Your Controversial Opinions on DT

Started by Lucidity, December 17, 2012, 07:28:25 PM

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Mladen

Well, it's not like the rest of the band came forward praising it. Not a single band member has talked about it in the last ten years. I think JP might like it, JLB and JM are most likely indifferent toward the song, and JR and MM have nothing to do with it. Some of the B-sides from Falling into infinity have a better chance of returning to the set list than You not me.

ReaperKK

So you're saying You Or Me is gonna come back?

DTA

Quote from: ReaperKK on October 06, 2019, 09:01:42 AM
So you're saying You Or Me is gonna come back?

At this point, You Or Me is the ultimate DT live rarity now that DLPM has been played but I doubt the band even remembers it exists

Volante99

Ah yes, "You Not Me" with the Desmond Child sing-a-long chorus that helped *almost* kill any momentum the band had going dead in its tracks, hated by both the band and the fans alike, its only redeeming quality is that it refocused the band to move away from 90s alternative dreck and back to prog greatness with SFAM. 

Yeah...probably not going to show up on a setlist anytime soon.

DoctorAction


Northern Lion

Quote from: DTA on October 06, 2019, 10:11:41 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on October 06, 2019, 09:01:42 AM
So you're saying You Or Me is gonna come back?

At this point, You Or Me is the ultimate DT live rarity now that DLPM has been played but I doubt the band even remembers it exists

I really like "You or Me" a lot, but like many, I don't listen to "You not Me" at all.  In fact I think this is the only DT song that I never listen to.

However, if this is the kind of song that floats your boat, I think that is awesome and more power to you.

NoFred

I didn't know enough then and I don't know enough now... just let me breathe is a masterpiece the likes viper king wishes it could be :)

Max Kuehnau

Quote from: NoFred on October 06, 2019, 07:39:10 PM
I didn’t know enough then and I don’t know enough now... just let me breathe is a masterpiece the likes viper king wishes it could be :)
they're both as non-DT as can be though IMHO (and I don't listen to either of them), but considering your opinion (which I respect), they both are "masterpieces", masterpieces at not being typical DT pieces if you get my drift

DTA

Quote from: Northern Lion on October 06, 2019, 07:26:28 PM
Quote from: DTA on October 06, 2019, 10:11:41 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on October 06, 2019, 09:01:42 AM
So you're saying You Or Me is gonna come back?

At this point, You Or Me is the ultimate DT live rarity now that DLPM has been played but I doubt the band even remembers it exists

I really like "You or Me" a lot, but like many, I don't listen to "You not Me" at all.  In fact I think this is the only DT song that I never listen to.

However, if this is the kind of song that floats your boat, I think that is awesome and more power to you.

I'm the opposite. I think YNM is an excellent hard rock song while YOM is very unremarkable. There's no wasted space in YNM while YOM has some unnecessary parts. Plus the chorus on Not is way better.

MirrorMask

Quote from: DTA on October 07, 2019, 05:10:37 AM
Plus the chorus on Not is way better.

AKA "the reason they got Desmond Child in the first place".

NoFred

Quote from: Max Kuehnau on October 07, 2019, 02:30:48 AM
Quote from: NoFred on October 06, 2019, 07:39:10 PM
I didn't know enough then and I don't know enough now... just let me breathe is a masterpiece the likes viper king wishes it could be :)
they're both as non-DT as can be though IMHO (and I don't listen to either of them), but considering your opinion (which I respect), they both are "masterpieces", masterpieces at not being typical DT pieces if you get my drift
Lol yeah being non-DT was the "masterpiece" qualifier there, and between the two I like JLMB by a wide margin.

Trav86

Quote from: Volante99 on October 06, 2019, 11:20:54 AM
Ah yes, "You Not Me" with the Desmond Child sing-a-long chorus that helped *almost* kill any momentum the band had going dead in its tracks, hated by both the band and the fans alike, its only redeeming quality is that it refocused the band to move away from 90s alternative dreck and back to prog greatness with SFAM. 

Yeah...probably not going to show up on a setlist anytime soon.

Hence the "controversial opinion"

gzarruk

I don't find YNM as bad as some people say it is, it just isn't a very good song compared to the rest of the catalog (and this applies to most of FII anyway). Whether it should be included back on the setlists or not, I think not. Just listen to the few live versions available online and James sounds like he 's having a hard time with it.

Trav86

Quote from: gzarruk on October 07, 2019, 06:04:32 AM
I don't find YNM as bad as some people say it is, it just isn't a very good song compared to the rest of the catalog (and this applies to most of FII anyway). Whether it should be included back on the setlists or not, I think not. Just listen to the few live versions available online and James sounds like he 's having a hard time with it.

During a time when he was struggling with a lot of songs.

bosk1

Quote from: DTA on October 06, 2019, 07:27:26 AMGets a bad rap from fans all because MP doesn't like it.

No, it gets a bad rap from fans because most fans don't like it.

But if we're talking about "obscure" songs from the band's earlier days making a live comeback, I'd like to see Burning My Soul.  One of my least favorites from FII, but I've long felt that it would be great in a live setting.

