Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[James Sucellus]

SC is the most mediocre DT album.

My controversial opinion today is that The Glass Prison is my least favourite track on 6DoIT. I still like it though.  Musically I prefer The Great Debate, even if its lyrics are goofy.

[425]

I only like one song on BC&SL: TCOT.  I like none on SC.  I think I've only listened to SC like three times; whereas I've listened to Awake and I&W hundreds.  I might force myself to listen to SC one more time sometime in the near future to give it one last chance for anything to grab me, but I'm too busy right now listening to the fantastic music on TA.  I just don't like it when DT does a Pantera impression overlayed with gothic-sounding synthesizers.  I like Pantera in their own right, but it's not DT's bag.

Some parts of WDADU are lame, but Only A Matter of Time is at least in my DT Top 20, and I'm very fond of Afterlife, Fortune in Lies, and Ones Who Help to Set the Sun.  And Ytse Jam is a fantastic instrumental.

I don't see how SC is a Pantera impression when that album features songs like In the Presence of Enemies, The Ministry of Lost Souls and Repentance. Perhaps you could say that of Constant Motion, The Dark Eternal Night and The Slaughtered of the Damned section of ITPOE, but the rest of the album is not how you described it at all.

But I agree with you that Only A Matter of Time is stellar. I also think The Killing Hand and A Fortune in Lies are top 50 worthy. And I think that WDADU is probably a stronger album on the whole than one DT album that has been released since.

[Train of Naught]

I never knew Systematic Chaos reminded some of Pantera, that's a first to me.

I also never understood the love for Only A Matter of Time, some songs on the album I actually really enjoy, but Status Seeker and OAMOT are deadlast for me, it's not even close.

[BlobVanDam]

I never knew Systematic Chaos reminded some of Pantera, that's a first to me.

Ditto. Not even the song that was admittedly directly inspired by seeing Pantera reminds me of Pantera at all, and I was a big Pantera fan long before I ever heard DT.
The Metallica influence is much more obvious.

[Tomislav95]

Status Seeker is awesome

[Implode]

I'll second that.

[cramx3]

Third that

[pretorios]

1) Disc 2 of SDOIT ... I just don't get the hype. This is one I always skip. By contrast, Disc 1 is perfect.

2) I really like FII. Not sure why it's hated by so many fans. Trial of Tears is one of the best songs DT has ever created.

3) IAW is overhyped. It's got some good tracks but not a ton of stuff I want to hear very often.

4) Jordan is the best thing to happen to DT. The second best thing to happen to DT is Portnoy's leaving. Loved his drumming, but he put himself before the music. "A Nightmare to Remember" is the perfect example; his wretched attempt at death-metal vocals ruin what could be one of DT's best songs. I do miss his drumming, though, but I'm not sure he would settle for a secondary role in the band.

5) TA is DT's best record. I know, I know. We should allow time for perspective and all that jazz, but right now, I like TA more than I've ever liked a DT record at any point in time.

[kaos2900]

1) Disc 2 of SDOIT ... I just don't get the hype. This is one I always skip. By contrast, Disc 1 is perfect.

2) I really like FII. Not sure why it's hated by so many fans. Trial of Tears is one of the best songs DT has ever created.

3) IAW is overhyped. It's got some good tracks but not a ton of stuff I want to hear very often.

4) Jordan is the best thing to happen to DT. The second best thing to happen to DT is Portnoy's leaving. Loved his drumming, but he put himself before the music. "A Nightmare to Remember" is the perfect example; his wretched attempt at death-metal vocals ruin what could be one of DT's best songs. I do miss his drumming, though, but I'm not sure he would settle for a secondary role in the band.

5) TA is DT's best record. I know, I know. We should allow time for perspective and all that jazz, but right now, I like TA more than I've ever liked a DT record at any point in time.

I agree with all of those except for #1. I LOVE disc 2 of SDOIT.

[Evermind]

1) Disc 2 of SDOIT ... I just don't get the hype. This is one I always skip. By contrast, Disc 1 is perfect.

2) I really like FII. Not sure why it's hated by so many fans. Trial of Tears is one of the best songs DT has ever created.

3) IAW is overhyped. It's got some good tracks but not a ton of stuff I want to hear very often.

4) Jordan is the best thing to happen to DT. The second best thing to happen to DT is Portnoy's leaving. Loved his drumming, but he put himself before the music. "A Nightmare to Remember" is the perfect example; his wretched attempt at death-metal vocals ruin what could be one of DT's best songs. I do miss his drumming, though, but I'm not sure he would settle for a secondary role in the band.

