Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 980127 times)

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Offline gzarruk

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8330 on: September 19, 2018, 06:54:59 AM »
The problem is that the songs work well on paper (remember MP’s original description of the album?), but when you listen to them, it’s not what you would expect.

ANTR is waaay too long and some sections just don’t work well at all, like the blastbeat part towards the end. You could just remove the last 5 mins of it and it would be better.

AROP has a cool instrumental section but, like MirrorMask said, it’s an “insert solo section here” situation, and that’s why it sounds disjointed. The rest of the song? Doesn’t work for me.

Wither is good, but they’ve done so many ballads that are much better than this one (Another Day, TSCO, TBP, TITL, etc), that it just isn’t too noteworthy.

TSF is really cool, but it’s basically a remix of all the previous 12SS songs. Really like the JP and JR solos on this one, though.

TBOT could’ve turned much much better if they didn’t make the song longer just to fit more MP lyrics. The Rush-like intro and THAT solo are amazing, but I get bored by everything in between.

TCOT this is the saving grace for the album, and definitely one of their best songs in my book, but I wish they didn’t let MP do as much vocals for it (IIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!  :facepalm: )

I definitely agree that this album could’ve turned out to be much better if it had an external producer.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline ToT-147

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8331 on: September 19, 2018, 07:43:18 AM »
I don't.. :lol


But seriously.. Don't see how that piece of work could've been improved by anything at all, but for DT themselves.. I mean, even when I do think the album is excellent, and it does represent DT style like almost no other album -and, particularly, contains a lot of what I most like from DT-, it obviously has its little only "good/mediocre" sections.. But I don't think a producer could've done anything to change them and make them better..

He/she could've say or do something to change them, but that surely would've changed the rest of the song as well, and I don't think that would've been something I like more than what I actually like the album as it is.. The producer thing didn't work for the first four albums, I highly doubt it would have ever worked for DT at that stage of their career (or at the current stage, for that matter)..
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8332 on: September 19, 2018, 08:02:14 AM »
Well, but what were the circumstances of the first four albums?

The debut.... well, it was the debut, young and unexperienced band, just be happy you're even recording an album.
Images and Words... yeah, the triggered drums. Bummer. But the songs were fantastic and the album came out fantastic.
Awake... another great album, can't remember any bad external influence at all.
Falling into Infinity.... the disaster that scarred them for life and made them wov to take matters into their own hands ever since.

Now and just as during Black Clouds, DT are and were an estabilished band with full creative control on their carrer, a producer would never say (or be allowed to say) "Make shorter songs LOL and bring back Desmond Child". a good producer with a musical understanding could have solved the dilemma of what to do with the "Day after day" part (remember Portnoy posting three attempts at how to handle that section?), and maybe could have suggested how to smooth and make more cohesive that section and in turn the whole song.
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Offline ToT-147

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8333 on: September 19, 2018, 08:31:43 AM »
Yeah, I agree with what you say about the four first albums, but precisely I&W and Awake -for the success of the former and that lackness of bad external influence in the latter) were the ones that gave them the confidence to keep trusting in external producers (besides the fact that they didn't really have another choice) which carried to the FII thing..

Also, I assume you're all just making an example out of the "Day after day" section, because otherwise it would be kind of silly to want or think a band should've had an external producer just to change 30 seconds of a 75 minutes' album..

If you dislike like this more sections throughout the album, then again, I can't see how a producer could've improved them while not changing other sections which are fine or without modifying some points JP and MP (the only lyricists and actual producers in this album) intended to make, and, in some extent, IMO they accomplished to make..
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8334 on: September 19, 2018, 09:09:39 AM »
All I can say is, for me, most of the things people say they would like to see changed would not be "improvements" to me, and would make the songs/album worse.  Along those lines, I feel like I need to underscore that I largely like the album.  It's just that, by comparison to all their others, it ranks near the bottom.
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8335 on: September 19, 2018, 11:22:50 AM »
The producer thing didn't work for the first four albums

Huh?

