Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Ben_Jamin]

On its own, WDaDU is a fine album. Had it been released in '84-86 I think it would have found an audience, but even for 1989 a lot of it sounds dated with a few sprinkles, here and there, of the greatness to come.

It's very hard to get past the production and mix of the studio album. The songs themselves are fine and actually have a quite a lot of energy, you can sense that energy of a young band. But that energy is sucked up and the album doesn't represent that well at all. If it had a more punchier mix, and production, that could reveal that energy that the album is lacking as is.

These songs show themselves live, And you'll hear that energy when listening to these songs played during their early years.

The thing is, you guys are looking at WDaDU after the fact. Had you been there when there was no other DT albums to compare it to, likely your opinion would be different. That certainly is the case for me. Not saying that it sounds perfect by any stretch, but I'm pretty sure you would view it differently even now.

My thought for the day :


Images and Words already sounded dated 13 years later in 2005 when Octavarium came out.

Images and Words sounded dated in 1992

Did you pick it up in 1992?

These songs and their youthful energy are exposed more in the Live shows from that same era, more so than how the album represents that youthful energy of those songs. But that charm of the album is why I also enjoy the album. The production, mix, and especially Charlies vocals, all add to that charm of WDADU.

I actually prefer the studio version of Light Fuse and Get Away, and TOWHTSTS, because of Dominicis vocals.

[Volante99]

Saying something sounds dated is the most baseless criticism ever.  Most music sounds dated in the sense that it sounds of its time.  The Beatles music totally sounds like it's from the 60's, thus it sounds dated as well. 

Besides, even if you do not the triggered drums and/or some of the songs, Images and Words sounds awesome.  You can hear everything clearly, and the melodies literally leap out of the speakers at you.  Most bands who have done all or most of their studio work since the 90's would be so lucky for any of their albums to sound that good.

Gonna agree to disagree on that one. Some of the latter Beatles records sound 10 years ahead of their  time and were revolutionary both musically and production wise- the fact that Tomorrow Never Knows is from 1966 still blows the mind.

Images & Words with the triggered drums and drenched in that Lexicon reverb, is solidly 80s cheese through and through. Don't get me wrong, I&W is musically revolutionary, and amazing for a hundred reasons, but it's production is not one of them.

Totally my (probably controversial) opinion.

[Setlist Scotty]

Images & Words with the triggered drums and drenched in that Lexicon reverb, is solidly 80s cheese through and through. Don't get me wrong, I&W is musically revolutionary, and amazing for a hundred reasons, but it's production is not one of them.

...and you felt this way in 1992 when it was released?

[ReaperKK]

I never understood the hate for the triggered run sound of I&w. Countless albums use triggered bass and drums in post production. Rick beato did a fantastic video on this a while back. It's of it's time but so is the whole images album.

[pg1067]

Maybe these are controversial opinions:

- I have no issue with the snare on I&W and wouldn't have known what it was if MP hadn't said anything about it.

- I never had any issue with the production on any DT album until SC (or thereabouts), and I'd take the production of any of the first three albums over anything they've done int he last 15 years (note that that comment is limited to production).

And, for the record, I heard I&W in 1992 and first heard WDADU in 92 or 93.

[Stadler]

Maybe these are controversial opinions:

- I have no issue with the snare on I&W and wouldn't have known what it was if MP hadn't said anything about it.

- I never had any issue with the production on any DT album until SC (or thereabouts), and I'd take the production of any of the first three albums over anything they've done int he last 15 years (note that that comment is limited to production).

And, for the record, I heard I&W in 1992 and first heard WDADU in 92 or 93.

Yeah, I'm with you (and ReaperKK).  I've been listening to and enjoying I&W from 1992, and I loved it because of James and Mike.  The "triggered" drums never once ever been an issue. 

[Enigmachine]

I think the problem is less the sound (though perhaps part of what gives it that dated character) and more that there are no ghost notes whatsoever and due to that, it lacks a kind of organic quality many of the othe albums have. I mean, hell, even many triggered/electronic kits bother to occasionally add ghost notes to the mix nowadays (such as Tesseract's Altered State). When I re-listened to I&W recently, shortly after listening to some of the Metropolis 2000 bonus material, the difference is pretty striking. One sounds distinctly... sonically manufactured to a sterile degree, almost like MIDI tracks, for the lack of a better description, while the other sounds like the band actually playing the material and it has a visceral impact.

