Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[IDontNotDoThings]

The Enemy Inside is somewhere in my top 50. I think it's a kickass song, but I wouldn't call it the best since Octavarium. In the 2006-2013 timeframe, I could name The Dark Eternal Night, The Ministry Of Lost Souls, In The Presence Of Enemies 1 & 2, A Nightmare To Remember, Wither, The Shattered Fortress, The Count Of Tuscany, On The Backs Of Angels, Lost Not Forgotten, Far From Heaven, Breaking All Illusions, The Bigger Picture, Surrender To Reason, and Illumination Theory as examples of songs I'd put above it.

[pg1067]

The Enemy Inside is the best song DT have done since Octavarium.

Hmmm...counting ITPOE as a single song and excluding NOMAC tracks, I believe they've released 69 songs on the six albums since 8VM.

For me, The Enemy Inside probably comes in around 20-25 of those 69 songs (and significantly lower when you consider all DT songs).  Heck, it's no better than the #4 song on its own album.

By way of reference, in the recent album tournament, it came in at #5 and lost in the first round to the #4 song (The Bigger Picture) by an 18-16 vote.  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=54489.0

In the overall tournament, TEI finished tied for 69th place with an 18-15-2 record.  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=53461.msg2600586#msg2600586

[Max Kuehnau]

Ok this technically isn't an opinion I'm "entitled" to have (since I'm not a guitarist), but I do: My personal favourite guitar tones that JP had were Met2, ADTOE, DT12 and The Astonishing (some on D/T as well though), so not I/W or Awake (although I mostly like his parts on most albums, both the ones I mentioned and didn't mention.)

Another one: I prefer The Silent Man entirely acoustically.

[Indiscipline]

Ok this technically isn't an opinion I'm "entitled" to have (since I'm not a guitarist), but I do: My personal favourite guitar tones that JP had were Met2, ADTOE, DT12 and The Astonishing (some on D/T as well though), so not I/W or Awake (although I mostly like his parts on most albums)

You have ears, you are entitled to have whatever opinion you like.

[pg1067]

Ok this technically isn't an opinion I'm "entitled" to have (since I'm not a guitarist), but I do: My personal favourite guitar tones that JP had were Met2, ADTOE, DT12 and The Astonishing (some on D/T as well though), so not I/W or Awake (although I mostly like his parts on most albums, both the ones I mentioned and didn't mention.)

Indiscipline beat me to the punch, but you don't have to be a guitarist to have valid opinions about guitar tone.  In fact, I just wrote in another thread that one of the reasons I don't like Megadeath is because of the guitar tone on the songs I've heard.  I've also said many times in this and other forums that Alex Lifeson's guitar tone is one of the many things that makes Grace Under Pressure a substandard album.

I would say JP's best tones can be found on a single song:  A Change of Seasons -- in particular, the part starting at 11:30, and even more particularly at 11:54.  The diversity of tones on that song is staggering, and pretty much every one has depth and character.  I would say that, in general, his tones since Systematic Chaos have been relatively generic.

[Max Kuehnau]

Ok this technically isn't an opinion I'm "entitled" to have (since I'm not a guitarist), but I do: My personal favourite guitar tones that JP had were Met2, ADTOE, DT12 and The Astonishing (some on D/T as well though), so not I/W or Awake (although I mostly like his parts on most albums, both the ones I mentioned and didn't mention.)

Indiscipline beat me to the punch, but you don't have to be a guitarist to have valid opinions about guitar tone.  In fact, I just wrote in another thread that one of the reasons I don't like Megadeath is because of the guitar tone on the songs I've heard.  I've also said many times in this and other forums that Alex Lifeson's guitar tone is one of the many things that makes Grace Under Pressure a substandard album.

I would say JP's best tones can be found on a single song:  A Change of Seasons -- in particular, the part starting at 11:30, and even more particularly at 11:54.  The diversity of tones on that song is staggering, and pretty much every one has depth and character.  I would say that, in general, his tones since Systematic Chaos have been relatively generic.

yeah that's great too in that respect (of course, and it has been even more so when I saw them play it live twice), I wanted to include it originally. Simply forgot about it.

[Trav86]

While I think the last four albums are all great, I don't think anything DT has released since 2000 stands up to anything from pre-2000.

[TAC]

While I think the last four albums are all great, I don't think anything DT has released since 2000 stands up to anything from pre-2000.

I can think of at least 9 albums post 2000 that I would take over FII.

[pg1067]

While I think the last four albums are all great, I don't think anything DT has released since 2000 stands up to anything from pre-2000.

So...albums like SDOIT and Octavarium don't "stand up to" WDADU?

While I think the last four albums are all great, I don't think anything DT has released since 2000 stands up to anything from pre-2000.

I can think of at least 9 7 albums post 2000 that I would take over either WDADU or FII.

