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Your Controversial Opinions on DT

Started by Lucidity, December 17, 2012, 07:28:25 PM

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54_diplomats

Quote from: LCArenas on July 30, 2020, 05:12:05 PM
Whenever I see WDADU I mentally pronounce it as "Wuh-dah-doo". Is that controversial? Is that even an opinion?
I kinda do that too. Also pronounce SFAM "S-Fam"

IDontNotDoThings

"wah dah doo"
"eye n doubleyoo"
"awake"
"feee"
"suhfam"
"suhdoit"
"tot"
"oct"
"sssk"
"buhcassil"
"additoy"
"dee tee twelve"
"taah"
"dot"

LCArenas

Quote from: IDontNotDoThings on July 30, 2020, 07:57:57 PM
"wah dah doo"
"eye n doubleyoo"
"awake"
"feee"
"suhfam"
"suhdoit"
"tot"
"oct"
"sssk"
"buhcassil"
"additoy"
"dee tee twelve"
"taah"
"dot"
:lol
I pronounce them the same way, except "Ess-fam", "Six-do-it", "Eight-vee-em" and "Add-toe-ee"

Evermind

I pronounce them in Russian in my head so this is gonna be fun :lol

Vdah-doo
Ee ee veh (as in "van")
Awake
Feh ee ee (as in "fan")
As feh ah am
As deh oh ee teh (as in "dad" and "ten")
Tot
8 veh am
As kah
Back ah as al
Ah deh teh oh yeah
Deh teh 12
Teh ah
Dot
Quote from: Train of Naught on May 28, 2020, 10:57:25 PMThis first band is Soen very cool swingy jazz fusion kinda stuff.

pg1067

Quote from: LCArenas on July 30, 2020, 05:12:05 PM
Whenever I see WDADU I mentally pronounce it as "Wuh-dah-doo". Is that controversial? Is that even an opinion?

No and no.

Fact:  "Whenever I see WDADU I mentally pronounce it as 'Wuh-dah-doo'." (as do I, BTW)
Opinion:  "WDADU is DT's best album."


I don't do any of these out loud, but in my head:

wuh-DAH-doo
A-kos
ESS-fam
six-doit or ess-doit
tot
add-toh
dot

For the albums not mentioned, I will occasionally pronounce the letters straight (e.g., eight-vee-em or dee-tee-twelve) or just use the actual name.

MirrorMask

I mentally associate in my head the acronym to the album and that's all. I mean, when I see the word "red" I don't have to translate it in my head to the name of that colour in my language, I know what the word means. Same with "FII" for example.

The only exception is SFAM, in my head I read it / mentally pronounce it the way it's written. It does not rhyme with "ham" however, I mentally-pronounce it the italian way where the A sounds like in "drama".

Madman Shepherd

The only album I do that for is ADTOE (add-toe) which is a very bad acronym for what I originally found to be a bad album title. I have since made peace with add-toe and actually like the title A Dramatic Turn of Events which is pretty off the wall and I still don't think is a great title but sort of symbolizes the band turning a corner and is my favorite DT album

TAC

Quote from: wkiml on June 08, 2012, 09:06:35 AMwould have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on April 22, 2023, 05:54:45 PMTAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Dublagent66

Quote from: Madman Shepherd on August 02, 2020, 09:31:25 AM
The only album I do that for is ADTOE (add-toe) which is a very bad acronym for what I originally found to be a bad album title. I have since made peace with add-toe and actually like the title A Dramatic Turn of Events which is pretty off the wall and I still don't think is a great title but sort of symbolizes the band turning a corner and is my favorite DT album

Before the title was revealed, I was hoping they would call it "Crossroads" which basically means a turning or pivotal point in their career.  I've never liked the title they came up with.   Seemed a little too corny and cliché.  But, it is one of their best in the MM era.