[gzarruk]

IAW drum sound isn't that good, but it's part of the charm of the album. Just listen to the 2007 remixes that appeared on the Greatest Hit... album, they sound better (sonically) but it just feels wrong

[WilliamMunny]

Maybe these are controversial opinions:

- I have no issue with the snare on I&W and wouldn't have known what it was if MP hadn't said anything about it.

- I never had any issue with the production on any DT album until SC (or thereabouts), and I'd take the production of any of the first three albums over anything they've done int he last 15 years (note that that comment is limited to production).

And, for the record, I heard I&W in 1992 and first heard WDADU in 92 or 93.

Yeah, I'm with you (and ReaperKK).  I've been listening to and enjoying I&W from 1992, and I loved it because of James and Mike.  The "triggered" drums never once ever been an issue.

Count me in as someone who experienced the ablum in real time, LOVED the production (which, was very much of it's time and did not, in my opinion, sound dated), and who STILL loves the way the album sounds.

The three remixes have their charm, but I honestly wouldn't want to hear Images any other way.

Also, FWIW, I suspect that many music fans have no idea how many modern rock/metal albums feature 'triggered' drums.

[pg1067]

I like the Greatest Hit remix of PMU because you can hear the bass a bit better.  I've never really noticed a difference with the drums.

[DTA]

I think the problem is less the sound (though perhaps part of what gives it that dated character) and more that there are no ghost notes whatsoever and due to that, it lacks a kind of organic quality many of the othe albums have. I mean, hell, even many triggered/electronic kits bother to occasionally add ghost notes to the mix nowadays (such as Tesseract's Altered State). When I re-listened to I&W recently, shortly after listening to some of the Metropolis 2000 bonus material, the difference is pretty striking. One sounds distinctly... sonically manufactured to a sterile degree, almost like MIDI tracks, for the lack of a better description, while the other sounds like the band actually playing the material and it has a visceral impact.

Even the "ghost note" criticism is baseless. I can clearly hear softer ghost notes in Learning To Live's first verse and MP has never been one to utilize ghost notes with any regularity anyway. The snare in the remix sounds wimpy and flat and greatly reduces the power of the drum part as a whole. I&W sounds crystal clear and expansive and it boggles my mind that a bunch of 24 year olds could make their 2nd album sound so immaculate but that same group of 50 year olds can't make an album sound good to save their lives.

[Enigmachine]

Even the "ghost note" criticism is baseless. I can clearly hear softer ghost notes in Learning To Live's first verse and MP has never been one to utilize ghost notes with any regularity anyway. The snare in the remix sounds wimpy and flat and greatly reduces the power of the drum part as a whole. I&W sounds crystal clear and expansive and it boggles my mind that a bunch of 24 year olds could make their 2nd album sound so immaculate but that same group of 50 year olds can't make an album sound good to save their lives.

Okay, I think I misspoke when I said "ghost notes", because I did indeed forget about the beginning of Learning to Live (I might've caught some in Take the Time too when I listened today, but I could be wrong). What I mean is more, you know when he does those rapid snare fills in Metropolis? When there are so many snare hits in a row, you notice how all the samples for the big snare hit are exactly the same. If I remember correctly, he does a similar sort of fill in the beginning of You Not Me and the difference is pretty astounding. It instantly just sounds much more real, while the Metropolis fills almost have the feeling of a drum machine glitching out. Like, even a hit that I'm pretty sure is supposed to be anticipatory sounds out at exactly the same velocity as all the others. The natural variation in force, not just velocity, of all those kinds of fills are just completely flattened out and that definitely catches the ear for a listener who isn't used to hearing that. Even when a lightly tapped hit and a forceful one are edited to be the same volume, there's still a clear difference in which one sounds more intense and that kind of potential depth of timbre is just entirely thrown out with this kind of decision (which also applies to the kick as well).