Fixed for me.

[Trav86]

In my personal (controversial) opinion, I like WDADU more than SDOIT and 8V.

[TAC]

In my personal (controversial) opinion, I like WDADU more than SDOIT and 8V.

So do I.

[JiM-Xtreme]

I find WDADU to be very underrated generally. But I wouldn't go as far as you guys on this one 

[Northern Lion]

I'm not a big fan of the original WDaDU.  However, the reunite version is awesome!  I recently compared the singing performances between Dominici and Labrie and I was amazed at the difference.  To me, Labrie has a lot more variety and texture to his singing style which elevated the songs dramatically.

[TAC]

I'm not a big fan of the original WDaDU.  However, the reunite version is awesome!  I recently compared the singing performances between Dominici and Labrie and I was amazed at the difference.  To me, Labrie has a lot more variety and texture to his singing style which elevated the songs dramatically.

Totally agree. I consider WDADRu a top DT album. I love those songs. And the original has its charm too.  The Score version of Afterlife is incredible.

[DTA]

I like Charlie better than James on WDADU songs - even I&W-era LaBrie. His voice just fits the music perfectly and (not counting the weird high note in TKH) he does a great job.

[Trav86]

I like Charlie better than James on WDADU songs - even I&W-era LaBrie. His voice just fits the music perfectly and (not counting the weird high note in TKH) he does a great job.

I'm with you on this. I don't mind hearing James singing them during the IW tour. I especially love Another Hand/The Killing Hand, but I prefer the original versions of all of those songs. I've never been bothered by the production and all of that like most people complain about. And while I prefer James as a vocalist, those songs sound weird without Charlie's quirky vocal inflections in certain places. As for the 2004 WDADRU thing...no thanks. James wasn't exactly having his best night and Jordan messes around with the parts too much. I've never been a fan of that one.

[Northern Lion]

I like Charlie better than James on WDADU songs - even I&W-era LaBrie. His voice just fits the music perfectly and (not counting the weird high note in TKH) he does a great job.

I'm with you on this. I don't mind hearing James singing them during the IW tour. I especially love Another Hand/The Killing Hand, but I prefer the original versions of all of those songs. I've never been bothered by the production and all of that like most people complain about. And while I prefer James as a vocalist, those songs sound weird without Charlie's quirky vocal inflections in certain places. As for the 2004 WDADRU thing...no thanks. James wasn't exactly having his best night and Jordan messes around with the parts too much. I've never been a fan of that one.

I agree with you, production doesn't really matter to me all that much, unless it's a really BAD one.

Really?  I thought James knocked it out of the park.  To my ear, he sounds in tune and all around fantastic.  But my ears are probably not the best judge of sound quality anyway.  Too much Metallica for too long.

[Trav86]

I could be remembering it wrong. I haven't listened to it since it was new. So like...15 years? 

[pg1067]

I like Charlie better than James on WDADU songs - even I&W-era LaBrie. His voice just fits the music perfectly and (not counting the weird high note in TKH) he does a great job.

I'm with you on this. I don't mind hearing James singing them during the IW tour. I especially love Another Hand/The Killing Hand, but I prefer the original versions of all of those songs. I've never been bothered by the production and all of that like most people complain about. And while I prefer James as a vocalist, those songs sound weird without Charlie's quirky vocal inflections in certain places. As for the 2004 WDADRU thing...no thanks. James wasn't exactly having his best night and Jordan messes around with the parts too much. I've never been a fan of that one.

I'm mostly on board with this.  The live version of Another Hand/TKH on Live at the Marquee is the definitive recording of that song.  Otherwise, give me the WDADU recordings.

As for WDADRu, I own it on DVD but not CD.  I enjoy it and watch it now and then and don't really have a problem with James's performance (or whatever changes JR might have made to KM's parts).  If I had it on CD, I probably wouldn't listen to it much.  The best thing about the DVD is the band commentary track -- particularly when JR noted that so many of JM's bass lines were very sad sounding and he asked with a genuinely concerned tone to his voice:  "Were you ok back then?"

[Trav86]

And also some of that very interesting conversation between JM and MP which revealed that maybe not everyone was on the same page in the band.

[Evai]

The sad bass lines comment is from Live In Tokyo though. I've never heard the WDADRu commentary

[pg1067]

And also some of that very interesting conversation between JM and MP which revealed that maybe not everyone was on the same page in the band.

I took that more as MP being snarky toward JM.  And, interestingly, the way that they wrote and recorded DOT was pretty much exactly what JM was wistfully longing for in that discussion.  Of course, whereas they all had fairly young children back then, I think all of their kids are now adults.

The sad bass lines comment is from Live In Tokyo though. I've never heard the WDADRu commentary

Hmmm....  It's possible I'm mixing them up, but I'm pretty sure it's in WDADRu (even if it's also in LIT).