Revenge319

Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 01, 2020, 03:17:27 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on August 02, 2020, 09:31:25 AM
The only album I do that for is ADTOE (add-toe) which is a very bad acronym for what I originally found to be a bad album title. I have since made peace with add-toe and actually like the title A Dramatic Turn of Events which is pretty off the wall and I still don't think is a great title but sort of symbolizes the band turning a corner and is my favorite DT album

Before the title was revealed, I was hoping they would call it "Crossroads" which basically means a turning or pivotal point in their career.  I've never liked the title they came up with.   Seemed a little too corny and cliché.  But, it is one of their best in the MM era.

I think it's a good title. I got into Dream Theater in 2016, though, so maybe if I'd been a fan since when Portnoy was in the band, I might've thought differently about "A Dramatic Turn of Events" being the name for the first album made after he left.

jonny108

Quote from: Madman Shepherd on August 02, 2020, 09:31:25 AM
The only album I do that for is ADTOE (add-toe) which is a very bad acronym for what I originally found to be a bad album title. I have since made peace with add-toe and actually like the title A Dramatic Turn of Events which is pretty off the wall and I still don't think is a great title but sort of symbolizes the band turning a corner and is my favorite DT album

Agree, wished they went with Bridges in the Sky as the album title as it was originally.  The song could have been kept as Bridges or with The Shaman's Trance. 

Herrick

Quote from: jonny108 on October 01, 2020, 05:00:02 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on August 02, 2020, 09:31:25 AM
The only album I do that for is ADTOE (add-toe) which is a very bad acronym for what I originally found to be a bad album title. I have since made peace with add-toe and actually like the title A Dramatic Turn of Events which is pretty off the wall and I still don't think is a great title but sort of symbolizes the band turning a corner and is my favorite DT album

Agree, wished they went with Bridges in the Sky as the album title as it was originally.  The song could have been kept as Bridges or with The Shaman's Trance.

I didn't know that was the original album title. I never liked the title they went with.
DISPLAY thy breasts, my Julia!

MirrorMask

Quote from: jonny108 on October 01, 2020, 05:00:02 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on August 02, 2020, 09:31:25 AM
The only album I do that for is ADTOE (add-toe) which is a very bad acronym for what I originally found to be a bad album title. I have since made peace with add-toe and actually like the title A Dramatic Turn of Events which is pretty off the wall and I still don't think is a great title but sort of symbolizes the band turning a corner and is my favorite DT album

Agree, wished they went with Bridges in the Sky as the album title as it was originally.  The song could have been kept as Bridges or with The Shaman's Trance.

Indeed. There's nothing wrong or corny about "The Shaman's Trance" given the song, and also the little tradition of naming the album after a line in a song would have been honored once again.

Evai

ADTOE definitely doesn't use Images And Words song structures
The album title was completely unrelated to Portnoy's departure
'Take the evening to de- ide' - There is no vocal editing error here

darkshade

Quote from: Evai on October 02, 2020, 02:32:11 AM
ADTOE definitely doesn't use Images And Words song structures
The album title was completely unrelated to Portnoy's departure
'Take the evening to de- ide' - There is no vocal editing error here

The songs don't copy the IaW song structures note-for-note (though On The Backs of Angels comes pretty close)
but the flow of the album is strikingly similar to IaW, with the exception of adding a ballad to end the album.

pg1067

#10200
Quote from: Evai on October 02, 2020, 02:32:11 AM
ADTOE definitely doesn't use Images And Words song structures

Sorry, but that's just demonstrably false as to some songs.  I broke down the similarities between LTL and BAI in great detail a week or so ago.  If I can find the post, I'll add a link.


Quote from: darkshade on October 02, 2020, 04:43:19 AM
The songs don't copy the IaW song structures note-for-note (though On The Backs of Angels comes pretty close)
but the flow of the album is strikingly similar to IaW, with the exception of adding a ballad to end the album.

