Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 711521 times)

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Offline geeeemo

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10535 on: May 18, 2021, 10:13:52 AM »
So Greatest Hit was important for me. I discovered DT was overwhelmed by the amount of music they had! I didn't know where to start and some songs are just easier to take when you are new to DT than others.  Home, TRoaE, SS were my first favorites and I remember being giddy with them! Soon after, I started shuffle play and heard the full version of Home...I can still remember where I was and what I was doing. And realizing that Greatest Hit was in the rear-view mirror.

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10536 on: May 18, 2021, 03:06:37 PM »
So Greatest Hit was important for me. I discovered DT was overwhelmed by the amount of music they had! I didn't know where to start and some songs are just easier to take when you are new to DT than others.  Home, TRoaE, SS were my first favorites and I remember being giddy with them! Soon after, I started shuffle play and heard the full version of Home...I can still remember where I was and what I was doing. And realizing that Greatest Hit was in the rear-view mirror.
Was it a bit disorienting to hear the full version after becoming familiar with the single edit (of that or any of the other single edits on GH+21)?
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline geeeemo

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10537 on: May 18, 2021, 03:23:17 PM »
So Greatest Hit was important for me. I discovered DT was overwhelmed by the amount of music they had! I didn't know where to start and some songs are just easier to take when you are new to DT than others.  Home, TRoaE, SS were my first favorites and I remember being giddy with them! Soon after, I started shuffle play and heard the full version of Home...I can still remember where I was and what I was doing. And realizing that Greatest Hit was in the rear-view mirror.
Was it a bit disorienting to hear the full version after becoming familiar with the single edit (of that or any of the other single edits on GH+21)?
Nope!  It was glorious!!! One of the things that I loved about DT from the beginning, were how long the songs were. So, it was like yes!!! ..and let me hit the repeat button!!

Offline CDrice

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10538 on: May 18, 2021, 05:19:23 PM »
The Greatest Hits was also important for me as it was my first real exposure to the band. The reason I went with it is because the guitar teacher I had a few years before taught me some parts of Pull me Under, Ytse Jam and Peruvian Skies. At the time I was more into pop punk. So so while I thought it was cool music I didn't dig further.

Years later I was looking to expand my music tastes as what I listened to didn't satisfied me anymore and since I had heard of Dream Theater from that teacher and a few people in college I grabbed the greatest hits since it had two of the three songs I had learned and I could therefore try and play along them. I mostly cared about the dark side disk, but wow did it blew me away. And then Black Clouds and Silver Linings got released some time later and that cemented my love for the band.

Was it a bit disorienting to hear the full version after becoming familiar with the single edit (of that or any of the other single edits on GH+21)?
Nope!  It was glorious!!! One of the things that I loved about DT from the beginning, were how long the songs were. So, it was like yes!!! ..and let me hit the repeat button!!

To me it was. It felt jarring at first to hear Misunderstood and Home had all those other parts that I didn't know. It took some time to adjust. But now it's really jarring to listen to the edits  :lol

Offline DTA

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10539 on: May 19, 2021, 05:50:53 AM »
Even the "ghost note" criticism is baseless. I can clearly hear softer ghost notes in Learning To Live's first verse and MP has never been one to utilize ghost notes with any regularity anyway. The snare in the remix sounds wimpy and flat and greatly reduces the power of the drum part as a whole. I&W sounds crystal clear and expansive and it boggles my mind that a bunch of 24 year olds could make their 2nd album sound so immaculate but that same group of 50 year olds can't make an album sound good to save their lives.

