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Your Controversial Opinions on DT

Started by Lucidity, December 17, 2012, 08:28:25 PM

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Dedalus

Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 08, 2020, 10:38:48 AM
He wanted people to listen to The Sound of Silence.  I prefer the original version by Simon & Garfunkel, and the cover version by Disturbed myself.  :rollin

Oh, how I hate this cover.  :lol

hefdaddy42

Quote from: Dedalus on October 08, 2020, 10:55:48 AM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 08, 2020, 10:38:48 AM
He wanted people to listen to The Sound of Silence.  I prefer the original version by Simon & Garfunkel, and the cover version by Disturbed myself.  :rollin

Oh, how I hate this cover.  :lol
Me too.  I know a lot of people like it, but I can't stand it.

Give me John Cage, any day.

pg1067

Quote from: Dedalus on October 08, 2020, 10:29:02 AM
Another factor that makes me like the idea (besides the teasing) is that for years I thought it was something about silence, but it is not. It's about listening. If people tried to listen to the piece and think about it, perhaps they discover interesting things. But at this point I believe that Cage's purpose has failed.

There is no "piece" that can be listened to.


Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 08, 2020, 10:38:48 AM
I prefer the original version by Simon & Garfunkel, and the cover version by Disturbed myself.  :rollin

Yes and yes!

Dedalus

Quote from: pg1067 on October 08, 2020, 12:07:42 PM
Quote from: Dedalus on October 08, 2020, 10:29:02 AM
Another factor that makes me like the idea (besides the teasing) is that for years I thought it was something about silence, but it is not. It's about listening. If people tried to listen to the piece and think about it, perhaps they discover interesting things. But at this point I believe that Cage's purpose has failed.

There is no "piece" that can be listened to.


But of course there is.

hefdaddy42

Quote from: pg1067 on October 08, 2020, 12:07:42 PM
Quote from: Dedalus on October 08, 2020, 10:29:02 AM
Another factor that makes me like the idea (besides the teasing) is that for years I thought it was something about silence, but it is not. It's about listening. If people tried to listen to the piece and think about it, perhaps they discover interesting things. But at this point I believe that Cage's purpose has failed.

There is no "piece" that can be listened to.
That's just crazy talk.

Dublagent66

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 08, 2020, 03:26:51 PM
Quote from: pg1067 on October 08, 2020, 12:07:42 PM
Quote from: Dedalus on October 08, 2020, 10:29:02 AM
Another factor that makes me like the idea (besides the teasing) is that for years I thought it was something about silence, but it is not. It's about listening. If people tried to listen to the piece and think about it, perhaps they discover interesting things. But at this point I believe that Cage's purpose has failed.

There is no "piece" that can be listened to.
That's just crazy talk.

Oh, it's a piece alright.  A piece of what is entirely subjective just like any other listening experience.  I mean, someone in the audience could've farted for Christ's sake. :lol However, not sure how Cage can be given credit.  It's not his composition.  I'd rather listen to those performing what he did compose.  Anyone can sit somewhere without any performers and take in the sounds of ambient nature.

hefdaddy42

But it's not just ambient nature.  It's not outside.  It's in a performance hall, a theater, a venue, together with the rest of the audience, and performer(s).  It's not just any old silence.  It's communal silence.

It's like a pause or a rest in any other piece - just longer.

Dublagent66

Then it shouldn't be any different than when they take a minute of silence at sports venues in honor of someone who's passed away or any other minute of silence for that matter.  That's communal silence too.  It's not like this Cage guy invented it.  It isn't something that's composed.  It just is what it is.  I don't see what all the hype is about.

hefdaddy42

Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 09, 2020, 02:10:13 PM
Then it shouldn't be any different than when they take a minute of silence at sports venues in honor of someone who's passed away or any other minute of silence for that matter.  That's communal silence too.  It's not like this Cage guy invented it.  It isn't something that's composed.  It just is what it is.  I don't see what all the hype is about.
No, that's different, because no one is LISTENING to that.  That's a moment of silence for respect, not something to be listened to.

I mean, I get that you don't like the idea, or want to devalue it, but it's a legit piece of art.  Like any other piece of art, not everyone is going to appreciate it.  But that doesn't mean there's nothing to it.

pg1067

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 09, 2020, 03:58:33 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 09, 2020, 02:10:13 PM
Then it shouldn't be any different than when they take a minute of silence at sports venues in honor of someone who's passed away or any other minute of silence for that matter.  That's communal silence too.  It's not like this Cage guy invented it.  It isn't something that's composed.  It just is what it is.  I don't see what all the hype is about.
No, that's different, because no one is LISTENING to that.  That's a moment of silence for respect, not something to be listened to.

I mean, I get that you don't like the idea, or want to devalue it, but it's a legit piece of art.  Like any other piece of art, not everyone is going to appreciate it.  But that doesn't mean there's nothing to it.