Song structure and note-for-note are not the same thing.  None of the songs are even close to being note-for-note copies and, even with the structural near-identity between LTL and BAI, the two songs are ultimately quite different.  And, while I see some similarities between PMU and OTBOA and between Met1 and Outcry, I find those easy to overlook.  BAI hit me almost instantly after my first listen.

EDITED for a rather important omission.

Dublagent66

Quote from: jonny108 on October 01, 2020, 05:00:02 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on August 02, 2020, 09:31:25 AM
The only album I do that for is ADTOE (add-toe) which is a very bad acronym for what I originally found to be a bad album title. I have since made peace with add-toe and actually like the title A Dramatic Turn of Events which is pretty off the wall and I still don't think is a great title but sort of symbolizes the band turning a corner and is my favorite DT album

Agree, wished they went with Bridges in the Sky as the album title as it was originally.  The song could have been kept as Bridges or with The Shaman's Trance.

That would've been cool as it fits the album art and then BiTS would've been the title track, but why would they change the title to ADTOE?  I mean, other than what would seem to be the obvious reason.

Trav86

Since you're all talking about ADTOE, maybe this is controversial. I recently listened to it for the first time in a while and thought, "this might be my favorite DT album".

Max Kuehnau

Quote from: Trav86 on October 02, 2020, 09:26:52 AM
Since you're all talking about ADTOE, maybe this is controversial. I recently listened to it for the first time in a while and thought, "this might be my favorite DT album".
it certainly is mine.

darkshade

Quote from: pg1067 on October 02, 2020, 08:39:16 AM
Quote from: Evai on October 02, 2020, 02:32:11 AM
ADTOE definitely doesn't use Images And Words song structures

Sorry, but that's just demonstrably false as to some songs.  I broke down the similarities between LTL and BAI in great detail a week or so ago.  If I can find the post, I'll add a link.


Quote from: darkshade on October 02, 2020, 04:43:19 AM
The songs don't copy the IaW song structures note-for-note (though On The Backs of Angels comes pretty close)
but the flow of the album is strikingly similar to IaW, with the exception of adding a ballad to end the album.

Song structure and note-for-note.  None of the songs are even note-for-note copies and, even with the structural near-identity between LTL and BAI, the two songs are ultimately quite different.  And, while I see some similarities between PMU and OTBOA and between Met1 and Outcry, I find those easy to overlook.  BAI hit me almost instantly after my first listen.

I don't think the individual songs sound like rip offs of their counterparts on IaW, but there's too many parallels between the order of the songs and the songs they represent as being "like" IaW songs.

Here is what I mean by the flow of the albums being similar.

OTBOA = Pull Me Under, this has been discussed already. It's not the same song, it's not the same riffs, melodies, etc, but it sounds like PMU was the inspiration for this song. This is the one song where there are some musical similarities to be found, structurally.

BMU, BMD = Another Day, obviously these two songs have nothing to do with each other, except they are "trendy" songs on their albums.
Another Day screams early 90s r&B/smooth jazz that was popular at the time. BMU, BMD is very heavy and dark.

LNF = Take The Time, again, songs don't sound the same, but they're both the first big showcase of the band's chops and prog rock writing abilities after opening song and mainstream hit attempt.

This Is the Life = Surrounded, don't sound the same, but are breather tunes, even if Surrounded rocks a little harder, solo seems to be inspired by Under A Glass Moon solo.

at this point the next two songs are switched.

BITS = Under A Glass Moon, definitely don't sound the same, but heavier riffs respective to their albums, lots of crazy stuff throughout.

Outcry = Metropolis Pt 1, song/long instrumental break/song. To be fair, this song structure exists in a few other songs throughout DT's catalog prior to ADTOE, this may be the last time the band has written a song with that structure, though.

FFH/BAI = Learning to Live, yes they are completely different musically, but this is the more obvious example, especially with each big track reprising the main themes from their respective album's lead-in track.

and on ADTOE, they added one more song to close, a ballad, and it works against the overall theme of ADTOE.