What BC&SL might have been with an outside producer is obviously nothing but speculation, but the notion that having outside producers on the first four albums didn't work is just crazy.

Except for the 37-year old Charlie Dominici, the members of DT were 21 when they recorded WDaDU (July - August 1988) and had no idea what they were doing (even "Old Man" Dominici had relatively little experience), so an outside producer was an absolute necessity.

Not much had changed when I&W was recorded three years later (October - December 1991).  What "didn't work" about having an outside producer?  The triggered snare?  Honestly, would anyone know about that if Portnoy hadn't so vocally and publicly bitched about it after the fact?

Awake was recorded another three years later (May - July 1994).  No triggered snare, so there would seem to be even less basis to say the outside "producer thing didn't work."

That gets us to FII (recorded in June - July 1997).  I'm sure we could go on for pages and pages about why this is generally regarded as a bottom 3 DT album (although some folks don't agree with that), but is there really any principled argument that it was Kevin Shirley's fault?  Shirley pulled "Hell's Kitchen" out of BMS and made it a separate song.  In my book, that's a good thing.  Shirley recommended that Desmond Child get involved with "You or Me."  Petrucci obviously agreed, and Portnoy even admits that he agreed (albeit because, in his opinion, it was a song that wasn't going to be used anyway).  IMO, "You Not Me" is superior to "You or Me," so that's a win for Shirley (and outside production in general).  If you believe Portnoy's statement that FII was "a blatant attempt at radio success" (and I don't think Petrucci has ever contradicted that), I think that's the biggest problem with FII (again, not an outside producer problem).  Portnoy and Petrucci disagree about the extent to which the record label influenced the album, but I think it's difficult to deny that the label issues the band was facing played a far bigger role in the quality of FII than any outside producer.

So, with all of that, you've got two great albums, a debut album with an extremely green band and a poorly funded record company, and one album whose problems can't legitimately be blamed on the presence of an outside producer.

Given where DT is now, an outside producer would play a much different role than the producers played 20-25 years ago.  While I'm not one of those who absolutely advocate for an outside producer, I think it would be interesting to see what they'd come up with with the right outside sounding board.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 12:21:41 PM by pg1067 »
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8336 on: September 19, 2018, 12:09:15 PM »
That was spot on!
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8337 on: September 19, 2018, 12:35:13 PM »
That was spot on!

Indeed! the material was what it was, it's not that they went it with a completed Scenes from a Memory and they were asked to write only stuff like Cover My Eyes (well, in their defense, they DID get asked to write more easy stuff, but the bulk of the album is anyway what ended up on the record).

And I agree that Kevin Shirley made the right suggestions. It was right to have Burning My Soul as a concise rocker (and let's not forget the unintended good consequence of splitting Hell's Kitchen - the band wrote the ending to tie to Lines in the Sand and it's my favorite part of the song), it was right to streamline a bit Hollow Year, and You Not Me is catchier than You Or Me. Of course everyone is entitled to like more You Or Me, or to dislike You Not Me, but if the role of Desmond Child was to make the song easier and catchier, mission accomplished I'd say.
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Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8338 on: September 20, 2018, 03:49:13 PM »
All I have the energy to say at this point regarding the new album is, my expectations aren't very high.


Wither is good, but they’ve done so many ballads that are much better than this one (Another Day, TSCO, TBP, TITL, etc), that it just isn’t too noteworthy.

I would actually remove Another Day and insert Wither.  Not to say that AD isn't good.
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Offline ToT-147

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8339 on: September 20, 2018, 04:46:46 PM »
@pg1067  -  Yeah, I probably should have clarify what exactly I was referring to with "The producer thing didn't work for the first four albums", before making you write all that.. I was talking about how the band has felt, long-term speaking, about it.. Not what you or me, or the whole fanbase thinks about those albums (I don't even care about the snare sound at all, lol), neither what they represent for the band, etc.. But what make them made the decision of producing the albums on their own since 1998 until now..

