Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 547863 times)

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Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10010 on: April 24, 2020, 07:10:18 PM »
The Enemy Inside is somewhere in my top 50. I think it's a kickass song, but I wouldn't call it the best since Octavarium. In the 2006-2013 timeframe, I could name The Dark Eternal Night, The Ministry Of Lost Souls, In The Presence Of Enemies 1 & 2, A Nightmare To Remember, Wither, The Shattered Fortress, The Count Of Tuscany, On The Backs Of Angels, Lost Not Forgotten, Far From Heaven, Breaking All Illusions, The Bigger Picture, Surrender To Reason, and Illumination Theory as examples of songs I'd put above it.
Sigh... here we go.....
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10011 on: April 27, 2020, 09:43:49 AM »
The Enemy Inside is the best song DT have done since Octavarium.

Hmmm...counting ITPOE as a single song and excluding NOMAC tracks, I believe they've released 69 songs on the six albums since 8VM.

For me, The Enemy Inside probably comes in around 20-25 of those 69 songs (and significantly lower when you consider all DT songs).  Heck, it's no better than the #4 song on its own album.

By way of reference, in the recent album tournament, it came in at #5 and lost in the first round to the #4 song (The Bigger Picture) by an 18-16 vote.  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=54489.0

In the overall tournament, TEI finished tied for 69th place with an 18-15-2 record.  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=53461.msg2600586#msg2600586
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Offline Max Kuehnau

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10012 on: April 27, 2020, 10:10:38 AM »
Ok this technically isn't an opinion I'm "entitled" to have (since I'm not a guitarist), but I do: My personal favourite guitar tones that JP had were Met2, ADTOE, DT12 and The Astonishing (some on D/T as well though), so not I/W or Awake (although I mostly like his parts on most albums, both the ones I mentioned and didn't mention.)

Another one: I prefer The Silent Man entirely acoustically.
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Offline Indiscipline

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10013 on: April 27, 2020, 10:15:00 AM »
Ok this technically isn't an opinion I'm "entitled" to have (since I'm not a guitarist), but I do: My personal favourite guitar tones that JP had were Met2, ADTOE, DT12 and The Astonishing (some on D/T as well though), so not I/W or Awake (although I mostly like his parts on most albums)

You have ears, you are entitled to have whatever opinion you like.

Offline pg1067

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10014 on: April 27, 2020, 10:57:52 AM »
Ok this technically isn't an opinion I'm "entitled" to have (since I'm not a guitarist), but I do: My personal favourite guitar tones that JP had were Met2, ADTOE, DT12 and The Astonishing (some on D/T as well though), so not I/W or Awake (although I mostly like his parts on most albums, both the ones I mentioned and didn't mention.)

Indiscipline beat me to the punch, but you don't have to be a guitarist to have valid opinions about guitar tone.  In fact, I just wrote in another thread that one of the reasons I don't like Megadeath is because of the guitar tone on the songs I've heard.  I've also said many times in this and other forums that Alex Lifeson's guitar tone is one of the many things that makes Grace Under Pressure a substandard album.

I would say JP's best tones can be found on a single song:  A Change of Seasons -- in particular, the part starting at 11:30, and even more particularly at 11:54.  The diversity of tones on that song is staggering, and pretty much every one has depth and character.  I would say that, in general, his tones since Systematic Chaos have been relatively generic.
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Offline Max Kuehnau

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10015 on: April 27, 2020, 11:37:53 AM »
Ok this technically isn't an opinion I'm "entitled" to have (since I'm not a guitarist), but I do: My personal favourite guitar tones that JP had were Met2, ADTOE, DT12 and The Astonishing (some on D/T as well though), so not I/W or Awake (although I mostly like his parts on most albums, both the ones I mentioned and didn't mention.)

Indiscipline beat me to the punch, but you don't have to be a guitarist to have valid opinions about guitar tone.  In fact, I just wrote in another thread that one of the reasons I don't like Megadeath is because of the guitar tone on the songs I've heard.  I've also said many times in this and other forums that Alex Lifeson's guitar tone is one of the many things that makes Grace Under Pressure a substandard album.