Okay, I think I misspoke when I said "ghost notes", because I did indeed forget about the beginning of Learning to Live (I might've caught some in Take the Time too when I listened today, but I could be wrong). What I mean is more, you know when he does those rapid snare fills in Metropolis? When there are so many snare hits in a row, you notice how all the samples for the big snare hit are exactly the same. If I remember correctly, he does a similar sort of fill in the beginning of You Not Me and the difference is pretty astounding. It instantly just sounds much more real, while the Metropolis fills almost have the feeling of a drum machine glitching out. Like, even a hit that I'm pretty sure is supposed to be anticipatory sounds out at exactly the same velocity as all the others. The natural variation in force, not just velocity, of all those kinds of fills are just completely flattened out and that definitely catches the ear for a listener who isn't used to hearing that. Even when a lightly tapped hit and a forceful one are edited to be the same volume, there's still a clear difference in which one sounds more intense and that kind of potential depth of timbre is just entirely thrown out with this kind of decision (which also applies to the kick as well).

I have a feeling that this would be fine if MP knew and approved of this sampled approach beforehand so that he could adapt his actual parts to suit that fact, but instead Prater fit a square peg in a circular hole and went forward with that without the band's consent. I think the production of Images and Words is probably one of the more stark examples of labels/producers not really getting the band and flattening the dynamics and sonics of a drum performance (which may very well work for a slick AOR album with fairly streamlined rhythmic parts) is absolutely symptomatic of that misunderstanding in my view.

Even EZDrummer automatically alternates samples to get a more organic sound and when you turn that off, you get something closer to what we get in Images. I don't have a problem with triggered drums as a whole and there are many examples of it being used to great effect. The problem is the total lack of variation in timbre for all the primary snare hits, which often makes it hard (for me, at least) to imagine MP actually playing it, when I can easily do that for something like Six Degrees or Scenes. I do also agree that the remixed version sounds significantly worse because for all my gripes with the original, at least it all forms a coherent aesthetic and I can still kinda take it for what it is. I think, going into the mindset of not expecting an authentic drum sound, Images still sounds very pristine. I still very much enjoy the album but it just has this area where I feel like it could've been improved.

That's a fair assessment and I agree about the machine gun note snare fills sounding "off", but they fit the album's production style so they never bugged me. I imagine MP was a lot more annoyed since it happened to him without his knowledge, but still, I'd take that sound over the weak, flat sound of his snare on the remix. An Awake snare sound with the rest of I&W would really sound great. Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.


Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10540 on: May 19, 2021, 06:13:08 AM »
Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

Quote
In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

Offline ReaperKK

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10541 on: May 19, 2021, 06:19:34 AM »
I need to read lifting shadows again :lol

Offline Zydar

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10542 on: May 19, 2021, 06:20:50 AM »
Ah yes, David Prater :lol "Ungrateful little girly-man".
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Offline DTA

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10543 on: May 19, 2021, 06:30:33 AM »
Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

Quote
In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

Damn, Prater is a savage.  :lol

Of course Portnoy would know the bass drums were triggered too as the actual trigger device itself would hook onto the bass drum.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10544 on: May 19, 2021, 06:37:40 AM »
I never understood the hate for the triggered run sound of I&w. Countless albums use triggered bass and drums in post production. Rick beato did a fantastic video on this a while back. It's of it's time but so is the whole images album.

Apparently the drums on Hardwired to Self Destruct have samples buried in the mix. Greg Fidelman said that you can barely hear them but they do help the overall drum sound.

Offline DoctorAction

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10545 on: May 19, 2021, 07:58:03 AM »
They also sound annoyingly similar, hit after hit.
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Offline Enigmachine

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10546 on: May 19, 2021, 08:02:35 AM »
In regards to the Prater vs MP thing, it's safe to say that MP has been kinda vindicated honestly. Even if many do like the sound of I&W, it's safe to say that people generally prefer the production on albums like FII and SDoIT as well as the Liquid Tension Experiment albums, the drum sound very much a part of that. The irony is that if Prater had been more accomodating and open minded about what the band wanted, walking the line between compromise and nudging the band in a viable direction, he might still be in demand nowadays but instead, he pretty much fell into irrelevance by making his name as an insufferable snob that is largely known for making DT's life hellish for a time. On the flip-side, albums like LTE3 and the last few Neal Morse albums, from what I know are praised for their crisp, dynamic drum sound with little to no disagreement on that front, while I&W's production choices are polarising to this day.