I have a feeling that this would be fine if MP knew and approved of this sampled approach beforehand so that he could adapt his actual parts to suit that fact, but instead Prater fit a square peg in a circular hole and went forward with that without the band's consent. I think the production of Images and Words is probably one of the more stark examples of labels/producers not really getting the band and flattening the dynamics and sonics of a drum performance (which may very well work for a slick AOR album with fairly streamlined rhythmic parts) is absolutely symptomatic of that misunderstanding in my view.

Even EZDrummer automatically alternates samples to get a more organic sound and when you turn that off, you get something closer to what we get in Images. I don't have a problem with triggered drums as a whole and there are many examples of it being used to great effect. The problem is the total lack of variation in timbre for all the primary snare hits, which often makes it hard (for me, at least) to imagine MP actually playing it, when I can easily do that for something like Six Degrees or Scenes. I do also agree that the remixed version sounds significantly worse because for all my gripes with the original, at least it all forms a coherent aesthetic and I can still kinda take it for what it is. I think, going into the mindset of not expecting an authentic drum sound, Images still sounds very pristine. I still very much enjoy the album but it just has this area where I feel like it could've been improved.

[TM172003]

same group of 50 year olds can't make an album sound good to save their lives.

You haven't listened to DoT?

[Dedalus]

I don't like the I&W drum sound.
But I really don't care.

[Volante99]

Images & Words with the triggered drums and drenched in that Lexicon reverb, is solidly 80s cheese through and through. Don't get me wrong, I&W is musically revolutionary, and amazing for a hundred reasons, but it's production is not one of them.

...and you felt this way in 1992 when it was released?

I probably heard it first in 1996. I do remember being surprised it was from '92 though and not earlier. I loved the music and because I actually like that 80s sound I didn't (and still dont) have a big problem with it. When I say it sounds dated even 1992 standards, I'm coming from the standpoint that when I listen to I&W, I dont "hear" early 90's production. Queensryche's Empire sounds like early 90's, Fates Warning's Parallels sounds like early 90's. Images & Words sounds like a REALLY talented, revolutionary band being produced by a guy who still REALLY digs hair metal, which is pretty much exactly what it is lol.

[PetFish]

WDADU was one of the top 3 best DT albums














until FII or Scenes was released.

r/showerthoughts

[KevShmev]

IAW drum sound isn't that good, but it's part of the charm of the album. Just listen to the 2007 remixes that appeared on the Greatest Hit... album, they sound better (sonically) but it just feels wrong

No, no, the remixes sounds way worse, as they had that kind of dry sound that infected some of their other work in the 00's (see: a lot of Octavarium).  There is no punch, not much pop, in those remixes.  I hate when bands put alternate versions of big hits on greatest hits records, and considering Pull Me Under was their obvious biggest hit, to change it like that just felt wrong.

[Cool Chris]

Listening to that Greatest Hit album never once crossed my mind.

[Dedalus]

Listening to that Greatest Hit album never once crossed my mind.

This.

[gzarruk]

IAW drum sound isn't that good, but it's part of the charm of the album. Just listen to the 2007 remixes that appeared on the Greatest Hit... album, they sound better (sonically) but it just feels wrong

No, no, the remixes sounds way worse, as they had that kind of dry sound that infected some of their other work in the 00's (see: a lot of Octavarium).  There is no punch, not much pop, in those remixes.  I hate when bands put alternate versions of big hits on greatest hits records, and considering Pull Me Under was their obvious biggest hit, to change it like that just felt wrong.

They sound like 00's DT basically because they were done by Kevin Shirley, who also mixed most of SFAM, SDOIT, TOT, and a few of their live albums in the 00's (obiously FII too, but that's another era). I think that's the specific sound they wanted for the remixes. Still, like I said in my other post, it just doesn't feel right.
As for the bolded, I completely agree, I just don't like alternate versions of songs I already know

Listening to that Greatest Hit album never once crossed my mind.

This.

I think it's ok for what it is: a compilation album aimed mostly to new(er) fans. However, if you were already a big fan of the band, there's not much stuff to get into. They totally missed the opportunity to write a couple extra songs to include in there as some bands doto help sell compilation albums better, though IIRC, this was released very close to SC, hence why there wasn't new material there.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Greatest Hit was a mistake.

