Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[pg1067]

But for me, it's so hard to pick a "least favorite 3-album run" anyway.

Well...there are 12 possible three album runs, and only two of those include two of my bottom five albums (WDADU, FII, SC, BC&SL and TA), and any three album run that includes WDADU or FII also includes two top five albums, so that leaves the following possibilities for me:

- 8VA, SC and BC&SL
- SC, BC&SL and ADTOE

Given those possibilities, and since, for me, 8VA > ADTOE, the run of SC, BC&SL and ADTOE has to rank as my least favorite three album run, even though I quite like ADTOE.

Derek was always a step down for the band.

Concur (if not in intent, then certainly in result).

[Setlist Scotty]

While that is true, I don't think Derek would have gotten the axe had Rudess not agreed to join. Then again, the band was viewing their next album (that would become Scenes from a Memory) as make or break, so who knows if they would have felt the need to shake things up on what could have been their swan song.

Actually, I fully agree with you. Likely they would've kept DS had JR not made himself available. And given that album #5 was going to be make or break with them, I can't imagine they would've kicked DS to the curb for another keyboard player that they hadn't worked with previously (with the concern over personality conflicts, musical chemistry, etc.) But since they already had worked with JR on the 2 LTE albums, as well as the fact that his style was more in line with what they wanted to do with DT, they were willing to make the move.

[MirrorMask]

After all, didn't Mike put it like "it's not what was wrong with Derek, but what was right with Jordan"? I think the issue wasn't "we have to get rid of Derek, let's see who can replace him", but rather "Hey, Jordan's available, should we change the keyboard player?"

[MoraWintersoul]

Given those possibilities, and since, for me, 8VA > ADTOE, the run of SC, BC&SL and ADTOE has to rank as my least favorite three album run, even though I quite like ADTOE.

Same. I mean, I wouldn't say I *quite* like ADTOE, it's probably still near the bottom half for me (SC and BCSL occupy the very bottom). It's a good album in the trademark "new" DT style, it has an equal balance of dark and light, prog and metal, epicness and brevity. It's just that on 8VM these ~mandatory elements~ pleased my ears a little more: the prog was a touch more playful, the metal was more natural, the lightness was poppier and snappier, the piano ballady bits were more ethereal.

Of course, ADTOE has Breaking All Illusions, and 8VM has nothing of the sort. But that's just one part of the album.

[pg1067]

After all, didn't Mike put it like "it's not what was wrong with Derek, but what was right with Jordan"? I think the issue wasn't "we have to get rid of Derek, let's see who can replace him", but rather "Hey, Jordan's available, should we change the keyboard player?"

Pretty much.  As Mora pointed out on the last page, JR was the first choice to replace KM (he was the keyboard player for the band's first live performance post-KM), and the only went with DS when JR didn't take the gig.  When JR decided to take the gig a few years later, I suspect it was simply a matter of whether DS had done enough to make the other guys want to keep him over getting the guy who was their original fist choice.

[gzarruk]

In fact...when listening to live performances during his time in the band that's some of the 'sloppiest' performances you can find. (using the term loosley as even a sloppy DT performance is better than most) IMO that's the period of time where they weren't their tightest by any means. Many circumstances play into that....including MP's addictions....but nonetheless Derek's era in DT is my least favorite personally.

I agree. This is, probably, my least favorite live DT era, and it's mostly because of this (and that they played A LOT of unnecesary covers even though they had a big enough catalog already to play originals only, not to mention the abridged versions of some of their classics). Just listening to the OIALT album or other bootlegs from the era, the instrumental sections sound odd, some were even played slower and just didn't sound right. I think Derek did a better job on the Awake tour, tho (again, judging by bootlegs and stuff like that), not sure why's that.

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

Back in 98', I went to a friend's house and he had LTE..Just when Paradigm Shift played I thought that JR was at that time the most technical/progressive keyboardist I've ever heard..I mean there was Matt Guillory and Derek Sherinian (I'm mentioning all the American based keyboardists)..but JR was really an upcoming force back then..
MP and JP (and I'm guessing JP more) wanted a writing partner that would help them transfer the writing chemistry that they've had with LTE to DT..
The fact is that as MP has mentioned that they wanted a change of character with hiring JR. DS was amidst some of the toughest years the band has ever faced..back then I was annoyed that the keyboard parts he played didn't sound close as the authentic ones..but Derek was a different player, another beast on his own IMO. Very powerful keyboard player, always in the pocket, and focused on songs..When they fired him his reaction was Planet X..I was blown away by those records and although it was something like an emotional release for him..he could have easily write the progressive parts that the band wanted for an upcoming do or die record that SFAM was...