I'm also kind of baffled that Prater pointed out that the kick was triggered as if that's some kind of gotcha moment, given that the variation of timbre with a kick is generally going to be far less noticable than with a snare, so it's likely that MP just tolerated that side of things more.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10547 on: May 19, 2021, 08:54:32 AM »
I don't fuss with "sounds" as much as some do, but almost every one of my favorite drummers has at least one moment where I'm like "that sounds like ASS."    Neil Peart:   Grace Under Pressure (how you neuter one of the most powerful drummers in the history of rock like that; that should be a hate crime).    Phil Collins:  Genesis/Invisible Touch (I LOVE the "Phil Collins drum sound", frankly; I frequently put on Abacab JUST to hear the drums.  But that doesn't translate to Genesis or parts of Invisible Touch).  John Bonham:   In Through The Out Door (good, not great; it is a shade echo-ey and bouncy for me).   

I cannot say that about Mike Portnoy.  I don't think I've ever heard him and thought, "wow, Mike sounds like ASS."

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10548 on: May 19, 2021, 08:59:47 AM »
I agree with that, Stadler.  Portnoy has always gotten a great sound of his drums. Even on albums where the mix left a bit to be desired (some of the DT ones in the 00's, Neal's Sola Scriptura), his drums still always sounded great.  No clue if it is the way he mics them or whatever, but he obviously knows how to make them sound great on a studio album.

Offline pg1067

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10549 on: May 19, 2021, 09:49:07 AM »
In regards to the Prater vs MP thing, it's safe to say that MP has been kinda vindicated honestly. Even if many do like the sound of I&W, it's safe to say that people generally prefer the production on albums like FII and SDoIT as well as the Liquid Tension Experiment albums, the drum sound very much a part of that.

It is?  "People generally prefer"?  Which people?  And how do you know what these "people generally prefer"?

I would submit that the "people" to whom you are referring are the VERY small number of people who are actually aware of the issue and have vocalized an opinion about it.  Even then, I don't think there's any consensus, and I'd further submit that many folks who have expressed an opinion on the issue would never have known about it if MP hadn't been so vocal about it.  In other words, I don't think it's safe to say any of those things.
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10550 on: May 19, 2021, 09:55:33 AM »
Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

Quote
In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

I knew MP was somewhat unhappy with the sound of I&W, but if they hated working with Prater so much (and vice versa) why did they bring him back to record/produce ACOS? And did the falling out happen over those sessions moreso I wonder (if MP insisted on that tiny, tinny piccolo snare as a response to the triggered sound on I&W)?

Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10551 on: May 19, 2021, 12:09:23 PM »
Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

Quote
In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

I knew MP was somewhat unhappy with the sound of I&W, but if they hated working with Prater so much (and vice versa) why did they bring him back to record/produce ACOS? And did the falling out happen over those sessions moreso I wonder (if MP insisted on that tiny, tinny piccolo snare as a response to the triggered sound on I&W)?

If I remember correctly, because ACoS was the first recording they did after Kevin left, they were trying to capture the vibe of IaW, hence why they also went back to Beartracks for the recording. MP insisted on his snare NOT being triggered, so that super tiny piccolo snare was the compromise to get a snare sound closer to what Prater wanted while still having it be a natural snare sound like Portnoy wanted.
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10552 on: May 19, 2021, 12:49:48 PM »
Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

Quote
In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

I knew MP was somewhat unhappy with the sound of I&W, but if they hated working with Prater so much (and vice versa) why did they bring him back to record/produce ACOS? And did the falling out happen over those sessions moreso I wonder (if MP insisted on that tiny, tinny piccolo snare as a response to the triggered sound on I&W)?

If I remember correctly, because ACoS was the first recording they did after Kevin left, they were trying to capture the vibe of IaW, hence why they also went back to Beartracks for the recording. MP insisted on his snare NOT being triggered, so that super tiny piccolo snare was the compromise to get a snare sound closer to what Prater wanted while still having it be a natural snare sound like Portnoy wanted.