For them, it didn't work.. Otherwise, they would've had at least ONE external producer since then... but we know that's not the case..
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8340 on: September 20, 2018, 08:41:50 PM »
@pg1067  -  Yeah, I probably should have clarify what exactly I was referring to with "The producer thing didn't work for the first four albums", before making you write all that.. I was talking about how the band has felt, long-term speaking, about it.. Not what you or me, or the whole fanbase thinks about those albums (I don't even care about the snare sound at all, lol), neither what they represent for the band, etc.. But what make them made the decision of producing the albums on their own since 1998 until now..

For them, it didn't work.. Otherwise, they would've had at least ONE external producer since then... but we know that's not the case..

To me, it seems that the whole FII situation was the straw that soured MP of outside producers. So he likely swore to Self-produce from then on.

I wouldn't mind if the guys decided to bring in another ear for the production side. It'd be way better if DT14 is Self-produced by the entire band.
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Offline ToT-147

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8341 on: September 20, 2018, 10:05:11 PM »
@pg1067  -  Yeah, I probably should have clarify what exactly I was referring to with "The producer thing didn't work for the first four albums", before making you write all that.. I was talking about how the band has felt, long-term speaking, about it.. Not what you or me, or the whole fanbase thinks about those albums (I don't even care about the snare sound at all, lol), neither what they represent for the band, etc.. But what make them made the decision of producing the albums on their own since 1998 until now..

For them, it didn't work.. Otherwise, they would've had at least ONE external producer since then... but we know that's not the case..

To me, it seems that the whole FII situation was the straw that soured MP of outside producers. So he likely swore to Self-produce from then on.

I wouldn't mind if the guys decided to bring in another ear for the production side. It'd be way better if DT14 is Self-produced by the entire band.

And you're right.. But, as I was saying before, the succes of I&W did its job too, in making them made that decision, as ironic as it might sound.. On one hand, it made them believe that an external producer was needed to make a succesful album, and that's partially why they keep on doing that until FII; on the other hand, they had a lot of internal issues with their producers, especially with David Prater, songs that were never published or postponed for another released (ACoS), etc.. These kind of things, after 10 years, are something you don't want to keep bearing anymore... as long as you can, and so they did..

Btw, all this is not speculation but based on the Lifting Shadows biography..
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8342 on: September 21, 2018, 09:30:24 AM »
Controversial opinion:  Forsaken is pure bliss from start to finish.
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8343 on: September 21, 2018, 09:57:39 AM »
Controversial opinion:  Forsaken is pure bliss from start to finish.

FVCK YEAH!!!!  :metal

Always loved the song, always will. I hope to hear it live one day.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8344 on: September 21, 2018, 10:11:56 AM »
Controversial opinion:  Forsaken is pure bliss from start to finish.

Hell yeah it is. Too bad JLBs awesome high "MEEEEE" at the end was buried.
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8345 on: September 21, 2018, 12:30:14 PM »
I agree :metal
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline ToT-147

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8346 on: September 21, 2018, 02:18:14 PM »
Agreed too.. It doesn't seem like very controversial so far.. :lol


The first verse is pure eargasm.. How you can clearly distinct what every instrument is doing... doing that and making it that tasty is not for eveyone.. And THAT solo..
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Offline ReaperKK

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8347 on: September 21, 2018, 05:27:35 PM »
Controversial opinion:  Forsaken is pure bliss from start to finish.

It’s a great song, I can’t disagree

Offline MetropolisWatches

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8348 on: September 21, 2018, 10:10:38 PM »
The problem of BC&SL is that the songs are just too long. It is a tiring listen.

It's the album that needed the most a producer to suggest more cohesive songs. All the songs have moments that I like a lot. As a whole, there's a little something here and there that is amiss.

A Nightmare to Remember is great but loses the plot after the Beautiful Agony section, a producer could have found a way. A Rite of Passage is cool but has the mandatory (for that era) copy and paste solo that derails the song. The Count of Tuscany is fine as it is but a couple of moments here and there could have been trimmed. The songs are there, the bloat and the unnecessary is also there as well unfortunately.

Your post sums up my feelings. Due to weak arrangements and bloated sections, every song aside from The Count of Tuscany feels lacking.