There is, quite literally, nothing to it!

It's the Emperor's New Clothes.

Dedalus

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 09, 2020, 03:58:33 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 09, 2020, 02:10:13 PM
Then it shouldn't be any different than when they take a minute of silence at sports venues in honor of someone who's passed away or any other minute of silence for that matter.  That's communal silence too.  It's not like this Cage guy invented it.  It isn't something that's composed.  It just is what it is.  I don't see what all the hype is about.
No, that's different, because no one is LISTENING to that.  That's a moment of silence for respect, not something to be listened to.

I mean, I get that you don't like the idea, or want to devalue it, but it's a legit piece of art.  Like any other piece of art, not everyone is going to appreciate it.  But that doesn't mean there's nothing to it.

Exactly. People don't have to like it. They may think it is a stupid idea for stupid people. But it is just an opinion, not a big deal.

John Cage came up with the idea of ​​a "musical" piece (as it was inserted in a musical environment) without sound, in three movements, for an audience more used to the etiquette of classical music. In other words, he knew that people would be silent when the piece was performed. They would hear silence, but no, they would not hear any silence, because there is no silence for living human beings (unless they are totally deaf). People may would experience this, if they were there (and want to).

He is the author of this idea and no one can say otherwise. Even if they want to.

Silent people in a sports venue were not invited to try to hear anything or experience anything. They are not focused on something that was thought of as an artistic experience. They just remain silent in honor of someone they probably don't even care about.

SeRoX

I Walk Beside You should turn the set list. Such a uplifting song.

here its last live version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLNysgx98Gc&ab_channel=AmadeusValle

gzarruk

Quote from: SeRoX on October 10, 2020, 09:14:13 PM
I Walk Beside You should turn the set list. Such a uplifting song.

here its last live version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLNysgx98Gc&ab_channel=AmadeusValle

I thought he wasn't going to nail it, but he did quite good! I still think playing it live for the whole tour could be a bit too much for his voice, but they could give it a shot. Mangini has been asking to play that one for a while (he's said in a couple interviews).

MirrorMask

Always nice to hear great singers singing with their bare naked voice, no music beneath, no effects, just their "instrument" and nothing else  :hat

darkshade

DT12 track order is all wrong. I just realized I can tolerate the entire album if the track order is like this.

False Awakening Suite
The Enemy Inside
Enigma Machine
Behind the Veil
The Bigger Picture
The Looking Glass
Along for the Ride
Surrender to Reason
Illumination Theory

Much better flow this way. Still a bottom 3 tier DT album, still has the hot mastering, still has the production, I would cut some songs off for a tighter album, but at least I can stand listening to this one like I can ADTOE and DoT.

425

Here's a controversial opinion that's come to mind today:

For a long time, I never bothered to get Once in a Livetime because of its bad reputation. I did finally pick it up recently, and I have to say that I think it's a pretty good release. James is spotty at times, but I think the only song that actually sounds bad due to the vocal performance is Voices. There are other songs where he sounds good. The rest of the band is on fire, and there is a lot of good stuff on this release, including some songs that don't really get enough live attention, like Lines in the Sand, Take Away My Pain, Caught in a Web and Peruvian Skies.

It's certainly not their strongest live release, but I don't think it's the travesty it's often made out to be. I think it generally stands up next to the other Portnoy-era live albums, a few strange editing moments or weak vocal parts notwithstanding.

Would love to see a 3CD re-release with the full show (or at least everything but the covers if that's legally problematic), and perhaps some better repair-work on Voices, though I doubt we'll ever see that happen. Looking at setlist.fm, it seems we're missing:
Burning My Soul
Under a Glass Moon
The Way It Used to Be
Anna Lee
Speak to Me
Hey You
Goodbye Yellow Brick Road
Cover My Eyes
and maybe the rest of Scarred, which feels oddly edited here?

geeeemo

Quote from: 425 on October 11, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Here's a controversial opinion that's come to mind today:

For a long time, I never bothered to get Once in a Livetime because of its bad reputation. I did finally pick it up recently, and I have to say that I think it's a pretty good release. James is spotty at times, but I think the only song that actually sounds bad due to the vocal performance is Voices. There are other songs where he sounds good. The rest of the band is on fire, and there is a lot of good stuff on this release, including some songs that don't really get enough live attention, like Lines in the Sand, Take Away My Pain, Caught in a Web and Peruvian Skies.

It's certainly not their strongest live release, but I don't think it's the travesty it's often made out to be. I think it generally stands up next to the other Portnoy-era live albums, a few strange editing moments or weak vocal parts notwithstanding.