Max Kuehnau

Quote from: bosk1 on October 07, 2019, 06:54:22 AM
Quote from: DTA on October 06, 2019, 07:27:26 AMGets a bad rap from fans all because MP doesn't like it.

No, it gets a bad rap from fans because most fans don't like it.

But if we're talking about "obscure" songs from the band's earlier days making a live comeback, I'd like to see Burning My Soul.  One of my least favorites from FII, but I've long felt that it would be great in a live setting.
I actually heard BMS live during one of the concerts I attended on the 6D tour in 2002 (can't remember which one, but it was the "pre-excised" version, meaning what we now know as Hell's Kitchen was actually part of the piece making it 10 minutes long or thereabouts) I've never heard them play You Not Me live (and I've seen them 9 times so far, 3 times with MM, 6 times with MP)

Ruba

Quote from: bosk1 on October 07, 2019, 06:54:22 AM
Quote from: DTA on October 06, 2019, 07:27:26 AMGets a bad rap from fans all because MP doesn't like it.

No, it gets a bad rap from fans because most fans don't like it.

But if we're talking about "obscure" songs from the band's earlier days making a live comeback, I'd like to see Burning My Soul.  One of my least favorites from FII, but I've long felt that it would be great in a live setting.

It was played on the 30th anniversary tour so not that long ago. I saw them play it and I would've been really surprised to see it, but a friend I went to the show with spoiled that beforehand. I actually like the song, but I would've preferred them playing Lines in the Sand by a large margin.

hefdaddy42

Not sure that it's controversial, but John Myung definitely doesn't play his fretless bass or the Chapman Stick on nearly enough songs, and they should both be incorporated on the next album.

I told him that, too.  Which means nothing will come of it lol
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 11, 2014, 08:19:46 PMHef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

pg1067

Quote from: DTA on October 07, 2019, 05:10:37 AM
Quote from: Northern Lion on October 06, 2019, 07:26:28 PM
Quote from: DTA on October 06, 2019, 10:11:41 AM
Quote from: ReaperKK on October 06, 2019, 09:01:42 AM
So you're saying You Or Me is gonna come back?

At this point, You Or Me is the ultimate DT live rarity now that DLPM has been played but I doubt the band even remembers it exists

I really like "You or Me" a lot, but like many, I don't listen to "You not Me" at all.  In fact I think this is the only DT song that I never listen to.

However, if this is the kind of song that floats your boat, I think that is awesome and more power to you.

I'm the opposite. I think YNM is an excellent hard rock song while YOM is very unremarkable. There's no wasted space in YNM while YOM has some unnecessary parts. Plus the chorus on Not is way better.

I think YNM is vastly superior to YOM.  I also YNM isn't even close to DT's worst song.  IMO, it's in the top half of songs on FII.  That said, of the 36 DT album tracks I've yet to hear live, YNM isn't particular high on the list of those I'd like to hear.

In fact, of the songs I haven't heard live (and excluding those on DOT), the only ones I really hope will end up in a set list some day are Anna Lee, most of SDOIT (I've only heard SS, ATCR and LT/GF), Vacant and Wither.

lovethedrake

IMO the songs that DT has released that I consider to be "beneath them":

You Not Me
Burning My soul
Just let me breathe
I walk beside you
Build me up break me down
Hymn of a Thousand Voices

So count me in the "please never play you not me because it's one of your worst songs" category.


TAC

Hymn Of A Thousand Voices is really, good. It closes my Astonishing Abridged CD.
Quote from: wkiml on June 08, 2012, 09:06:35 AMwould have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on April 22, 2023, 05:54:45 PMTAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

gzarruk

Quote from: TAC on October 07, 2019, 01:10:49 PM
Hymn Of A Thousand Voices is really, good. It closes my Astonishing Abridged CD.

If you don't have ONW closing an abridged version of TA, you're doing it wrong :P

TAC

Quote from: gzarruk on October 07, 2019, 03:01:32 PM
Quote from: TAC on October 07, 2019, 01:10:49 PM
Hymn Of A Thousand Voices is really, good. It closes my Astonishing Abridged CD.

If you don't have ONW closing an abridged version of TA, you're doing it wrong :P

I don't. It ends better with Hymn. The whole point of making an Abridged version was to trim the fat.

Our New World doesn't even feel like part of the story. Having Our New World close The Astonishing is like having Viper King come on after PBD.
Quote from: wkiml on June 08, 2012, 09:06:35 AMwould have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on April 22, 2023, 05:54:45 PMTAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

bosk1

No, it's not quite that awesome.  But it is still pretty good.

TAC

Well my point was that both songs feel totally unrelated musically to what comes before it.

And I love Viper King!
Quote from: wkiml on June 08, 2012, 09:06:35 AMwould have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on April 22, 2023, 05:54:45 PMTAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

IDontNotDoThings

Hymn Of A Thousand Voices is kinda bad, but the story of TA doesn't really make sense without it, so I kinda have to leave it on my abridged CD. :-\

Our New World is much better though, & would've closed the album perfectly.