[gzarruk]

When they fired him his reaction was Planet X..I was blown away by those records and although it was something like an emotional release for him..he could have easily write the progressive parts that the band wanted for an upcoming do or die record that SFAM was...

While this is mostly true, let's not forget that Donati was the main writer for Planet X, not Derek. And Derek is on record saying he didn't enjoy PX music that much anyway. Even his solo albums, which have some really good tracks among them, feature multiple co-writers like Simon Phillips.

[JayOctavarium]

I am very thankful for WADARU

When A Derek And Rudess Unite?

I mean...

It's accurate....

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

When they fired him his reaction was Planet X..I was blown away by those records and although it was something like an emotional release for him..he could have easily write the progressive parts that the band wanted for an upcoming do or die record that SFAM was...

While this is mostly true, let's not forget that Donati was the main writer for Planet X, not Derek. And Derek is on record saying he didn't enjoy PX music that much anyway. Even his solo albums, which have some really good tracks among them, feature multiple co-writers like Simon Phillips.

It's true that Derek didn't enjoy playing Planet X's music but only because it became more and more complicated over the years..also Virgil for sure was one of the main writers..Planet X is mainly their band, many of the riffs that Derek wrote were actually drum parts that Virgil was sending to Derek..The thing is JR is more complete as a composer and simply another musical mind than Derek..Derek likes to take what's best from guest musicians for his solo albums for example and write music..
All and all for me there is no comparison, Jordan Rudess was and still is the best option for Dream Theater..but the story so far leaves me with a sour taste 'cause over the years I really appreciated Derek's keyboard approach and still question what might have been if he actually stayed for a while!

[nikatapi]

I think there is no valid comparison between DS and JR, both are great in their own way.
Derek has a more rock background, and that comes out in his music, sounds and way of playing. I still love some of his parts on Metropolis pt.2 demos, very alien and different sounding. He had (and has) more edge to his sound, he is more restrained and more limited in sound range.

JR is a wizard when in comes to tech, coming up with new sounds, but he has also a classical background, more prog-oriented and he doesn't try to restrain his playing, sometimes overdoing it in my opinion. But if you take the LTE albums and compare them to Octavarium, you can see how much of an amazing composer and sound designer he is. He has an incredible taste in sounds and given the proper setup, he can create amazing things. He sometimes can become a bit cheesy but still i love his playing. I think Octavarium and The Astonishing are his best albums with DT.

Still, KM is my favorite even though he might be the least diverse in terms of sounds 

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

I think there is no valid comparison between DS and JR, both are great in their own way.
Derek has a more rock background, and that comes out in his music, sounds and way of playing. I still love some of his parts on Metropolis pt.2 demos, very alien and different sounding. He had (and has) more edge to his sound, he is more restrained and more limited in sound range.

JR is a wizard when in comes to tech, coming up with new sounds, but he has also a classical background, more prog-oriented and he doesn't try to restrain his playing, sometimes overdoing it in my opinion. But if you take the LTE albums and compare them to Octavarium, you can see how much of an amazing composer and sound designer he is. He has an incredible taste in sounds and given the proper setup, he can create amazing things. He sometimes can become a bit cheesy but still i love his playing. I think Octavarium and The Astonishing are his best albums with DT.

Still, KM is my favorite even though he might be the least diverse in terms of sounds 

Very good points there nikatapi! Especially about JR..he's really a sound wizard, an excellent virtuoso and a very complete musician..
Some thoughts about KM..his tones and contributions where awesome, especially on I&W and Awake..being so different albums and taking in account of what was going on in the band back then..he didn't enjoy writing with the band anymore during the Awake..besides he even recorded his keyboard parts and just handed over them to the rest..no questions asked! But what a great player and a master of avant-garde keyboard playing, with his use of samples, hunting effects and great sounds..not to mention a great lyricists too!

[RodrigoAltaf]

Planet X wasn't a reaction from Derek to being let go of DT. That album was commissioned to him by Mike Varney from Magna Carta while he was still in the band.

[Herrick]

I like Planet X and some of Sherinian's solo stuff. It would've been cool if he had made a full-on prog album with DT.