[Volante99]

I thought it was okay- it tried to appeal to both new fans with the hits and included some "rare" stuff for the fans. The band had been around for almost 20 years by that point and hadn't put out a greatest hits compilation and by 2008 it was probably the last time it would have made sense to do so with the changing record industry and dwindling physical sales. Greatest Hits have always been a cash grab so I hope the band made a little dough with their back catalog. I certainly don't think it hurt them.

[IDontNotDoThings]

To elaborate, I'm not opposed to the band making a greatest hits compilation.

My issues with this specific one are:
1) the perplexing song choices (Panic Attack & Metropolis aren't included despite them being some of the band's most popular songs, yet Lifting Shadows & I Walk Beside You are)
2) the inclusion of badly spliced radio edits (when the full songs would've fit within the CD space if they hadn't arbitrarily split it into Dark Side/Light Side)
3) the bad remixes of the I&W tracks

[Setlist Scotty]

I thought it was okay- it tried to appeal to both new fans with the hits and included some "rare" stuff for the fans. The band had been around for almost 20 years by that point and hadn't put out a greatest hits compilation and by 2008 it was probably the last time it would have made sense to do so with the changing record industry and dwindling physical sales. Greatest Hits have always been a cash grab so I hope the band made a little dough with their back catalog. I certainly don't think it hurt them.

Exactly. I can't remember for certain, but being that they were moving to Roadrunner at that time, I think Atlantic was already planning on putting together a compilation of some sort anyway, with or without the band's approval, because they could. So if it was inevitably going to happen, I'd rather have MP involved than not, because he would have had a much better handle on what tracks would most likely appeal to new listeners, as well as to throw in some (relative) rarities to satisfy the diehards.

My issues with this specific one are:
1) the perplexing song choices (Panic Attack & Metropolis aren't included despite them being some of the band's most popular songs, yet Lifting Shadows & I Walk Beside You are)
2) the inclusion of badly spliced radio edits (when the full songs would've fit within the CD space if they hadn't arbitrarily split it into Dark Side/Light Side)
3) the bad remixes of the I&W tracks

Don't forget there was always a method to MP's madness. To go into detail:
1) I believe MP regretted not including PA in hindsight - can't remember, but I believe PA appeared in Rock Band after GH+21 was released, and so why it wasn't included. Metropolis probably wasn't included because in general a compilation is to appeal to people who are new to the band, and considering that PMU, TtT and AD were all singles from IaW, it make sense they would be included and Metropolis not. It could be argued that LtL could have been selected too, since it's a fan favorite.
2) This was done in part to provide something "new" to the established fan base. And since MP opted to keep the 2 sides of the band separate, it also helped with him being able to include more tracks.
3) You and many others may not like them, but that's not necessarily true for everyone. Obviously, a big part of this was because MP hated the triggered drums that Prater used. But instead of just swapping the drums, he decided to have the full tracks remixed so as to (once again) give the fans something new rather than the same old, same old.

[Cool Chris]

I cannot say for certain, I'd have to do some exploring in to various "Greatest Hits" sets, but I feel those that try to appeal to both the hardcore fan base and the potential new fan will actually fail at greatly pleasing either.

[Setlist Scotty]

I cannot say for certain, I'd have to do some exploring in to various "Greatest Hits" sets, but I feel those that try to appeal to both the hardcore fan base and the potential new fan will actually fail at greatly pleasing either.

Given the kind of audience DT attracts, a compilation is gonna fail to gain much of a new audience for the band anyway. So the best thing that they could do is include some "exclusive" content to make it worthwhile for the established fan base to want to pick it up.

[ReaPsTA]

Images and Words is magic music and the production helps sell that

[Enigmachine]

I wonder, did the compilation even really have any significant success for the band? I tend to concur with Setlist Scotty in that, rather than what it could be for many other bands, a compilation is actually going to be a pretty niche thing rather than a pull for people unfamiliar with them. I can't imagine it's aged well either, as modern streaming platforms basically make compilations like this mostly obsolete. The edits are pretty interesting though, those sorts of rarities are something they probably should've gone after more with maybe things like throwing on the stuff from Cleaning Out the Closet.