MirrorMask

Astonishing is the perfect closing for The Astonishing.

Seriously, I know the album isn't everyone's cup of tea, but as a standalone song... is there really that much difference between the final section of the song, the "People can you hear us" section, and Grand Finale from Six Degrees, Surrender, Trust & Passion from Illumination Theory or Salvation from In the Presence of Enemies? they're all bombastic and larger than life closures to the respective albums.

IDontNotDoThings

Quote from: MirrorMask on October 08, 2019, 12:06:34 AM
Astonishing is the perfect closing for The Astonishing.

Seriously, I know the album isn't everyone's cup of tea, but as a standalone song... is there really that much difference between the final section of the song, the "People can you hear us" section, and Grand Finale from Six Degrees, Surrender, Trust & Passion from Illumination Theory or Salvation from In the Presence of Enemies? they're all bombastic and larger than life closures to the respective albums.

I guess not, but context matters. SDOIT, ITPOE & IT had a fuck-ton of exciting & dramatic moments that had their build-ups felt like they meant something. In Astonishing on the other hand, the entire song is constructed on semi-triumphant reprises (many of which have already been played to death on the earlier album tracks), so the "People can you hear us" doesn't have nearly the same effect as it would if (hypothetically) it were at the end of a 20-minute epic whose previous movements were captivating in any way.

It'd be like if you played Razor's Edge out of context after The Answer Lies Within. It just wouldn't work because there'd be no tension to resolve from.

MirrorMask

Oh well, I can see your point musically, but I was considering Astonishing the song in the context of the entire album, and how it serves as a big finale - I'm happy that it ends like that and not with Our New World or even the somehow triumphant, but less intense, Hymn of a 1000 Voices.

I know the song is made up of reprises from other temes of the album, but the ending is a cool and bombastic reprise. After all also Gran Finale from Six Degrees ends with the main theme (wanna know how a 42 minute songs end? you basically already know 6 minutes in, as the Overture ends), and Razor's Edge eargasmic solo follows Someone Like Him's melody, so I'm happy with the way Astonishing ends even if the song itself is nothing new and doesn't present, within the standalone song, much tension to serve a contrast to the eventual ending.

bosk1

#9794
Astonishing is a fantastic finale.  No, it isn't as bombastic as the other finales IDNDT mentioned.  But for the type of album TA is, it is the perfect finish.  So satisfying.  If you've ever been to a broadway musical, you can just picture the sets of characters coming out onstage for their final bows to thunderous applause during each reprise.  Perfect. 

TAC

Quote from: bosk1 on October 08, 2019, 06:46:54 AM
Astonishing is a fantastic finale.  No, it isn't as bombastic as the other finales IDNDT mentioned.  But for the type of album TA is, it is the perfect finish.  So satisfying.  If you've ever been to a broadway musical, you can just picture the sets of characters coming out onstage for their final bows to thunderous during each reprise.  Perfect.

Exactly
Quote from: wkiml on June 08, 2012, 09:06:35 AMwould have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on April 22, 2023, 05:54:45 PMTAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

ZirconBlue



Quote from: MirrorMask on October 05, 2019, 12:34:05 AM
It depends case for case I guess, but I assume that most lyricists who pay homage, assume that someone, somewhere, knows the subject, and will realize the connection.

Bruce Dickinson has a song called A Tyranny of Souls whose first stanza is *entirely* and *precisely* the first lines of MacBeth, it's not indicated anywhere in the booklet. I know, "everyone" know Shakespeare while an obscure japanese manga is harder to identify, thus with more people that could assume the lyrics are entirely original, but I don't think copying words from literature or other media in songs is that uncommon.



A nitpick:  Priest is a Korean comic (manhwa), not Japanese.

Max Kuehnau

Quote from: bosk1 on October 08, 2019, 06:46:54 AM
Astonishing is a fantastic finale.  No, it isn't as bombastic as the other finales IDNDT mentioned.  But for the type of album TA is, it is the perfect finish.  So satisfying.  If you've ever been to a broadway musical, you can just picture the sets of characters coming out onstage for their final bows to thunderous applause during each reprise.  Perfect.
and a logical ending too, musically speaking, because the motifs of every character get a reprise. Standard procedure in musical theatre. (I'd say it worked even better live too, I've seen TA live and I liked it quite a bit more than the album)

gzarruk

#9798
Quote from: bosk1 on October 08, 2019, 06:46:54 AM
Astonishing is a fantastic finale.  No, it isn't as bombastic as the other finales IDNDT mentioned.  But for the type of album TA is, it is the perfect finish.  So satisfying.  If you've ever been to a broadway musical, you can just picture the sets of characters coming out onstage for their final bows to thunderous applause during each reprise.  Perfect.

Indeed. We were discussing ONW as the closer because we were talking about an abridged version of the album, but Astonishing works quite well as a musical finale.

bosk1

I don't recall for sure, but I believe ONW was the closer on the promo copy.