Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 1011498 times)

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10430 on: December 09, 2020, 11:20:55 AM »
Raise The Knife is the worst song from the entire FII sessions imo...the vocal melody is beyond bland. Speak To Me is probably my favorite from the entire FII session and I wish it would’ve made its way onto the album. I know a lot of people rank the album pretty low, but it’s the most creative period in the bands history and the diversity in sound between songs is incredible.

Only if you don't count You Not Me, Burning My Soul and Lines In The Sand.  :)


(I'm just kidding with you; it's all taste.)

Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10431 on: December 09, 2020, 11:28:03 AM »
  DT has plenty of those that I love, but the COTC songs didn't make it on an official release for a good reason.

Hah! I've said the same thing, but they definitely made a mistake leaving Raise The Knife off.

Where Are You Now sounds like some awful Tate-ryche song.

MP's description of Where Are You Now is spot on. It is a song where you can tell, they didn't know where to take the song.

I think it's an excellent song, but it does need a bit of reworking on some parts. The parts I do like are the keyboard solo and the guitar solo reprise of that melody, and the key and chord progressions as well. The tone, style, and feel each of the guys have all fit into that key and progression, it's just it meanders and floats trying to decide which way to go. The lyrics are fitting for that reason. Describing the song itself, as it peers through different avenues.



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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10432 on: December 09, 2020, 11:57:20 AM »
Regarding Raise The Knife...

It's excellent live, and that is shown in Score.

If it were to have been on the album. I would've gotten rid of Burning My Soul, and Hell's Kitchen. Replaced those with Raise The Knife, as the ending to Raise The Knife can go into Lines In The Sand.

I'd actually like the album a lot if it had this tracklisting

1. Cover My Eyes (I wanted New Millenium to also stay, but I wanted Cover My Eyes to be included, and it's also not a bad opener with the intro being started by guitar.)
2. Where Are You Now? (As I stated, if they were to clean this song a bit more, It's pretty good as it is, there is just one section I feel they could trim off, 4:58-4:50 is that section, well they could work that out a bit more, but other than it's a good 2nd song. With the Drums coming in after the ending of Cover My Eyes vocal outro "Have I Lost My Mind")
3. Peruvian Skies
4. Hollow Years (This one includes the pre-chorus before the Chorus and the extended Live Solo)
5. Raise The Knife
6. Lines In The Sand (This one includes the demo verse)
7. Take Away My Pain (The Once In A LIvetime version, I like that blend of the studio and the demo)
8. Hell's Kitchen (I didn't want to leave this one out, as it's a beautiful instrumental, so Just Let Me Breathe and Anna Lee had to go)
9. Trial of Tears

I made playlist and will listen to it later to see how well it flows. But, I checked out some transitions and they work great. These are all songs I like and the ones I think would work well as the album, Falling Into Infinity.
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10433 on: December 09, 2020, 12:27:09 PM »
Yeah, I agree that it isn't really "controversial."  As you say, a lot of folks here like those songs, myself included.  But putting it in a "top 5" ranked against DT's studio albums is definitely a minority opinion.  That's a pretty strong take. 

But I also think the opinion that they were left off the album "for a reason," and the obvious implication that they are "inferior" to all songs that made the cut is a bit too strong and assumes some things that may or may not actually be true.  Getting into obviously subjective territory here, but I think this would probably be close to the consensus if you could ask a lot of people:  while perhaps none of those songs feel quite as strong as the ones that have come to be "classics," a good many of them are at least as strong as the less-liked songs from the album, and a lot of people would probably feel that a number of them are right up there with the "middle-of-the-road" FII album tracks as well.  I know that would hold true for me.  I don't reach for those songs often.  But when I do, I enjoy them.  And I have to say, I enjoy most of them more than I enjoy some of the songs that made the album.  The thing is, if you could throw all the songs from that era into a pot and ask 100 fans to pick whichever ones they liked best to come up with a single album, you would probably get a ton of variation.  And if I had to guess, I would think that most versions would  be liked about as much as the album we got, give or take a small margin.  I know that for me, if I could sub out a few of the album tracks for a few of the extras that didn't make it, FII would be a "better" album, as far as I'm concerned. 

At the end of the day, I think it's cool that the fans even got access to these songs.  DT doesn't really have a long list of singles with b-sides.  But these songs are kind of the equivalent.  And seen as such, I think they easily stand up as well as any band's non-album rarities, which is to say that there are some that don't feel album quality, some that feel like they could easily have made the cut if the decision was made on a different day, and the rare gem or two that have become somewhat cult-favorites.  And, again, it's pretty cool that we even have these.

