yeah...these aren't controversial in the slightest, but keep in mind that "perfectly fine" is hardly glowing praise.

Systematic Chaos is one of Dream Theater's best albums (And Black Clouds is another fantastic album)

These are "controversial."  SC is routinely regarded as a bottom 3-4 album (for me, it's 13/14, above only TA).  BC&SL is slightly better, but not by much.

The self titled album is honestly also a fantastic album (Though Along for the Ride is my least favorite DT song period.)

I agree about the album as a whole.  In fact, while Breaking All Illusions is my favorite Mangini era track, DT12 is my favorite of the Mangini albums.  I also love Along for the Ride.

[gzarruk]

So here's something that I thought about lately regarding the opening tracks of the JP production era. They have progressively become weaker. Just to keep things balanced I'll mention the last 4 albums with the previous 4 albums of MP:

On the Backs of Angels/A Nightmare to Remember
The Enemy Inside/In the Presence of Enemies Pt1
The Gift of Music/The Root of all Evil
Untethered Angel/As I Am

Seeing the songs side by side I personally think that the term epic, though kinda overstated some times in the DT world (and especially by MP), is very profound comparing the opening tracks of each album. I sure hope we get a strong/epic opener this time that we'll safely catalog it in the live staples of the band.

That list makes no sense. You're comparing songs from the 4 MM era albums in chronological order with songs from the last 4 MP era albums in reverse chronological order, why?

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

That list makes no sense. You're comparing songs from the 4 MM era albums in chronological order with songs from the last 4 MP era albums in reverse chronological order, why?

Well like I mentioned I tried to compare the last 4 albums with MM and their last 4 albums before MP left just to show that indeed at least in my point of view they aren't as strong and epic as they've done moving forward. The one side showed that there was a consistency behind openers and the other side that although very good (On the Back's of Angels i.e) and moving forward they have become less capable to make me that more excited.

[pg1067]

So here's something that I thought about lately regarding the opening tracks of the JP production era. They have progressively become weaker. Just to keep things balanced I'll mention the last 4 albums with the previous 4 albums of MP:

On the Backs of Angels/A Nightmare to Remember
The Enemy Inside/In the Presence of Enemies Pt1
The Gift of Music/The Root of all Evil
Untethered Angel/As I Am

Seeing the songs side by side I personally think that the term epic, though kinda overstated some times in the DT world (and especially by MP), is very profound comparing the opening tracks of each album. I sure hope we get a strong/epic opener this time that we'll safely catalog it in the live staples of the band.

That list makes no sense. You're comparing songs from the 4 MM era albums in chronological order with songs from the last 4 MP era albums in reverse chronological order, why?

I kinda wondered the same thing.

Also, IMO, AIA > Root > Enemy > OTBOA > UA > TGOM > Nightmare > ITPOE, and TGOM isn't the opening track on TA.  It's the first track with lyrics, but I'm not sure why Dystopian Overture would be ignored.