That does sound familiar now (about the snare being a compromise), but Iíve always thought it sounded about as opposite as the I&W sound as you can get.

Offline gzarruk

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10553 on: May 19, 2021, 12:54:39 PM »
Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

Quote
In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

I knew MP was somewhat unhappy with the sound of I&W, but if they hated working with Prater so much (and vice versa) why did they bring him back to record/produce ACOS? And did the falling out happen over those sessions moreso I wonder (if MP insisted on that tiny, tinny piccolo snare as a response to the triggered sound on I&W)?

If I remember correctly, because ACoS was the first recording they did after Kevin left, they were trying to capture the vibe of IaW, hence why they also went back to Beartracks for the recording. MP insisted on his snare NOT being triggered, so that super tiny piccolo snare was the compromise to get a snare sound closer to what Prater wanted while still having it be a natural snare sound like Portnoy wanted.

That does sound familiar now (about the snare being a compromise), but Iíve always thought it sounded about as opposite as the I&W sound as you can get.

Just to add to this, I think Mike said they didn't use a piccolo snare, it was in fact the same kit/snare used on Awake, but Prater insisted on tuning it super high.

Also, since we're talking about the production of ACOS and Prater's involvement, I remember JP saying he never liked the guitar solo that made it to the final track. Apparently he just improvised that take and didn't like it, but Prater wouldn't allow him to change it.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10554 on: May 19, 2021, 01:21:36 PM »
I'm glad that JP solo wasn't changed cause it kicks ass!

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10555 on: May 19, 2021, 02:02:43 PM »
I'm glad that JP solo wasn't changed cause it kicks ass!

Yeah, thatís one of my favorites from him.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10556 on: May 19, 2021, 02:03:20 PM »
Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

Quote
In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

I knew MP was somewhat unhappy with the sound of I&W, but if they hated working with Prater so much (and vice versa) why did they bring him back to record/produce ACOS? And did the falling out happen over those sessions moreso I wonder (if MP insisted on that tiny, tinny piccolo snare as a response to the triggered sound on I&W)?

If I remember correctly, because ACoS was the first recording they did after Kevin left, they were trying to capture the vibe of IaW, hence why they also went back to Beartracks for the recording. MP insisted on his snare NOT being triggered, so that super tiny piccolo snare was the compromise to get a snare sound closer to what Prater wanted while still having it be a natural snare sound like Portnoy wanted.

That does sound familiar now (about the snare being a compromise), but Iíve always thought it sounded about as opposite as the I&W sound as you can get.

Just to add to this, I think Mike said they didn't use a piccolo snare, it was in fact the same kit/snare used on Awake, but Prater insisted on tuning it super high.

Also, since we're talking about the production of ACOS and Prater's involvement, I remember JP saying he never liked the guitar solo that made it to the final track. Apparently he just improvised that take and didn't like it, but Prater wouldn't allow him to change it.

Thatís right about the snare. Itís all coming back to me now.

Offline Enigmachine

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10557 on: May 19, 2021, 02:14:35 PM »
It is?  "People generally prefer"?  Which people?  And how do you know what these "people generally prefer"?

I would submit that the "people" to whom you are referring are the VERY small number of people who are actually aware of the issue and have vocalized an opinion about it.  Even then, I don't think there's any consensus, and I'd further submit that many folks who have expressed an opinion on the issue would never have known about it if MP hadn't been so vocal about it.  In other words, I don't think it's safe to say any of those things.

I think it should've been implicit that I was discussing the part of the fandom that's active in these kinds of discussions. I've also heard people complain about the triggered snare/kick (in servers, on forums and even things like it getting lightheartedly mocked in YouTube comments and not always by people aware of the context like in a few Metal Archives and RYM reviews, with most mentions of the production as a whole seeming to be negative on the latter in particular) often without even knowing about MP taking issue with it and what I say is still true even if what you say about people only talking about it because they're aware of the issue, because it's proportional to those that have an opinion either way on it. Have I done a poll of everyone who's ever listened to these albums and asked them their opinion? Of course not, I'm making an educated guess on the slice of DT involved interactions that I've seen and I doubt they'd have a predisposition to swing either way. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong and if I'm making assumptions that aren't safe to accurately make then fine, but frankly I don't really care. I'm not going to debate the finer details of that kind of claim.