At the end of the day, I'm definitely in the minority among DTF dwellers when it comes to the FII rejects.  I also think FII is a bottom-four DT album.  For my money, as bland as I think it is, I think RTK is the best of the batch, but even at that, I think it's better than only New Millennium (a bottom 5 DT song for me -- and when I say that, I'm only considering actual album tracks) and maybe Peruvian Skies and Just Let Me Breathe.  Comparing the rest of the rejects to New Millennium isn't something I really care to do, but that's the level they're on.

As far as why those songs got left off, this is the best, reliable information I know of on the subject:  "Rather than looking at which we thought were the weakest, we went for what we knew were the strongest.  We knew Lines in the Sand, Trial of Tears, New Millennium, Peruvian Skies and Just Let Me Breathe were the strongest pieces that had to make the record.  Initially, the record was only going to have 9 tracks - originally Anna Lee and You Not Me weren't going to be on the record.  So those two tracks were going to be leftovers, and then it turned out with all the chopping that Kevin Shirley was doing to the songs, we had a little more room to fit them.  So we ended up squeezing those in - those were the two that were backup choices.  It was hard - I think Speak to Me is a strong song, and The Way It Used to Be has some really cool parts.  And obviously it killed us not to include Metropolis pt.2, but it worked out since we expanded it into what became Scenes From a Memory."  https://mikeportnoy.com/aboutmike/faq/answers/31.aspx

If, in fact, the consensus among the band was that NM, PS and JLMB "were the strongest pieces," then I can only disagree, but I find it interesting all of MP's lyrics are on this list, so I have some doubt that this was a full band consensus.  Now...this doesn't tell us why they went with, e.g., Take Away My Pain or Hollow Years instead of, e.g., Speak to Me.  However, the comment about AL and YNM being the "backup choices" implies that they thought those songs (along with the other nine songs that make the album) were stronger/better (or whatever word you like) than RTK, WAYN, TWIUTB, CME and STM (I don't know if they gave any real consideration to including DLPM and TLF on FII -- I'm guessing they didn't).  For example, the could have left off AL and YNM (combined length of 10:49) in favor of the 11:35 RTK.  Did they do that because they viewed AL and YNM better/stronger than RTK (and note that they could be "better" because they were more commercial and wanted that element).  Bottom line, whatever the reasons are, there were reasons why the band members thought the songs that made the album should make it over the songs that didn't.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 12:36:32 PM by pg1067 »
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Offline pg1067

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Offline DTA

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10435 on: December 09, 2020, 02:02:11 PM »
Raise The Knife is the worst song from the entire FII sessions imo...the vocal melody is beyond bland. Speak To Me is probably my favorite from the entire FII session and I wish it would’ve made its way onto the album. I know a lot of people rank the album pretty low, but it’s the most creative period in the bands history and the diversity in sound between songs is incredible.

Only if you don't count You Not Me, Burning My Soul and Lines In The Sand.  :)


(I'm just kidding with you; it's all taste.)

Oof, another LITS-denier..  :lol

It's just one of the most stunning tracks they've ever made. Even my girlfriend who thinks DT is the goofiest shit ever appreciates it. What don't you like about it?

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10436 on: December 09, 2020, 02:46:09 PM »
Here is something controversial for you to chew on!

I was listening to "Cleaning Out the Closet" in my car yesterday.
I would love to hear Dream Theater make more songs like Don´t Look Past Me,  Where Are you Know, The way it used to be, Speak To me etc.
The almost "poppy" sound and more "simpler" mainstream-radio-friendly songs sound so refreshing after listening to mostly heavier songs from DT.

I have to say that Cleaning out the closet is pretty much my top 5 DT albums (even though, not a official studio recording)

What do you guys think?

I prefer the non-metal side of DT to the metal side (in fact I don’t care much for the heavier metal side much at all beyond Awake). Even back when I was somewhat into metal, I always found myself drawn mostly to songs like Another Day, Surrounded, The Silent Man, Lifting Shadows, Space Dye Vest, Hollow Years, Hell’s Kitchen, Take Away My Pain, Speak to Me, even Anna Lee. Give me those and some of the proggier heavy songs like Learning to Live, 6:00, Innocence Faded, Scarred, Lines in the Sand, Trial of Tears. That’s the good stuff.