5) TA is DT's best record. I know, I know. We should allow time for perspective and all that jazz, but right now, I like TA more than I've ever liked a DT record at any point in time.

I agree with all of those except for #1. I LOVE disc 2 of SDOIT.

I only agree with #1.

[James Sucellus]

The Astonishing is my fourth favourite DT album behind Awake, I + W and SFAM. On here the album is pretty popular, but the reaction everywhere else  has been so divisive that I'd consider this a controversial opinion.

Another controversial opinion of mine would be that DT have only made five truly great albums: the ones I just mentioned and 6DoIT. All of their albums have songs I enjoy, but the others are hard for me to sit through in one go. I don't enjoy 'heavy' DT as much as most fans, and I think the popularity of The Glass Prison led the band in a bad direction for a very long time when it came to focus in songwriting.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Most of the negative mindless feedback I've read on the internet of The Astonishing goes along these lines:

NOT ENOUGH METAL.....WORST ALBUM BY DT.....TOO SOFT...MP DURM GOD INDONESIA SOON...
DISAPPOINTED BY THE LACK OF BALLS...MP PLS COME BACK
etc.

As with everything, there have been some pretty interesting intelligent insights of people that haven't liked the album, but those are never the majority. I think DT knew beforehand that this release would be polarizing to some extent, but as noxon stated in the main Astonishing thread: lots of classic DT albums that are loved by the majority received their fair amount of hate back in the day. That's what you get when you do something bold and risky.

[pretorios]

Another controversial opinion of mine would be that DT have only made five truly great albums: the ones I just mentioned and 6DoIT. All of their albums have songs I enjoy, but the others are hard for me to sit through in one go. I don't enjoy 'heavy' DT as much as most fans, and I think the popularity of The Glass Prison led the band in a bad direction for a very long time when it came to focus in songwriting.

Do you think the popularity of Glass Prison took them in that direction, or was it MP? I think it was the latter.I probably like the metal side of DT more than you. I thought TOT was a very solid record. But I'll concede that it's better a band as talented as DT doesn't waste their time on that kind of stuff. There's other musical paths to explore, and thankfully, they're exploring those on TA.

[Enigmachine]

Another controversial opinion of mine would be that DT have only made five truly great albums: the ones I just mentioned and 6DoIT. All of their albums have songs I enjoy, but the others are hard for me to sit through in one go. I don't enjoy 'heavy' DT as much as most fans, and I think the popularity of The Glass Prison led the band in a bad direction for a very long time when it came to focus in songwriting.

Do you think the popularity of Glass Prison took them in that direction, or was it MP? I think it was the latter.I probably like the metal side of DT more than you. I thought TOT was a very solid record. But I'll concede that it's better a band as talented as DT doesn't waste their time on that kind of stuff. There's other musical paths to explore, and thankfully, they're exploring those on TA.

It was probably the popularity of TGP + ToT actually. MP gets both credit and derision for being the 'Metal Guy' of the band, but the decision to go heavy was likely to be a joint one between MP and JP. Remember that JP is the one write the riffs.

[Crow]

I propose a new thread title, but I don't have any interesting opinions to give otherwise.

[jsbru]

2) I really like FII. Not sure why it's hated by so many fans. Trial of Tears is one of the best songs DT has ever created.

It's hard for me to rank FII, mostly because it's simply inconsistent.  I'm with you; Trial of Tears is in my top 3 all-time for DT, and it's quite possibly #1.  Lines in the Sand is also very good.  I know opinions differ on New Millennium, but I love that one, too.  However, YNM, JLMB, and BMS are pretty weak, and I usually skip them.  And there's 4 "ballads" on that album; it could probably use one less.  I'm kind of a fan of HY and TAMP, but I would have left out either YNM or AL.  I think YNM would have been much better actually if it used the verse from the demo YoM, but the studio YNM chorus.

I kind of wish they made it into a double album, leaving off JLMB and a few others, but including the SFAM stuff they originally had.  I like the second half of SFAM, but the first half gets kind of long for me.  And also, they should have left HK in the middle of BMS.

Overall, this album for me is middle of the pack, but somewhere above median.  Not sure why it is so derided.

[mikeyd23]

Another controversial opinion of mine would be that DT have only made five truly great albums: the ones I just mentioned and 6DoIT. All of their albums have songs I enjoy, but the others are hard for me to sit through in one go. I don't enjoy 'heavy' DT as much as most fans, and I think the popularity of The Glass Prison led the band in a bad direction for a very long time when it came to focus in songwriting.