Ben_Jamin

For some reason, Under A Glass Moon hasn't really sat well with me. I'll still listen to it if it comes on, and I did jam out and sing along with it on the I&W&B tour. But it's not one I will look for and play. 

So, I am listening to the Images and Words Demoes. Under A Glass Moon instrumental demo is playing and...

I like this better than what is on the actual album, and it works better as an instrumental.



And to tie this into the ADTOE discussion. Lost Not Forgotten has the same effect on me, which is pretty funny in itself.

MirrorMask

Quote from: darkshade on October 02, 2020, 09:30:26 AM
LNF = Take The Time, again, songs don't sound the same, but they're both the first big showcase of the band's chops and prog rock writing abilities after opening song and mainstream hit attempt.
BITS = Under A Glass Moon, definitely don't sound the same, but heavier riffs respective to their albums, lots of crazy stuff throughout.

Whaaat? LNF, save the piano intro, has strong similarities to under a Glass Moon.

The correct pairings are:

Back of Angels = Pull Me Under (quite similar)

LNF = Under a Glass Moon (quite similar but obviously with the added piano intro)

Outcy = Metropolis (many correlations, but Outrcy has a chorus and obviously Metropolis doesn't)

Far from Heaven = Wait for Sleep

Illusions = Learning to Live

That's it. The remaining songs are not correlacted at all to the song structures of the missing songs.

They did take inspiration from many Images and Words songs. But they did NOT *copy* song for song and tracklist for tracklist the entire album, come on.

gzarruk

Quote from: MirrorMask on October 02, 2020, 10:13:38 AM
Quote from: darkshade on October 02, 2020, 09:30:26 AM
LNF = Take The Time, again, songs don't sound the same, but they're both the first big showcase of the band's chops and prog rock writing abilities after opening song and mainstream hit attempt.
BITS = Under A Glass Moon, definitely don't sound the same, but heavier riffs respective to their albums, lots of crazy stuff throughout.

Whaaat? LNF, save the piano intro, has strong similarities to under a Glass Moon.

The correct pairings are:

Back of Angels = Pull Me Under (quite similar)

LNF = Under a Glass Moon (quite similar but obviously with the added piano intro)

Outcy = Metropolis (many correlations, but Outrcy has a chorus and obviously Metropolis doesn't)

Far from Heaven = Wait for Sleep

Illusions = Learning to Live

That's it. The remaining songs are not correlacted at all to the song structures of the missing songs.

They did take inspiration from many Images and Words songs. But they did NOT *copy* song for song and tracklist for tracklist the entire album, come on.

We could say there's similarities between Another Day / This is the Life too, but that's it.

hunnus2000

Quote from: gzarruk on October 02, 2020, 10:19:39 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 02, 2020, 10:13:38 AM
Quote from: darkshade on October 02, 2020, 09:30:26 AM
LNF = Take The Time, again, songs don't sound the same, but they're both the first big showcase of the band's chops and prog rock writing abilities after opening song and mainstream hit attempt.
BITS = Under A Glass Moon, definitely don't sound the same, but heavier riffs respective to their albums, lots of crazy stuff throughout.

Whaaat? LNF, save the piano intro, has strong similarities to under a Glass Moon.

The correct pairings are:

Back of Angels = Pull Me Under (quite similar)

LNF = Under a Glass Moon (quite similar but obviously with the added piano intro)

Outcy = Metropolis (many correlations, but Outrcy has a chorus and obviously Metropolis doesn't)

Far from Heaven = Wait for Sleep

Illusions = Learning to Live

That's it. The remaining songs are not correlacted at all to the song structures of the missing songs.

They did take inspiration from many Images and Words songs. But they did NOT *copy* song for song and tracklist for tracklist the entire album, come on.

We could say there's similarities between Another Day / This is the Life too, but that's it.

I created a playlist of these songs so I could listen side by side and while they are similar in structure, they sound nothing like each other. But I have to admit, the MM era sounds more mature.