Offline adastra

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10437 on: December 09, 2020, 08:53:18 PM »
I prefer the non-metal side of DT to the metal side (in fact I don’t care much for the heavier metal side much at all beyond Awake). Even back when I was somewhat into metal, I always found myself drawn mostly to songs like Another Day, Surrounded, The Silent Man, Lifting Shadows, Space Dye Vest, Hollow Years, Hell’s Kitchen, Take Away My Pain, Speak to Me, even Anna Lee. Give me those and some of the proggier heavy songs like Learning to Live, 6:00, Innocence Faded, Scarred, Lines in the Sand, Trial of Tears. That’s the good stuff.

I like you, man!  ;D

I remember when my brother introduced me to Dream Theater in the year 2000. It was with SFAM.  I listened it for like a year before getting more Dream Theater. I got Falling Into Infinity and downloaded Once in A Livetime Outtakes (1998)  from Kazaa.
I Was totally shocked with how "soft" or "non-metal" the songs were.
It took me some time to get to appreciate the softer side more.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10438 on: December 10, 2020, 06:51:55 AM »
Raise The Knife is the worst song from the entire FII sessions imo...the vocal melody is beyond bland. Speak To Me is probably my favorite from the entire FII session and I wish it would’ve made its way onto the album. I know a lot of people rank the album pretty low, but it’s the most creative period in the bands history and the diversity in sound between songs is incredible.

Only if you don't count You Not Me, Burning My Soul and Lines In The Sand.  :)


(I'm just kidding with you; it's all taste.)

Oof, another LITS-denier..  :lol

It's just one of the most stunning tracks they've ever made. Even my girlfriend who thinks DT is the goofiest shit ever appreciates it. What don't you like about it?

The song itself is pretty good.  Doug Pinnick slaughtering chickens ruins the entire piece for me.

Offline Dream Team

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10439 on: December 10, 2020, 07:41:42 AM »
OK all you singers out there, what is the deal with JLB putting the "W" sound in front of all his vowels? "Wi'm alive again, darkness far behind me" or "Wopen up, wopen up". Seriously WTH? What faulty technique is he using?

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10440 on: December 10, 2020, 07:43:00 AM »
OK all you singers out there, what is the deal with JLB putting the "W" sound in front of all his vowels? "Wi'm alive again, darkness far behind me" or "Wopen up, wopen up". Seriously WTH? What faulty technique is he using?

Being Canadian. ;-)

Offline Dream Team

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10441 on: December 10, 2020, 09:23:29 AM »
Uh no that's not it.

Offline hunnus2000

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10442 on: December 10, 2020, 10:48:03 AM »
I got one - Raise the Knife is not that good of a song and You Not Me is better. Just sayin........

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10443 on: December 10, 2020, 10:52:17 AM »
Uh no that's not it.

Serious answer (as someone who took one vocal class and sang in choir in college), there is a technique called singing “into the mask” where you try to place your voice in front of your face. I recall being taught to create resonance in the lips and nose area. One exercise was to purse your lips and hum/blow to make them vibrate so you could I guess feel the pitch in that area.

When you make the W sound your lips contract and your voice places kind of forward as opposed to in the back of your throat (try it!). I’m guessing here, but maybe that’s the reason. It sort of projects the vowel sound forward “into the mask.”

Offline TheLordOfTheStrings

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10444 on: December 10, 2020, 01:30:19 PM »
Not exactly a controversial opinion but the dudes need to stop dying their hair. Just embrace the grey. It's cool, it's classy.
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Online TAC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10445 on: December 10, 2020, 01:32:32 PM »
Not exactly a controversial opinion but the dudes need to stop dying their hair. Just embrace the grey. It's cool, it's classy.

I agree. It kind of looks ridiculous at this point.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
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Offline RodrigoAltaf

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10446 on: December 10, 2020, 02:09:34 PM »
Uh no that's not it.

Serious answer (as someone who took one vocal class and sang in choir in college), there is a technique called singing “into the mask” where you try to place your voice in front of your face. I recall being taught to create resonance in the lips and nose area. One exercise was to purse your lips and hum/blow to make them vibrate so you could I guess feel the pitch in that area.

When you make the W sound your lips contract and your voice places kind of forward as opposed to in the back of your throat (try it!). I’m guessing here, but maybe that’s the reason. It sort of projects the vowel sound forward “into the mask.”

Thank you for clarifying that!!! I always felt it had something to do with that.

Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10447 on: December 10, 2020, 02:28:18 PM »
Not exactly a controversial opinion but the dudes need to stop dying their hair. Just embrace the grey. It's cool, it's classy.

I agree. It kind of looks ridiculous at this point.
Counterpoint: it's not like they're going to wake up tomorrow with a full head of gray hair, it takes a loooong time to grow out the dye and maybe they're not that comfortable with having a horizontal Cruella do for the next three or four years  :angel:

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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10448 on: December 10, 2020, 03:01:27 PM »
Can you believe I never thought of that?  :lol silly me...

I never thought that once you dye your hair you're "stuck" with it or with a months, if not years, long growth. I guess it could be worked around by dying the hair of the natural color to smooth over the transition.
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Offline geeeemo

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10449 on: December 10, 2020, 03:01:51 PM »
James could just go lighter and lighter.  He used to have lighter hair, or was that dyed..  :-\

Mangini looks natural, and I haven't seen roots yet.  JP had brown hair when it was natural. He should go with that for a while. The little bit in his beard is ok.

I am a chick. I look at how they look. I dye my hair.  Gray on men isn't better when they have long hair. 

(imo, their best look was during the BTFW record)

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10450 on: December 10, 2020, 03:06:12 PM »
I always liked their Octavarium look, the perfect balance between being badass rockers, and adult men going well into their 40s.

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Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10451 on: December 10, 2020, 03:07:26 PM »
If they go natural grey, their marketability plummets.

It sucks but it's the truth.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10452 on: December 10, 2020, 03:10:11 PM »
They should all cut their hair and let it go gray. Except Myung who doesn’t age anyway.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10453 on: December 10, 2020, 03:12:10 PM »
I always liked their Octavarium look, the perfect balance between being badass rockers, and adult men going well into their 40s.



One of the things I dislike about metal is that you have to have a certain faux tough “look.” DT fell into this once they got signed by Roadrunner.

Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10454 on: December 10, 2020, 04:11:28 PM »
James could just go lighter and lighter.  He used to have lighter hair, or was that dyed..  :-\

Mangini looks natural, and I haven't seen roots yet.  JP had brown hair when it was natural. He should go with that for a while. The little bit in his beard is ok.

I am a chick. I look at how they look. I dye my hair.  Gray on men isn't better when they have long hair. 

(imo, their best look was during the BTFW record)
James has kind of a midtone brown naturally, but I guess he started dyeing it way back in the 90's. I honestly don't know why both he and JP went for the blue-black, it's a nightmare to get out of. Especially James with all those years of hair dye experience :lol JP probably fell into the classic mistake of picking by the color on the box, instead of reading how the level actually turns out. Sometimes you want dark brown and get ink black.

One of the things I dislike about metal is that you have to have a certain faux tough “look.” DT fell into this once they got signed by Roadrunner.
You don't *have to*, plenty of bands who look different. We have to assume that at this point, this is just how they want to look. I've just grown tired of seeing them in printed T-shirts, but I don't mind the jewelery and tattoos and all the rest, though sometimes those jeans are even more garish than the tees :lol
« Last Edit: December 10, 2020, 04:26:27 PM by MoraWintersoul »

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10455 on: December 10, 2020, 09:23:51 PM »

You don't *have to*, plenty of bands who look different. We have to assume that at this point, this is just how they want to look. I've just grown tired of seeing them in printed T-shirts, but I don't mind the jewelery and tattoos and all the rest, though sometimes those jeans are even more garish than the tees :lol

I was actually going to write this.  The hair is the least of the problem. I thought they had a cool look around the Octavarium years, especially Mike (I think he's a very handsome man in that shot).   Now you look at the promo pictures and they look like any of 100 bands, with the black tees with the silver design, the black jeans and the boots.  It's like a uniform at this point.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10456 on: December 10, 2020, 10:07:16 PM »
Promo pics has never been their strong suit. It's like they took a couple before they figured out how they all wanted to stand comfortably, and the photog said "eh, that's good enough, I'm done here."
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Offline PetFish

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10457 on: December 10, 2020, 10:43:29 PM »
Not exactly a controversial opinion but the dudes need to stop dying their hair. Just embrace the grey. It's cool, it's classy.

"Two minutes for looking so good."

Offline nobloodyname

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10458 on: December 10, 2020, 11:55:01 PM »
The problem for us men with dyeing hair is that as you get older is it usually doesn't match your ageing skin tone, and so creates an unnatural look, especially with the colours James and John are using. If affects women, too, although generally to a lesser extent which means they can get away with it for much longer.