I would say JP's best tones can be found on a single song:  A Change of Seasons -- in particular, the part starting at 11:30, and even more particularly at 11:54.  The diversity of tones on that song is staggering, and pretty much every one has depth and character.  I would say that, in general, his tones since Systematic Chaos have been relatively generic.
yeah that's great too in that respect (of course, and it has been even more so when I saw them play it live twice), I wanted to include it originally. Simply forgot about it.
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Offline Trav86

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10016 on: April 27, 2020, 01:32:45 PM »
While I think the last four albums are all great, I donít think anything DT has released since 2000 stands up to anything from pre-2000.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10017 on: April 27, 2020, 01:39:22 PM »
While I think the last four albums are all great, I donít think anything DT has released since 2000 stands up to anything from pre-2000.

I can think of at least 9 albums post 2000 that I would take over FII.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10018 on: April 27, 2020, 01:43:56 PM »
While I think the last four albums are all great, I donít think anything DT has released since 2000 stands up to anything from pre-2000.

So...albums like SDOIT and Octavarium don't "stand up to" WDADU?


While I think the last four albums are all great, I donít think anything DT has released since 2000 stands up to anything from pre-2000.

I can think of at least 9 7 albums post 2000 that I would take over either WDADU or FII.

Fixed for me.
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Offline Trav86

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10019 on: April 27, 2020, 01:58:13 PM »
In my personal (controversial) opinion, I like WDADU more than SDOIT and 8V.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10020 on: April 27, 2020, 02:07:54 PM »
In my personal (controversial) opinion, I like WDADU more than SDOIT and 8V.

So do I.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline JiM-Xtreme

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10021 on: April 29, 2020, 06:35:22 AM »
I find WDADU to be very underrated generally. But I wouldn't go as far as you guys on this one  :lol

Offline Northern Lion

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10022 on: April 29, 2020, 07:29:00 AM »
I'm not a big fan of the original WDaDU.  However, the reunite version is awesome!  I recently compared the singing performances between Dominici and Labrie and I was amazed at the difference.  To me, Labrie has a lot more variety and texture to his singing style which elevated the songs dramatically.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10023 on: April 29, 2020, 07:35:51 AM »
I'm not a big fan of the original WDaDU.  However, the reunite version is awesome!  I recently compared the singing performances between Dominici and Labrie and I was amazed at the difference.  To me, Labrie has a lot more variety and texture to his singing style which elevated the songs dramatically.

Totally agree. I consider WDADRu a top DT album. I love those songs. And the original has its charm too.  The Score version of Afterlife is incredible.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline DTA

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10024 on: April 29, 2020, 08:23:51 AM »
I like Charlie better than James on WDADU songs - even I&W-era LaBrie. His voice just fits the music perfectly and (not counting the weird high note in TKH) he does a great job.

Offline Trav86

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10025 on: April 29, 2020, 02:50:18 PM »
I like Charlie better than James on WDADU songs - even I&W-era LaBrie. His voice just fits the music perfectly and (not counting the weird high note in TKH) he does a great job.

I'm with you on this. I don't mind hearing James singing them during the IW tour. I especially love Another Hand/The Killing Hand, but I prefer the original versions of all of those songs. I've never been bothered by the production and all of that like most people complain about. And while I prefer James as a vocalist, those songs sound weird without Charlie's quirky vocal inflections in certain places. As for the 2004 WDADRU thing...no thanks. James wasn't exactly having his best night and Jordan messes around with the parts too much. I've never been a fan of that one.
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Offline Northern Lion

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10026 on: April 29, 2020, 03:01:13 PM »
I like Charlie better than James on WDADU songs - even I&W-era LaBrie. His voice just fits the music perfectly and (not counting the weird high note in TKH) he does a great job.

I'm with you on this. I don't mind hearing James singing them during the IW tour. I especially love Another Hand/The Killing Hand, but I prefer the original versions of all of those songs. I've never been bothered by the production and all of that like most people complain about. And while I prefer James as a vocalist, those songs sound weird without Charlie's quirky vocal inflections in certain places. As for the 2004 WDADRU thing...no thanks. James wasn't exactly having his best night and Jordan messes around with the parts too much. I've never been a fan of that one.

I agree with you, production doesn't really matter to me all that much, unless it's a really BAD one.