Kotowboy

1. Awake is not great. After the 3 great opening songs it's pretty boring.

2. Falling Into Infinity is one of their best albums.

3. I don't get the love for KevMo - however - i'd be happy to revisit since my previous favourite Derek turned out to be a Roid Rage POS

4. Octavarium is one of - if not their best albums.

5. In The Presence Of Enemies is their worst Epic.

6. You can call it one song all day long but Six Degrees is 8 songs.  It consists of eight individual pieces of music which are structured like songs with a beginning and an end

and then a brand new piece of music starts with almost no connective tissue. It's 8 songs.

Setlist Scotty

Quote from: Kotowboy on October 02, 2020, 11:11:12 AM
3. I don't get the love for KevMo - however - i'd be happy to revisit since my previous favourite Derek turned out to be a Roid Rage POS
Wat


Quote from: Kotowboy on October 02, 2020, 11:11:12 AM
6. You can call it one song all day long but Six Degrees is 8 songs.  It consists of eight individual pieces of music which are structured like songs with a beginning and an end and then a brand new piece of music starts with almost no connective tissue. It's 8 songs.
Disagree. And certainly WIMH isn't structured like a song "with a beginning and an end". Taking it a step further, I think it should've been indexed to 9 individual since Losing Time and Grand Finale, altho they flow together are separate (or else they wouldn't have separate names). And taking that into consideration, they don't fit into your idea od being complete songs on their own either. Furthermore, I doubt half the people who claim this is 8 separate songs instead of 1 would be making that statement if it was indexed as 1 track on the original album, like it is on Score.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2015, 07:37:14 PMAs a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.
Quote from: TAC on July 10, 2024, 08:26:41 AMPOW is awesome! :P

MirrorMask

The real question is more general and borders on semantics... how long a song can realistically be (unless it's The Angel and the Gambler  ;D) before you can't call it anymore a "song"? you either make the most repetitive song of all time, or you have to add different stuff into it, which might not have the same feel of other parts of the song.

Could there even be a "rule" that coul be applied to all longass pieces to properly define what is a song and what is a suite, a multi-track composition, separated songs all glued into one...? probably not.

MoraWintersoul

Quote from: Kotowboy on October 02, 2020, 11:11:12 AM
3. I don't get the love for KevMo
There are several different "loves" for KevMo, based on the roles he performed, so I don't know which one you don't get? He wore all the hats that JP and MP and JMX did during their time together, he did it well, touched people, we loved it. That's about all there is to it.

425

Quote from: MirrorMask on October 02, 2020, 11:37:47 AM
Could there even be a "rule" that coul be applied to all longass pieces to properly define what is a song and what is a suite, a multi-track composition, separated songs all glued into one...? probably not.

I'd add that you could create a problem the other direction. It seems like there are two criteria being raised here: the length of the song, and the elements connecting each part to the others. Would Kotowboy treat SDOIT as a single song if it had more repeated themes and binding elements? Then it seems to be an issue of structure more so than length. But then, one could write a short song that has distinct sections that don't have a lot in common. Could that be a single, say, four minute song, or does it have to be broken into a two minute song and two one minute songs? Then it would seem this is about length and structure, and then there's a lot that you'd have to do to define the standards.

Dublagent66

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on October 02, 2020, 11:30:55 AM
Quote from: Kotowboy on October 02, 2020, 11:11:12 AM
6. You can call it one song all day long but Six Degrees is 8 songs.  It consists of eight individual pieces of music which are structured like songs with a beginning and an end and then a brand new piece of music starts with almost no connective tissue. It's 8 songs.
Disagree. And certainly WIMH isn't structured like a song "with a beginning and an end". Taking it a step further, I think it should've been indexed to 9 individual since Losing Time and Grand Finale, altho they flow together are separate (or else they wouldn't have separate names). And taking that into consideration, they don't fit into your idea od being complete songs on their own either. Furthermore, I doubt half the people who claim this is 8 separate songs instead of 1 would be making that statement if it was indexed as 1 track on the original album, like it is on Score.