Kirk Hammett's got it worked out.

Also: always worth being careful with the straighteners. John looked like his hair had been ironed to within an inch of its life a couple of years ago :lol (I've been there myself... it's easy to get carried away :biggrin: )
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Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10459 on: December 11, 2020, 03:43:36 AM »
Also: always worth being careful with the straighteners. John looked like his hair had been ironed to within an inch of its life a couple of years ago :lol (I've been there myself... it's easy to get carried away :biggrin: )
I always wondered why metal dudes don't just ask their wives for style tips, but maybe he did and Mrs. 'trucci said "well whenever I don't have the time to get a blowout at the hairdresser's, I just go through it with a straightener" and he was like, straightener, got it, that will work for me too. And then did it every day on tour for a while :rollin

For me, the Octavarium look was literally just "we rolled out of bed to pick up some groceries and stopped by the photoshoot", but I'm guessing that's because mid 2000's cuts and textiles were peak casual. I tend to like most of their promo pics since 2011 because I like interesting leather jackets and they have a bunch. I just... don't get the Ed Hardy looking tees with the "ROCK SKULL FLAME BIKE" on them on stage. They could always wear band shirts of bands they love if they don't want a plain black, that's cool. Idk why plain black isn't an option either, John Myung looks great.

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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10460 on: December 11, 2020, 03:49:02 AM »
I also wonder how much the looks are really a factor... I mean, DT isn't exactly a boy band, the kind of people that listen to 11 minutes long songs are not exactly looking for a good "tough kickass" image to begin with.

James Hetfield has short hair, Lars is pratically bald, Kirk Hammet is grey, I don't see their popularity waning or new kids refusing to listening to them because "they're old". And image is definitively more important for Metallica than Dream Theater.
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Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10461 on: December 11, 2020, 03:57:07 AM »
It's not that important. It was important in the 90's, back then you could get people booing you for "not looking metal", happened to Metallica when they cut their hair. Now it really doesn't matter, except to us who look at them a lot and want them to look more interesting :rollin

Actually, you know what. You know where the illusion falls apart? They all have some personality to their stage looks, starting from JP and the beard, JLB's rings and bracelets, MM's jersey and JMX's standard uniform. EXCEPT for JR, who we know isn't a metal guy at all and is quite zany and cooky, but he wears the same freaking Ed Hardy shirt as the rest of them.

Petition for Jordan to show up in a purple tunic and sandals to go with his wizard hat next time.

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Offline nobloodyname

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10462 on: December 11, 2020, 04:11:34 AM »
Also: always worth being careful with the straighteners. John looked like his hair had been ironed to within an inch of its life a couple of years ago :lol (I've been there myself... it's easy to get carried away :biggrin: )
I always wondered why metal dudes don't just ask their wives for style tips, but maybe he did and Mrs. 'trucci said "well whenever I don't have the time to get a blowout at the hairdresser's, I just go through it with a straightener" and he was like, straightener, got it, that will work for me too. And then did it every day on tour for a while :rollin


Laughed out loud, that's brilliant :lol
Paul
Gamer, rocker, humanist, womble
Leicestershire, UK
Getting right out of my comfort zone: www.youtube.com/@paulplayspoorly Go on, you can do it, too! (24/3/2024: Now playing on Paul Plays Poorly!, The Answer Lies Within by Dream Theater)

Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10463 on: December 11, 2020, 06:23:13 AM »
I thought DT looked their coolest on the Chaos on Motion/Progressive Nation tour. 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2020, 07:48:44 AM by Architeuthis »
You can do a lot in a lifetime if you don't burn out too fast, you can make the most of the distance, first you need endurance first you've got to last....... NP

Offline Stadler

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10464 on: December 11, 2020, 06:47:06 AM »
It's not that important. It was important in the 90's, back then you could get people booing you for "not looking metal", happened to Metallica when they cut their hair. Now it really doesn't matter, except to us who look at them a lot and want them to look more interesting :rollin

Actually, you know what. You know where the illusion falls apart? They all have some personality to their stage looks, starting from JP and the beard, JLB's rings and bracelets, MM's jersey and JMX's standard uniform. EXCEPT for JR, who we know isn't a metal guy at all and is quite zany and cooky, but he wears the same freaking Ed Hardy shirt as the rest of them.

Petition for Jordan to show up in a purple tunic and sandals to go with his wizard hat next time.

HAHA, you're on fire!   :)