Would love to see a 3CD re-release with the full show (or at least everything but the covers if that's legally problematic), and perhaps some better repair-work on Voices, though I doubt we'll ever see that happen. Looking at setlist.fm, it seems we're missing:
Burning My Soul
Under a Glass Moon
The Way It Used to Be
Anna Lee
Speak to Me
Hey You
Goodbye Yellow Brick Road
Cover My Eyes
and maybe the rest of Scarred, which feels oddly edited here?

I really enjoy this one! Yes to the couple of cracks by James, but he still sounds really good and there are some great versions of said songs.

Cool Chris

I missed out on this release in real time because of life issues and a general lack of interest in all things music. Owning the 5 Years DVD later on wasn't enough to inspire to buy it, and the couple times I streamed it to check it didn't impress me enough to get it. I will give it another stream this week for a re-eval.

IgnotusPerIgnotium

Once in a Livetime has a special place in my heart..I was a teenager and just discovered DT. I was obsessed with this live, so much that I taped it and took it with me when the whole school went to a 5 days road trip. To me their performance at Bataclan was simply amazing. Although I had a love and hate opinion of DS at that time, the band was on fire as the friend above mentioned. I mean the energy just poured out from everyone, especially MP, JP (awesome guitar tone btw) and DS with his wild leads..Also I loved the little improvisations and cover song snippets, like Enter Sandman, Carry on you Wayward son and other! I'd love to see them release the whole concert of that night one day..although I doubt anyone cares at this point in time..

MoraWintersoul

Quote from: 425 on October 11, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
and maybe the rest of Scarred, which feels oddly edited here?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's just how they used to play Scarred.

pg1067

Quote from: 425 on October 11, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Here's a controversial opinion that's come to mind today:

For a long time, I never bothered to get Once in a Livetime because of its bad reputation. . . .

I bought OIAL when it was released and remember not liking it, and I doubt I've listened to it more than once or twice since the turn of the century.  The worst thing about it is that it's from the tour for one of DT's worst albums.  The way they broke up ACOS didn't work well on CD, and neither do individual instrument solos.  Plus they truncated LTL, which had not had an official live release at that time.  And for the most part, the missing songs would have made it worse.  The 5YIAL video not good either (although the commentary track on the DVD is worth listening to).

IgnotusPerIgnotium

Quote from: MoraWintersoul on October 12, 2020, 09:07:55 AM
Quote from: 425 on October 11, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
and maybe the rest of Scarred, which feels oddly edited here?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's just how they used to play Scarred.
Yeah that's the way the played it, they skipped the solos and made a little instrumental transition to the Darkest of Winters.

Max Kuehnau

Quote from: pg1067 on October 12, 2020, 10:11:31 AM
Quote from: 425 on October 11, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
Here's a controversial opinion that's come to mind today:

For a long time, I never bothered to get Once in a Livetime because of its bad reputation. . . .

I bought OIAL when it was released and remember not liking it, and I doubt I've listened to it more than once or twice since the turn of the century.  The worst thing about it is that it's from the tour for one of DT's worst albums.  The way they broke up ACOS didn't work well on CD, and neither do individual instrument solos.  Plus they truncated LTL, which had not had an official live release at that time.  And for the most part, the missing songs would have made it worse.  The 5YIAL video not good either (although the commentary track on the DVD is worth listening to).
I agree with everything here. (and to be honest, even when I still listened to pre-MM era DT, I much preferred LSFNY. (I much preferred any pieces that intersect with OIAL on LSFNY too)

Setlist Scotty

Quote from: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 12, 2020, 10:14:53 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on October 12, 2020, 09:07:55 AM
Quote from: 425 on October 11, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
and maybe the rest of Scarred, which feels oddly edited here?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's just how they used to play Scarred.
Yeah that's the way the played it, they skipped the solos and made a little instrumental transition to the Darkest of Winters.
Actually, no. There is an audience recording of the entire show in circulation, and in that recording, the whole thing was played. In fact, I don't believe that they ever performed it edited in the form that appears on OiaL. I would imagine the edit was done because of concern in getting the whole thing to fit on 2 CDs, altho it turns out that there is enough room for the whole, unedited thing.

IgnotusPerIgnotium

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 12, 2020, 10:42:32 AM
Quote from: IgnotusPerIgnotium on October 12, 2020, 10:14:53 AM
Quote from: MoraWintersoul on October 12, 2020, 09:07:55 AM
Quote from: 425 on October 11, 2020, 09:12:39 PM
and maybe the rest of Scarred, which feels oddly edited here?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's just how they used to play Scarred.
Yeah that's the way the played it, they skipped the solos and made a little instrumental transition to the Darkest of Winters.
Actually, no. There is an audience recording of the entire show in circulation, and in that recording, the whole thing was played. In fact, I don't believe that they ever performed it edited in the form that appears on OiaL. I would imagine the edit was done because of concern in getting the whole thing to fit on 2 CDs, altho it turns out that there is enough room for the whole, unedited thing.
Yes this is correct, actually I just noticed that the OIALT version is an edit! I guess we do learn a new thing every day!