Really?  I thought James knocked it out of the park.  To my ear, he sounds in tune and all around fantastic.  But my ears are probably not the best judge of sound quality anyway.  Too much Metallica for too long. :biggrin:
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Offline Trav86

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10027 on: April 29, 2020, 03:09:40 PM »
I could be remembering it wrong. I haven't listened to it since it was new. So like...15 years?  ;D
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10028 on: April 29, 2020, 03:30:49 PM »
I like Charlie better than James on WDADU songs - even I&W-era LaBrie. His voice just fits the music perfectly and (not counting the weird high note in TKH) he does a great job.

I'm with you on this. I don't mind hearing James singing them during the IW tour. I especially love Another Hand/The Killing Hand, but I prefer the original versions of all of those songs. I've never been bothered by the production and all of that like most people complain about. And while I prefer James as a vocalist, those songs sound weird without Charlie's quirky vocal inflections in certain places. As for the 2004 WDADRU thing...no thanks. James wasn't exactly having his best night and Jordan messes around with the parts too much. I've never been a fan of that one.

I'm mostly on board with this.  The live version of Another Hand/TKH on Live at the Marquee is the definitive recording of that song.  Otherwise, give me the WDADU recordings.

As for WDADRu, I own it on DVD but not CD.  I enjoy it and watch it now and then and don't really have a problem with James's performance (or whatever changes JR might have made to KM's parts).  If I had it on CD, I probably wouldn't listen to it much.  The best thing about the DVD is the band commentary track -- particularly when JR noted that so many of JM's bass lines were very sad sounding and he asked with a genuinely concerned tone to his voice:  "Were you ok back then?"
"There's a bass solo in a song called Metropolis where I do a bass solo."  John Myung

Offline Trav86

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10029 on: April 29, 2020, 04:43:08 PM »
And also some of that very interesting conversation between JM and MP which revealed that maybe not everyone was on the same page in the band.
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Offline Evai

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10030 on: April 29, 2020, 05:16:04 PM »
The sad bass lines comment is from Live In Tokyo though. I've never heard the WDADRu commentary
Jordan took Moore's boring, pedestrian parts and elevated them considerably to take them from barely palatable to stellar.

Offline pg1067

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10031 on: April 29, 2020, 05:17:33 PM »
And also some of that very interesting conversation between JM and MP which revealed that maybe not everyone was on the same page in the band.

I took that more as MP being snarky toward JM.  And, interestingly, the way that they wrote and recorded DOT was pretty much exactly what JM was wistfully longing for in that discussion.  Of course, whereas they all had fairly young children back then, I think all of their kids are now adults.


The sad bass lines comment is from Live In Tokyo though. I've never heard the WDADRu commentary

Hmmm....  It's possible I'm mixing them up, but I'm pretty sure it's in WDADRu (even if it's also in LIT).
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10032 on: April 29, 2020, 07:20:15 PM »
I like Charlie better than James on WDADU songs - even I&W-era LaBrie. His voice just fits the music perfectly and (not counting the weird high note in TKH) he does a great job.

I'm with you on this. I don't mind hearing James singing them during the IW tour. I especially love Another Hand/The Killing Hand, but I prefer the original versions of all of those songs. I've never been bothered by the production and all of that like most people complain about. And while I prefer James as a vocalist, those songs sound weird without Charlie's quirky vocal inflections in certain places. As for the 2004 WDADRU thing...no thanks. James wasn't exactly having his best night and Jordan messes around with the parts too much. I've never been a fan of that one.

Agreed, on both accounts, especially the second.  Jordan overplaying some of Kevin Moore's keyboard parts ruined much of the WDADR experience for me.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10033 on: April 29, 2020, 07:23:19 PM »
Your wording is a bit confusing.  But I agree that Jordan took Moore's boring, pedestrian parts and elevated them considerably to take them from barely palatable to stellar.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10034 on: April 29, 2020, 07:25:11 PM »
Not taking the bait.

Go fish elsewhere. :lol :lol

Offline bosk1

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10035 on: April 29, 2020, 07:30:52 PM »
Drat.

:ontome:
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Offline Evai

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10036 on: April 30, 2020, 05:23:06 AM »
Now there's a quote!
Jordan took Moore's boring, pedestrian parts and elevated them considerably to take them from barely palatable to stellar.