My point wasn't about that. Prater himself was the one who asserted to MP "You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure." which... is absolutely ludicrous. Even if there's no consensus, it proves what I'm trying to say in that Prater is being arrogant about assuming that MP is a failure without his supposed magic touch. If anyone's in a position to talk down to the other like that, it's certainly MP towards Prater, given that he is still in the limelight as one of the most well known drummers in that prog/metal sphere and questionable drum sound is hardly ever the first thing to come to the discussion with the non-Prater material with MP drumming and even if only due to MP bringing it up, it seems to be more likely to crop up around I&W (discounting WDaDU for sounding like a demo though). Meanwhile, I'm fairly comfortable in the claim that David Prater's career has taken a downward trajectory since his two pieces of work with the band. He still tags all the old bands he worked with in like half of his Facebook posts and his credits have dried up considerably. His latest work appears to be from Texas Hippie Coalition... which in my humble opinion doesn't sound particularly great. The only credits since then have been from older appearances, but recounted due to compilations. Compare him to Kevin Shirley's record for perspective, where he's still staying active each year. If I were Prater, I'd probably be reconsidering my approach of assuming that my way is the only way to go, given that kind of disparity (in relation to both Shirley and Portnoy himself).

Offline ReaperKK

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10558 on: May 19, 2021, 02:58:50 PM »
Do you know if the whole kit was triggered or just the snare? The bass drums sound a bit on the triggered side too.

According to a quote from Lifting Shadows, the kick is too.

Quote
In a startling rebuke to the drummer's denigration of the album's sound, Prater's barely suppressed annoyance is all too evident as he addresses his response directly to Portnoy:
"Well Mike, I know exactly how you feel. I think everything you've done without my involvement sounds even more unlistenable, and you did those albums exactly how you wanted. It's a matter of opinion, right, Mike? You've had your show and your track record has been a miserable failure. You even used the same studio, the same engineer and a world-class mixer on virtually every record, and it still sounds like a Chinese fire drill. Michael, you ungrateful little girly-man. If I can keep my mouth shut for 13 years why can't you? Did you know that your kick drums on Images And Words were one hundred percent triggered as well? I've never heard you bellyache about them?  Oh, and by the way did you know that the Atlantic demos were the exact same samples used on Images And Words? Again, I haven't heard or read anything about your disgust for them."

Damn, Prater is a savage.  :lol

Of course Portnoy would know the bass drums were triggered too as the actual trigger device itself would hook onto the bass drum.

You don't always need to have an actual electronic trigger on the drum, you can do it in post.

Here is an interesting video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F916ioSWdts

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10559 on: May 20, 2021, 04:37:45 AM »
They also sound annoyingly similar, hit after hit.

I don't think the drums on HTSD sound robotic. It's as much to do with compression and gating than samples.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10560 on: May 20, 2021, 04:39:24 AM »
I don't fuss with "sounds" as much as some do, but almost every one of my favorite drummers has at least one moment where I'm like "that sounds like ASS."    Neil Peart:   Grace Under Pressure (how you neuter one of the most powerful drummers in the history of rock like that; that should be a hate crime).    Phil Collins:  Genesis/Invisible Touch (I LOVE the "Phil Collins drum sound", frankly; I frequently put on Abacab JUST to hear the drums.  But that doesn't translate to Genesis or parts of Invisible Touch).  John Bonham:   In Through The Out Door (good, not great; it is a shade echo-ey and bouncy for me).   

I cannot say that about Mike Portnoy.  I don't think I've ever heard him and thought, "wow, Mike sounds like ASS."