MoraWintersoul

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 12, 2020, 10:42:32 AM
There is an audience recording of the entire show in circulation, and in that recording, the whole thing was played. In fact, I don't believe that they ever performed it edited in the form that appears on OiaL. I would imagine the edit was done because of concern in getting the whole thing to fit on 2 CDs, altho it turns out that there is enough room for the whole, unedited thing.
I have never heard it but you have to be correct! I guess my brain just autofilled the information with how they used to truncate TTT sometimes.

gzarruk

Thankfully we got full live versions of Scarred on CIM and BTFW :metal

Ben_Jamin

Quote from: gzarruk on October 12, 2020, 02:24:06 PM
Thankfully we got full live versions of Scarred on CIM and BTFW :metal

I love the BTFW version. Playing it in album tempo really gives the soft sections of the songs brings back the Awake vibe.

Setlist Scotty

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 12, 2020, 09:31:40 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 12, 2020, 02:24:06 PM
Thankfully we got full live versions of Scarred on CIM and BTFW :metal
I love the BTFW version. Playing it in album tempo really gives the soft sections of the songs brings back the Awake vibe.
You mean, just the same way as when listening to the album version itself? Yeah, that's what I want in a live recording - a repeat of exactly what they did already in the studio.  ::)

I'm glad we got both versions that are on OiaL and CiM - OiaL may not be complete, but I like how both of them offer something different to the studio version. If I want to hear the version that gives off the "Awake vibe", I'll listen to the version on Awake.  ;)

Dublagent66

Quote from: Dedalus on October 10, 2020, 01:17:57 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 09, 2020, 03:58:33 PM
Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 09, 2020, 02:10:13 PM
Then it shouldn't be any different than when they take a minute of silence at sports venues in honor of someone who's passed away or any other minute of silence for that matter.  That's communal silence too.  It's not like this Cage guy invented it.  It isn't something that's composed.  It just is what it is.  I don't see what all the hype is about.
No, that's different, because no one is LISTENING to that.  That's a moment of silence for respect, not something to be listened to.

I mean, I get that you don't like the idea, or want to devalue it, but it's a legit piece of art.  Like any other piece of art, not everyone is going to appreciate it.  But that doesn't mean there's nothing to it.

Exactly. People don't have to like it. They may think it is a stupid idea for stupid people. But it is just an opinion, not a big deal.

John Cage came up with the idea of ​​a "musical" piece (as it was inserted in a musical environment) without sound, in three movements, for an audience more used to the etiquette of classical music. In other words, he knew that people would be silent when the piece was performed. They would hear silence, but no, they would not hear any silence, because there is no silence for living human beings (unless they are totally deaf). People may would experience this, if they were there (and want to).

He is the author of this idea and no one can say otherwise. Even if they want to.

Silent people in a sports venue were not invited to try to hear anything or experience anything. They are not focused on something that was thought of as an artistic experience. They just remain silent in honor of someone they probably don't even care about.

I think the majority would most likely disagree.  It's a nice observation but I wouldn't call it art or presume to take credit for its creation had I been in his position.

Ben_Jamin

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 13, 2020, 02:18:22 PM
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on October 12, 2020, 09:31:40 PM
Quote from: gzarruk on October 12, 2020, 02:24:06 PM
Thankfully we got full live versions of Scarred on CIM and BTFW :metal
I love the BTFW version. Playing it in album tempo really gives the soft sections of the songs brings back the Awake vibe.
You mean, just the same way as when listening to the album version itself? Yeah, that's what I want in a live recording - a repeat of exactly what they did already in the studio.  ::)

I'm glad we got both versions that are on OiaL and CiM - OiaL may not be complete, but I like how both of them offer something different to the studio version. If I want to hear the version that gives off the "Awake vibe", I'll listen to the version on Awake.  ;)

Awake doesn't have the nice Seaboard sound... :biggrin:

Ben_Jamin

With the talk of the I&W in the other thread.

I actually quite enjoy the Chris Cintron vocals of A Change of Seasons. There are certain things he does I find quite neat.

gzarruk

Quote from: SeRoX on October 10, 2020, 09:14:13 PM
I Walk Beside You should turn the set list. Such a uplifting song.

here its last live version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLNysgx98Gc&ab_channel=AmadeusValle

Now Pull Me Under: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK4_jqEBEFs

He went for the craziest, highest part of the song.

SeRoX

I think it sounds smooth and clean for the most part.

Herrick

Quote from: SeRoX on October 19, 2020, 03:52:13 PM
I think it sounds smooth and clean for the most part.

That was surprisingly pretty good.