Offline Max Kuehnau

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10037 on: April 30, 2020, 05:40:42 AM »
Your wording is a bit confusing.  But I agree that Jordan took Moore's boring, pedestrian parts and elevated them considerably to take them from barely palatable to stellar.
Thanks mate, I fully agree.

(this actually was what I always thought when James, Jordan and Mike respectively came on board btw, them each elevating the music. When I heard Jordan play the I/W material for the first time, I never went back to listening to Kevin Moore, as one example. As with Mike and James.)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 06:13:21 AM by Max Kuehnau »
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Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10038 on: May 07, 2020, 08:22:33 AM »
In my personal (controversial) opinion, I like WDADU more than SDOIT and 8V.

I would maybe put it on par with 8V, behind disc 1 of SDOIT and well above disc 2

Offline LCArenas

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10039 on: May 07, 2020, 10:21:36 AM »
I don't know if this is actually controversial, but Score might be one of the best live albums ever made. At least top Rock/Metal albums ever made, that's for sure

Offline pg1067

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10040 on: May 07, 2020, 12:51:00 PM »
I don't know if this is actually controversial, but Score might be one of the best live albums ever made. At least top Rock/Metal albums ever made, that's for sure

I own the DVD but not the CD of Score.  The part with the orchestra is AWESOME, and that's as long as a lot of bands' full concerts.  "The Score So Far" is a really good documentary, and it's cool to have the Octavarium animation.

The rest of of, however, is very "meh" (at best).

The Root of All Evil is a good song and show opener.

IWBY is probably the worst song on 8VM

Another Won is fine for what it is.

UAGM is my least favorite or second least favorite song on I&W.

Innocence Faded is my least or second least favorite song on Awake.

Raise the Knife is a bleh song that didn't make the cut for a bottom 2-3 DT album.

TSCO is a good live song, but it's way better in the context of the full SFAM show that we have on LSFNY.

And the bonus songs aren't any better.

If UAGM isn't my least favorite song on I&W, Another Day is.

The Great Debate is a bottom 5 DT song.

Honor Thy Father is the worst song on TOT by a pretty wide margin.

Given the structure of the part of the set without the orchestra, they would have been hard-pressed to put together a set that I liked less.  Fortunately, everything else on the DVD makes it great in spite of that.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10041 on: May 07, 2020, 02:08:40 PM »
^agree to disagree on the quality of the first set of SCORE^
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Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10042 on: May 07, 2020, 03:09:17 PM »
^agree to disagree on the quality of the first set of SCORE^

I think the first set is great but I also think there were better choices for everything except the Majesty Demos and Scenes From a Memory. My personal setlist would have looked like...

The Root of All Evil
These Walls
Another Won
Afterlife
Take the Time
Lifting Shadows off a Dream
Lines in the Sand
The Spirit Carries On

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Vacant
Stream of Consciousness
The Answer Lies Within
Sacrificed Sons
Octavarium

A Change of Seasons
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10043 on: May 07, 2020, 03:13:22 PM »
I think Bosk did a thread about the Score set list a while back.
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #10044 on: May 07, 2020, 03:30:39 PM »
I don't know if this is actually controversial, but Score might be one of the best live albums ever made. At least top Rock/Metal albums ever made, that's for sure

Statement based on how many live albums you've heard in full?



The Enemy Inside is the best song DT have done since Octavarium.

Hmmm...counting ITPOE as a single song and excluding NOMAC tracks, I believe they've released 69 songs on the six albums since 8VM.

For me, The Enemy Inside probably comes in around 20-25 of those 69 songs (and significantly lower when you consider all DT songs).  Heck, it's no better than the #4 song on its own album.

By way of reference, in the recent album tournament, it came in at #5 and lost in the first round to the #4 song (The Bigger Picture) by an 18-16 vote.  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=54489.0

In the overall tournament, TEI finished tied for 69th place with an 18-15-2 record.  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=53461.msg2600586#msg2600586

Okay, that's fine and all. Apparently the majority (at least those who vote in the DT League) disagrees with me - hence me posting it in the controversial opinions thread.
Hey dude slow the fuck down so we can finish together at the same time.  :biggrin:
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