Offline Zook

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8349 on: September 22, 2018, 03:49:02 AM »
Forsaken is kinda boring.

Offline Indiscipline

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8350 on: September 22, 2018, 07:21:47 AM »
Alright, one per album cycle:


. The triggered snare on I&W is perfectly fine and nobody worried for a loooong time.

. Had Kevin Moore not left the band, SDV would have never made anybody's top or bottom list.

. I am convinced there was never a food poisoning accident, or at least a vocal chords compromising one.

. DT was totally behind FII's change of musical direction, new looks and all. It is retro-actively narrated and widely considered as terrible troubled times only because the attempt at commercial success failed.

. The Home-TDOE sequence is keeping SFAM from being their best album. Dump HOME's boring sin noises section and a couple of reduntant choruses, fill the hole with TDOE's most interesting four minutes, make a single song of it and call it Metropolis pt2.

. The 12 steps suite should have stayed a Glass Prison business. The following entries I could live without and I believe have compromised the following 4 albums.

. ToT material is their best material as far as live shows are concerned.

. Octavarium should have been an EP taylored on the ACOS model. One side live show with the best of the Metallica/Deep Purple/Iron Maiden/Pink Floyd homages, one side with the amazing Octavarium studio song.

. SC is 100% better ten years after its release.

. BC&SL told me DT were finished. It's not an album. it's two generic singles, a suite ending obligation, and three among their most beautiful musical ideas turned into three bloated and rushed songs. It felt they had to come out with something and they had to fill a template, no matter esthetic identity and cooking time.

. The split saved the band.

. Mike Mangini's unforgivable sin for a great chunk of DT fans is not being a "look at me" drummer and not being the loudest in the mix.

. TA is the only DT album since I&W I wouldn't change a thing on.

. Next album is going to reconcile the fandom's two polarized factions.


I don't mind if I'm catching heat, but I'd like to specify I'm fond of and grateful to every DT member past and present.

EDIT: grammar
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 07:34:55 AM by Indiscipline »

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8351 on: September 22, 2018, 07:26:00 AM »
Forsaken is kinda boring.

Yep.  The main piano lead is great and the guitar solo is killer, but the meat of the song is pretty mediocre.  That chorus is so limp.  It sounds like they tried to write this soaring chorus, but missed the mark.

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8352 on: September 22, 2018, 07:40:55 AM »
I am convinced there was never a food poisoning accident, or at least a vocal chords compromising one.

Well, I assume that there are bootlegs of LaBrie singing fantastically like he did in the Images and Words tour and then all of a sudden struggling and croaking, in a short timeframe. SOMETHING sudden and brutal must have happened, come on.

The 12 steps suite should have stayed a Glass Prison business. The following entries I could live without and I believe have compromised the following 4 albums.

Well, I wouldn't go as far as agreeing, but I remember when This Dying Soul came out thinking "ah, so it was not over?"..... the whole song (Glass Prison, I mean) ending with "the door was wide open" seemed a perfect and uplifting closing to the theme.

Anyway, even Portnoy himself is on record saying that he didn't fully realize what he was getting into at the time.
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Offline Indiscipline

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8353 on: September 22, 2018, 07:59:10 AM »
I am convinced there was never a food poisoning accident, or at least a vocal chords compromising one.

Well, I assume that there are bootlegs of LaBrie singing fantastically like he did in the Images and Words tour and then all of a sudden struggling and croaking, in a short timeframe. SOMETHING sudden and brutal must have happened, come on.

I completely agree, and something broke. I just think it was a world tour of insane screams and belting out raspy Awake vocals, not an accident. 

Offline TAC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8354 on: September 22, 2018, 08:16:59 AM »
Lots to chew on there, Alex. Can't respond like I want to right now. but I will..
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Indiscipline

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8355 on: September 22, 2018, 08:21:06 AM »
Should I take my glasses off? *wink*

Offline TAC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8356 on: September 22, 2018, 08:31:20 AM »
The I&W tour wasn't vocally immaculate. There are many rough boots from that tour.