I also have to admit that my thoughts on I&W's production choices really depend on what kind of mindset I take towards it. If I see it as a charming nostalgic product of a time gone by, a lot of things I may have seen as flaws suddenly fit the aesthetic. That kind of polished, dreamy 80s / early 90s atmosphere it creates does give it a very unique quality in the band's discography and perhaps there's an argument to be made that more natural drum processing would detract from that, in a way. I'm saying this because in spite of what I said earlier, there's definitely something that keeps me coming back for more.

[KevShmev]

Listening to that Greatest Hit album never once crossed my mind.

I didn't hear until a while after it was released.  I never bought it, a friend had downloaded it and sent it to me, IIRC.  If not, I doubt I would have ever heard it until all of the songs made it on to YT. 

[hefdaddy42]

I'm not against the Greatest Hit compilation in general, but although the triggered snares on Images & Words aren't perfect, they are much better than what appears on the remixed versions.

[pg1067]

Listening to that Greatest Hit album never once crossed my mind.

I'd never in a million years have bought it, but I did buy/download the remixed versions of PMU and TTT.  I heard a 30-second snippet of PMU and liked that the bass was more audible.  I can't notice much of a difference otherwise, and I never noticed much difference between the album and remixed versions of TTT.  I'm not a big fan of Another Day, so I didn't bother with that one.  Edited versions of other songs held no appeal for me.

I wonder, did the compilation even really have any significant success for the band?

I doubt it.  According to Wikipedia, it hit #122 on the Billboard 200, #113 on the UK albums chart, #28 in Japan, and #27 in Italy.

[HOF]

To elaborate, I'm not opposed to the band making a greatest hits compilation.

My issues with this specific one are:
1) the perplexing song choices (Panic Attack & Metropolis aren't included despite them being some of the band's most popular songs, yet Lifting Shadows & I Walk Beside You are)
2) the inclusion of badly spliced radio edits (when the full songs would've fit within the CD space if they hadn't arbitrarily split it into Dark Side/Light Side)
3) the bad remixes of the I&W tracks

Pannick Attack is a popular DT song? Had no idea (I've always hated it). Lifting Shadows is a top 10 DT song for me, and I Walk Beside You is the last DT song I really like.

I bought this recently and actually enjoyed a lot of the radio edits. Home especially. The I&W remixes do not sound all that great though (it's not just the drum sound either, they lack energy altogether and sound kind of hollow).

[TheCountOfNYC]

To elaborate, I'm not opposed to the band making a greatest hits compilation.

My issues with this specific one are:
1) the perplexing song choices (Panic Attack & Metropolis aren't included despite them being some of the band's most popular songs, yet Lifting Shadows & I Walk Beside You are)
2) the inclusion of badly spliced radio edits (when the full songs would've fit within the CD space if they hadn't arbitrarily split it into Dark Side/Light Side)
3) the bad remixes of the I&W tracks

Panic Attack is a popular DT song?

Panic Attack was in Rock Band 2 back when rhythm games were at the peak of their popularity. The song introduced a lot of people to Dream Theater, including me.

[TM172003]

Pannick Attack is a popular DT song?

Yes, it's DT's second most popular song on Spotify with 23m listens.

[HOF]

To elaborate, I'm not opposed to the band making a greatest hits compilation.

My issues with this specific one are:
1) the perplexing song choices (Panic Attack & Metropolis aren't included despite them being some of the band's most popular songs, yet Lifting Shadows & I Walk Beside You are)
2) the inclusion of badly spliced radio edits (when the full songs would've fit within the CD space if they hadn't arbitrarily split it into Dark Side/Light Side)
3) the bad remixes of the I&W tracks

Panic Attack is a popular DT song?

Panic Attack was in Rock Band 2 back when rhythm games were at the peak of their popularity. The song introduced a lot of people to Dream Theater, including me.

Huh. But it looks like Rock Band 2 was released several months after Greatest Hit, so I guess they couldn't have known at that point.

Pannick Attack is a popular DT song?

Yes, it's DT's second most popular song on Spotify with 23m listens.

Amazing! Well I guess my controversial DT opinion is that it's an ear-bleed inducing mess ripping off an even more ear-bleed inducing band (Muse)! 😜