This.  Yes, indexing would've worked better for a more seamless result like they did with ACOS.  That would make it seem more like one song as the band intended.  I really don't distinguish between the two.  Just because SDOIT is split into 8 tracks, doesn't make me think they are 8 separate songs when they all flow together as part of one song.  Besides, the band says it's one song.  That's all we really needed to know.  Anything outside of that is just wrong.

hefdaddy42

Quote from: MirrorMask on October 02, 2020, 11:37:47 AM
The real question is more general and borders on semantics... how long a song can realistically be (unless it's The Angel and the Gambler  ;D) before you can't call it anymore a "song"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Slow_as_Possible

QuoteThe performance of the organ version at St. Burchardi church in Halberstadt, Germany began in 2001 and is scheduled to have a duration of 639 years, ending in 2640.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 11, 2014, 08:19:46 PMHef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

pg1067

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 05, 2020, 07:24:57 AM
Quote from: MirrorMask on October 02, 2020, 11:37:47 AM
The real question is more general and borders on semantics... how long a song can realistically be (unless it's The Angel and the Gambler  ;D) before you can't call it anymore a "song"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Slow_as_Possible

QuoteThe performance of the organ version at St. Burchardi church in Halberstadt, Germany began in 2001 and is scheduled to have a duration of 639 years, ending in 2640.

I thought that would be the dumbest thing I'd read today, but then I found this -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4%E2%80%B233%E2%80%B3 -- another "composition" by the same person.

"4′33″ (pronounced "four minutes, thirty-three seconds" or just "four thirty-three") is a three-movement composition by American experimental composer John Cage (1912–1992). It was composed in 1952, for any instrument or combination of instruments, and the score instructs performers not to play their instruments during the entire duration of the piece throughout the three movements."

gzarruk

Quote from: pg1067 on October 05, 2020, 09:32:19 AM
I thought that would be the dumbest thing I'd read today, but then I found this -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4%E2%80%B233%E2%80%B3 -- another "composition" by the same person.

"4′33″ (pronounced "four minutes, thirty-three seconds" or just "four thirty-three") is a three-movement composition by American experimental composer John Cage (1912–1992). It was composed in 1952, for any instrument or combination of instruments, and the score instructs performers not to play their instruments during the entire duration of the piece throughout the three movements."

Back when I was studying music at the University for a while (ended up switching to Marketing) we had to watch a video performance of 4'33'' for a class. It was as dumb as it sounds :lol

hefdaddy42

I don't think there is anything at all dumb about John Cage or his compositions.  They show an elevated viewpoint of music, and what it means, and what can be achieved with it.  It's almost a deconstruction of composition.

I'm surprised you are just now learning about 4'33".  It's fairly well-known, and I know it's been discussed here on the forum before.  But maybe it was a long time ago.

One of the points of 4'33" is for the audience member to focus on the lack of sound, which opens one up to all of the real sound happening all around them.  Plus, it's cool to just be quite for a while, although apparently it unnerves some people.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 11, 2014, 08:19:46 PMHef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Max Kuehnau

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 05, 2020, 09:48:10 AM
I don't think there is anything at all dumb about John Cage or his compositions.  They show an elevated viewpoint of music, and what it means, and what can be achieved with it.  It's almost a deconstruction of composition.

I'm surprised you are just now learning about 4'33".  It's fairly well-known, and I know it's been discussed here on the forum before.  But maybe it was a long time ago.

One of the points of 4'33" is for the audience member to focus on the lack of sound, which opens one up to all of the real sound happening all around them.  Plus, it's cool to just be quite for a while, although apparently it unnerves some people.
I don't think he was stupid. I conducted the piece once. One eye on the players (who do not play in the piece) and one eye on a stopwatch :D (opening and closing the piano lid three times too. Effort people. Effort.)