[KevShmev]

I like Charlie better than James on WDADU songs - even I&W-era LaBrie. His voice just fits the music perfectly and (not counting the weird high note in TKH) he does a great job.

I'm with you on this. I don't mind hearing James singing them during the IW tour. I especially love Another Hand/The Killing Hand, but I prefer the original versions of all of those songs. I've never been bothered by the production and all of that like most people complain about. And while I prefer James as a vocalist, those songs sound weird without Charlie's quirky vocal inflections in certain places. As for the 2004 WDADRU thing...no thanks. James wasn't exactly having his best night and Jordan messes around with the parts too much. I've never been a fan of that one.

Agreed, on both accounts, especially the second.  Jordan overplaying some of Kevin Moore's keyboard parts ruined much of the WDADR experience for me.

[bosk1]

Your wording is a bit confusing.  But I agree that Jordan took Moore's boring, pedestrian parts and elevated them considerably to take them from barely palatable to stellar.

[KevShmev]

Not taking the bait.

Go fish elsewhere.

[bosk1]

Drat.

[Evai]

Now there's a quote!

[Max Kuehnau]

Your wording is a bit confusing.  But I agree that Jordan took Moore's boring, pedestrian parts and elevated them considerably to take them from barely palatable to stellar.

Thanks mate, I fully agree.

(this actually was what I always thought when James, Jordan and Mike respectively came on board btw, them each elevating the music. When I heard Jordan play the I/W material for the first time, I never went back to listening to Kevin Moore, as one example. As with Mike and James.)

[Madman Shepherd]

In my personal (controversial) opinion, I like WDADU more than SDOIT and 8V.

I would maybe put it on par with 8V, behind disc 1 of SDOIT and well above disc 2

[LCArenas]

I don't know if this is actually controversial, but Score might be one of the best live albums ever made. At least top Rock/Metal albums ever made, that's for sure

[pg1067]

I don't know if this is actually controversial, but Score might be one of the best live albums ever made. At least top Rock/Metal albums ever made, that's for sure

I own the DVD but not the CD of Score.  The part with the orchestra is AWESOME, and that's as long as a lot of bands' full concerts.  "The Score So Far" is a really good documentary, and it's cool to have the Octavarium animation.

The rest of of, however, is very "meh" (at best).

The Root of All Evil is a good song and show opener.

IWBY is probably the worst song on 8VM

Another Won is fine for what it is.

UAGM is my least favorite or second least favorite song on I&W.

Innocence Faded is my least or second least favorite song on Awake.

Raise the Knife is a bleh song that didn't make the cut for a bottom 2-3 DT album.

TSCO is a good live song, but it's way better in the context of the full SFAM show that we have on LSFNY.

And the bonus songs aren't any better.

If UAGM isn't my least favorite song on I&W, Another Day is.

The Great Debate is a bottom 5 DT song.

Honor Thy Father is the worst song on TOT by a pretty wide margin.

Given the structure of the part of the set without the orchestra, they would have been hard-pressed to put together a set that I liked less.  Fortunately, everything else on the DVD makes it great in spite of that.

[hefdaddy42]

^agree to disagree on the quality of the first set of SCORE^

[TheCountOfNYC]

^agree to disagree on the quality of the first set of SCORE^

I think the first set is great but I also think there were better choices for everything except the Majesty Demos and Scenes From a Memory. My personal setlist would have looked like...

The Root of All Evil
These Walls
Another Won
Afterlife
Take the Time
Lifting Shadows off a Dream
Lines in the Sand
The Spirit Carries On

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Vacant
Stream of Consciousness
The Answer Lies Within
Sacrificed Sons
Octavarium

A Change of Seasons

[pg1067]

I think Bosk did a thread about the Score set list a while back.

[Elite]

I don't know if this is actually controversial, but Score might be one of the best live albums ever made. At least top Rock/Metal albums ever made, that's for sure

Statement based on how many live albums you've heard in full?

The Enemy Inside is the best song DT have done since Octavarium.

Hmmm...counting ITPOE as a single song and excluding NOMAC tracks, I believe they've released 69 songs on the six albums since 8VM.

For me, The Enemy Inside probably comes in around 20-25 of those 69 songs (and significantly lower when you consider all DT songs).  Heck, it's no better than the #4 song on its own album.

By way of reference, in the recent album tournament, it came in at #5 and lost in the first round to the #4 song (The Bigger Picture) by an 18-16 vote.  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=54489.0

In the overall tournament, TEI finished tied for 69th place with an 18-15-2 record.  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=53461.msg2600586#msg2600586

Okay, that's fine and all. Apparently the majority (at least those who vote in the DT League) disagrees with me - hence me posting it in the controversial opinions thread.