I'm not the biggest fan of the high pitched rim shots on Train of Thought. But they do make the snare cut through - with everyone being tuned so low.

+ I think it's funny that people pile on the St Anger snare sound when - as a drummer I watch a lot of drumming videos - and a LOT of r'n'b / hip hop / fusion drummers

have a very high pitched 'clangy' snare and nobody says anything.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10561 on: May 20, 2021, 08:41:35 AM »
I definitely understand MP not being happy with that totally fake triggered snare on I&W.

That said, it gives the record an irresistable early 90's vibe. I love the glossy production for what it is, and especially in a song like Another Day it just works so well. The remixes on the Greatest Hit just feel wrong to me.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10562 on: May 20, 2021, 09:04:21 AM »
The triggered snare makes Another Day. Add in the Saxophone and you have their ultimate 90's ballad. Another Day needs a high pitch snappy snare sound that pops.

MP may not have liked it, and could be due to prater not telling him and just doing it anyways. But it was the best decision made because it made that album have a distinct tone and style that just screams early 90's. That snare, I feel, is and was integral to the overall success of Images and Words.
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Offline DoctorAction

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10563 on: May 20, 2021, 11:41:01 AM »
They also sound annoyingly similar, hit after hit.
I don't think the drums on HTSD sound robotic. It's as much to do with compression and gating than samples.

Ok. Whatever it is, it doesn't great to me. Would be improved be a better mix, i think.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 12:14:29 PM by DoctorAction »
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Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10564 on: May 20, 2021, 02:43:29 PM »
They also sound annoyingly similar, hit after hit.
I don't think the drums on HTSD sound robotic. It's as much to do with compression and gating than samples.
Ok. Whatever it is, it doesn't great to me. Would be improved be a better mix, i think.

For what itís worth, the only good drum sound Lars has ever had was on the Black Album.
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10565 on: May 21, 2021, 03:19:46 AM »
Plus Load and Reload. Oh and Garage Inc disc 1. All the Bob Rock albums

except St Anger.

Offline Trav86

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10566 on: May 21, 2021, 04:18:04 AM »
Speaking of snare sounds, the one of WDADU I think is the worst. It sounds like the cheap snare we had in my high school symphonic band.
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Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10567 on: May 21, 2021, 06:49:05 AM »
Plus Load and Reload. Oh and Garage Inc disc 1. All the Bob Rock albums

except St Anger.

I honestly donít like the drum sound on the Load albums. The rest of the production sounds great but the drums have no life to them.
People figured out that the white thing that comes out of cows' titties could be drunk, and the relation between sweet desires and women's bellies growing up for 9 months. It can't be THAT hard to figure out how a trumpet works.Ē

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10568 on: May 21, 2021, 01:06:27 PM »
Speaking of snare sounds, the one of WDADU I think is the worst. It sounds like the cheap snare we had in my high school symphonic band.


The entire sonic spectrum of WDADU is pure swamp ass.  So, the snare drum sounding like shit is just one of dozens of issues with the sound.  The entire album sounds like it was recorded with a mono cassette tape player.


No, the worst sounding snare drum in the entire Dream Theater catalog is on the song A Change of Seasons.  The live tracks on that album sound pretty good, but A Change of Seasons has that snare drum that sounds like there's a paper bag on it.  It really ruins the song for me. 

Offline Trav86

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10569 on: May 21, 2021, 01:41:32 PM »
Speaking of snare sounds, the one of WDADU I think is the worst. It sounds like the cheap snare we had in my high school symphonic band.


The entire sonic spectrum of WDADU is pure swamp ass.  So, the snare drum sounding like shit is just one of dozens of issues with the sound.  The entire album sounds like it was recorded with a mono cassette tape player.


No, the worst sounding snare drum in the entire Dream Theater catalog is on the song A Change of Seasons.  The live tracks on that album sound pretty good, but A Change of Seasons has that snare drum that sounds like there's a paper bag on it.  It really ruins the song for me.

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