[Setlist Scotty]

Some thoughts about KM..his tones and contributions where awesome, especially on I&W and Awake..being so different albums and taking the account of what was going on in the band back then..he didn't enjoy writing with the band anymore during the Awake..besides he even recorded his keyboard parts and just handed over them to the rest..no questions asked!

What do you mean by that? I've never heard anything to suggest that he recorded his keyboard parts and handed them over to the rest of the band, even though he was already losing interest in DT's style of music. How do you know that he wasn't willing to accept any input from the rest of the band? Got a source to back that up?

[lovethedrake]

Worst 3 album stretch IMO is:

SC, BC&SL, ADTOE 

Best 3 album stretch is:

FII, SFAM, SDOIT

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

Some thoughts about KM..his tones and contributions where awesome, especially on I&W and Awake..being so different albums and taking the account of what was going on in the band back then..he didn't enjoy writing with the band anymore during the Awake..besides he even recorded his keyboard parts and just handed over them to the rest..no questions asked!

What do you mean by that? I've never heard anything to suggest that he recorded his keyboard parts and handed them over to the rest of the band, even though he was already losing interest in DT's style of music. How do you know that he wasn't willing to accept any input from the rest of the band? Got a source to back that up?

MP actually stated that on the notes in the Awake Demos from Ytje Jam..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gspx9riVycw fast forward to 1:10..right page, middle column..you're welcome!

[KevShmev]

Some thoughts about KM..his tones and contributions where awesome, especially on I&W and Awake..being so different albums and taking the account of what was going on in the band back then..he didn't enjoy writing with the band anymore during the Awake..besides he even recorded his keyboard parts and just handed over them to the rest..no questions asked!

What do you mean by that? I've never heard anything to suggest that he recorded his keyboard parts and handed them over to the rest of the band, even though he was already losing interest in DT's style of music. How do you know that he wasn't willing to accept any input from the rest of the band? Got a source to back that up?

MP actually stated that on the notes in the Awake Demos from Ytje Jam..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gspx9riVycw fast forward to 1:10..right page, middle column..you're welcome!

Not to answer for Scotty, but you twisted the words around big time to come to your above conclusion.

[Herrick]

Some thoughts about KM..his tones and contributions where awesome, especially on I&W and Awake..being so different albums and taking the account of what was going on in the band back then..he didn't enjoy writing with the band anymore during the Awake..besides he even recorded his keyboard parts and just handed over them to the rest..no questions asked!

What do you mean by that? I've never heard anything to suggest that he recorded his keyboard parts and handed them over to the rest of the band, even though he was already losing interest in DT's style of music. How do you know that he wasn't willing to accept any input from the rest of the band? Got a source to back that up?

MP actually stated that on the notes in the Awake Demos from Ytje Jam..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gspx9riVycw fast forward to 1:10..right page, middle column..you're welcome!

Not to answer for Scotty, but you twisted the words around big time to come to your above conclusion.

Well maybe IgnotusPerIgnotium unintentionally mixed his words a bit but his main point is still correct (according to Portnoy's writings in that link). Moore didn't enjoy writing with the band and came into the studio with his parts already written.

[bosk1]

Not ALL of his parts.  According to what Mike wrote, that pertained to the pieces he mostly wrote (6:00 and SDV) and to his solos. 

[Herrick]

Not ALL of his parts.  According to what Mike wrote, that pertained to the pieces he mostly wrote (6:00 and SDV) and to his solos.

True. I should've said "all the parts he wrote himself".

[MoraWintersoul]

I have always wanted to hear that demo of Lie Mike is talking about (the passage that comes up at 53ish mins on that video). Lie already sounds like a proto-OSI song to me, to hear it with KM's vocals would be beyond cool.

[Setlist Scotty]

MP actually stated that on the notes in the Awake Demos from Ytje Jam..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gspx9riVycw fast forward to 1:10..right page, middle column..you're welcome!

It's been a long time since I've read the liner notes to the Awake demos, so I *did* forget MP's comment that he refused to write or record his solos with anyone else present. But as others have pointed out, you are reading way more into it than what was stated.

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

MP actually stated that on the notes in the Awake Demos from Ytje Jam..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gspx9riVycw fast forward to 1:10..right page, middle column..you're welcome!