But to say the food poisoning incident was fabricated. WOW, that's quite a claim.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Indiscipline

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8357 on: September 22, 2018, 08:47:34 AM »
Well, I'm not claiming lies and fabrications. I just think that kind of extreme singing without substantial rest is a more probable (and problematic) cause for damage than extreme throwing up.

Offline ToT-147

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8358 on: September 22, 2018, 10:15:59 AM »
Dear @Indiscipline  -  It's weird that I don't agree with ANY of what you said?.. I mean, what are the chances?.. :lol

About SC I wouldn't say 100%, and wouldn't say after 10 years, but it did grow on me.. Only that it took me only a couple of months to falling in love with it (especially with CM, TDEN, TMoLS and ItPoE's, which I disliked at first listen)..

Also, about ToT songs, unfortunately I can't judge if they're the best live or not, because ironically, being the album I consider to be the best, in the 4 times I've seen them remains the only album they didn't played songs off... :'(
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Online SeRoX

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8359 on: September 22, 2018, 10:21:25 AM »
If it is not the food accident and if it is something like you say "James' vocal habits caused that" his voice had to sound like he did in 92-94 with an extra care and rest for the coming years. But the thing is he has never sounded like that era ever. Something should have happened other than randomly screaming and constant touring.
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Offline Evai

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8360 on: September 22, 2018, 10:53:09 AM »
Well, I'm not claiming lies and fabrications. I just think that kind of extreme singing without substantial rest is a more probable (and problematic) cause for damage than extreme throwing up.

Bad shellfish can't melt steel vocal chords  :lol
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Offline Indiscipline

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8361 on: September 22, 2018, 11:23:11 AM »
Dear @Indiscipline  -  It's weird that I don't agree with ANY of what you said?.. I mean, what are the chances?.. :lol

Not weird at all, and very welcome. I love different views.

If it is not the food accident and if it is something like you say "James' vocal habits caused that" his voice had to sound like he did in 92-94 with an extra care and rest for the coming years. But the thing is he has never sounded like that era ever. Something should have happened other than randomly screaming and constant touring.

Yes, something must have happened. My controversial opinion is that "something" being caused by reckless vocal habits on a heavy schedule rather than food poisoning.

 

Offline gzarruk

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8362 on: September 22, 2018, 01:15:05 PM »
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. Had Kevin Moore not left the band, SDV would have never made anybody's top or bottom list.

Finally someone said it! SDV is as overrated as it can be. They should've included TLF instead.

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. DT was totally behind FII's change of musical direction, new looks and all. It is retro-actively narrated and widely considered as terrible troubled times only because the attempt at commercial success failed.

I agree. The album is one of my least favorites anyway, but I think people make such a big deal about it because Portnoy has whined about it for years.

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. BC&SL told me DT were finished. It's not an album. it's two generic singles, a suite ending obligation, and three among their most beautiful musical ideas turned into three bloated and rushed songs. It felt they had to come out with something and they had to fill a template, no matter esthetic identity and cooking time.

Pretty much this.

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. The split saved the band.

You're right on this one too.

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. Mike Mangini's unforgivable sin for a great chunk of DT fans is not being a "look at me" drummer and not being the loudest in the mix.

Yea, most people's complaints about him are because he isn't Portnoy/he doesn't play like he does.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Indiscipline

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8363 on: September 22, 2018, 01:51:06 PM »
Quote
. Had Kevin Moore not left the band, SDV would have never made anybody's top or bottom list.

Finally someone said it! SDV is as overrated as it can be. They should've included TLF instead.

Oh, I think it's a wonderful unique song, easily Awake's best track after Scarred and A Mind Beside Itself. What I meant was it has become a totem to exalt or tear down for reasons unhinged from its actual musical merit.

Offline ToT-147

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8364 on: September 22, 2018, 02:04:24 PM »
Well... I do have SDV in my bottom list but exclusively for musical reasons.. But hey, what you're saying could easily be the case for some people, so I kinda see your point..
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