It's been a long time since I've read the liner notes to the Awake demos, so I *did* forget MP's comment that he refused to write or record his solos with anyone else present. But as others have pointed out, you are reading way more into it than what was stated.

Yeah me too, I didn't want to be misunderstood or anything just trying to make a point about the tensions within the band at that period! Glad that it was clarified by the other fellows above!

[gmillerdrake]

Don't know how 'controversial' this is but, I wish/hope that the next DT tour contains zero 'anniversary' songs/ideas and is nothing but MM era songs. I think the catalog of MM era songs is strong, full of great music and it's time to showcase those prominently.

I've noticed in the 4x I've seen DT now with MM that when he's playing 'his' songs he is entirely more charismatic and 'fun' and fluid and 'on' than he is when performing the MP era stuff. He gets the job done quite well on them....BUT....when he's playing his stuff there's a noticeable difference to me.

I'd love to see a tour dedicated to just MM era music.

[hefdaddy42]

I'd love to see a tour dedicated to just MM era music.

I don't think that will ever happen.

[RodrigoAltaf]

I'd love to see a tour dedicated to just MM era music.

I don't think that will ever happen.

That has already happened, on the first leg of The Astonishing. Don't think it worked quite well.

[MirrorMask]

I remember making a thread about it some time ago, how would people feel if the entire set would be dedicated to the Mangini era songs, with the older ones being reserved only in the encore.

[gmillerdrake]

I'd love to see a tour dedicated to just MM era music.

I don't think that will ever happen.

That has already happened, on the first leg of The Astonishing. Don't think it worked quite well.

Well, technically 'yes'....but it was only Astonishing songs. AND....it was incredible to see live....especially watching/listening to MM. In fact, it may be the single best showcase of what MM is capable of because he's unreal on that album. He demonstrates how constant practice and dedication to improving your skills can lead to an awesome product because he's untouchable in it.

While I agree with Hef that I don't think it'll ever happen....I'd still love to see an all MM era song tour. I think it'd be awesome.

[RodrigoAltaf]

I'm with you on the "non-anniversary" setlist, and I'd add that I'd love to see a setlist without an album being played in full. The current tour is the third one where an album is played in its entirety, and I'd love to get a little bit more variety on a set of stand alone songs for a change. But all MM era songs...no thanks.

[Herrick]

I wouldn't mind half & half: pre-Mangini songs & songs from the last 4 albums.

[Ben_Jamin]

I'd love to see a tour dedicated to just MM era music.

I don't think that will ever happen.

That has already happened, on the first leg of The Astonishing. Don't think it worked quite well.

Well, technically 'yes'....but it was only Astonishing songs. AND....it was incredible to see live....especially watching/listening to MM. In fact, it may be the single best showcase of what MM is capable of because he's unreal on that album. He demonstrates how constant practice and dedication to improving your skills can lead to an awesome product because he's untouchable in it.

While I agree with Hef that I don't think it'll ever happen....I'd still love to see an all MM era song tour. I think it'd be awesome.

I wouldn't mind that after their next album.

[Max Kuehnau]

Mike should have used his "standard sized" large kit for the recording of D/T, he unneccessarily limited himself in that respect (or rather: I don't understand why he did it)

[Northern Lion]

Least favorite album stretch

WDaDU
I&W
Awake

I certainly don't hate these albums at all, and there are songs on each one that I like quite a bit, but they are the three I listen to the least, mostly because they sound dated to me.

Favorite stretch

FII
SFaM
SDoIT

FII is not in my top 5 but it rates higher for me than ToT by just a little.  And the other two are always in my top 5.

And an MM era tour would be excellent but probably not realistic.

[Revenge319]

Well, here we go. I've been a fan for about 3 years, but I'm new to this site. Please don't shun me too much for what I'm about to say.



Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs. My bottom 15 also includes Lie, Peruvian Skies, and (at the very bottom) Honor Thy Father.
Black Clouds and Silver Linings is one of Dream Theater's best albums (my personal favorite, although I think SDoIT is Dream Theater's best effort).
Burning My Soul is a pretty good song.
Enigma Machine is one of the best DT instrumentals.
I prefer The Astonishing to every 90's DT album (except SFAM).
The Answer Lies Within and Build Me Up, Break Me Down deserve more love.
A Rite of Passage is WAY better than people make it out to be.
The Count of Tuscany has great lyrics; I really cannot see anything wrong with them.