Do you think the popularity of Glass Prison took them in that direction, or was it MP? I think it was the latter.I probably like the metal side of DT more than you. I thought TOT was a very solid record. But I'll concede that it's better a band as talented as DT doesn't waste their time on that kind of stuff. There's other musical paths to explore, and thankfully, they're exploring those on TA.

It was probably the popularity of TGP + ToT actually. MP gets both credit and derision for being the 'Metal Guy' of the band, but the decision to go heavy was likely to be a joint one between MP and JP. Remember that JP is the one write the riffs.

If I remember right, JP liked the reception TGP got when they played it live to support SDOIT. So he brought the idea to the band to do basically a whole album of heavy stuff like that-so ToT was born.

[pcs90]

4) Jordan is the best thing to happen to DT. The second best thing to happen to DT is Portnoy's leaving. Loved his drumming, but he put himself before the music. "A Nightmare to Remember" is the perfect example; his wretched attempt at death-metal vocals ruin what could be one of DT's best songs. I do miss his drumming, though, but I'm not sure he would settle for a secondary role in the band.

5) TA is DT's best record. I know, I know. We should allow time for perspective and all that jazz, but right now, I like TA more than I've ever liked a DT record at any point in time.

I completely agree with all of the above, except I don't miss MP's drumming at all. But other than that, absolutely! TA is currently in first place for me too and I don't see it moving.

[Hal Incandenza]

2) I really like FII. Not sure why it's hated by so many fans. Trial of Tears is one of the best songs DT has ever created.

It's hard for me to rank FII, mostly because it's simply inconsistent.  I'm with you; Trial of Tears is in my top 3 all-time for DT, and it's quite possibly #1.  Lines in the Sand is also very good.  I know opinions differ on New Millennium, but I love that one, too.  However, YNM, JLMB, and BMS are pretty weak, and I usually skip them.  And there's 4 "ballads" on that album; it could probably use one less.  I'm kind of a fan of HY and TAMP, but I would have left out either YNM or AL.  I think YNM would have been much better actually if it used the verse from the demo YoM, but the studio YNM chorus.

I kind of wish they made it into a double album, leaving off JLMB and a few others, but including the SFAM stuff they originally had.  I like the second half of SFAM, but the first half gets kind of long for me.  And also, they should have left HK in the middle of BMS.

Overall, this album for me is middle of the pack, but somewhere above median.  Not sure why it is so derided.

I said once long ago that it has some of the highest highs and lowest lows of any of DT's albums. I stand by that.

[jsbru]

Yeah, the heavy direction gets blamed a lot on MP, but I think JP was completely fine with it as well.  After all, the heavier the song, generally speaking the more guitar-dominated it is.

Even though I'm a guitar player myself, I like music that's more balanced and even sometimes tilted to the keyboard-driven side.  That's one of the reasons I love I&W and Awake so much--they're some of the most balanced albums they put out both from a style perspective and from an instrument perspective.  There's plenty of moments on each record where each musician shines through, including JM, who seems to have been relegated to the background in all recent albums other than DT12.

I don't mind DT's heavy side.  Two of my top 5 albums for them are Awake and ToT.  I think it depends more on what kind of heavy.  I just think the heavy songs on both of these albums are a little bit more focused and riff-based.  I don't like the darker, more gothic sound of SC and BC&SL, and I also think the songs on these albums meander around too much and have too much "wankery."  There's way too many instrumental sections that go into the same chromatic/diminished poly-rhythmic jams that are cool once in a while, but tend to get over-used by DT.  I think that's why I find TA to be somewhat refreshing, actually.

[James Sucellus]

Awake is my favourite DT album, and I don't really consider it that heavy. It's more atmospheric (something no other DT album consistently achieves), and the songs have a real discipline to them. Later 'heavy' DT songs tend to outstay their welcome with me very early and then I am left listening to meaningless shredding that says nothing to me.

Obviously there are exceptions, but personally let's just say I'm in the camp who thinks Disappear is the best song on 6DoIT's first disc.

[pretorios]

2) I really like FII. Not sure why it's hated by so many fans. Trial of Tears is one of the best songs DT has ever created.

It's hard for me to rank FII, mostly because it's simply inconsistent.  I'm with you; Trial of Tears is in my top 3 all-time for DT, and it's quite possibly #1.  Lines in the Sand is also very good.  I know opinions differ on New Millennium, but I love that one, too.  However, YNM, JLMB, and BMS are pretty weak, and I usually skip them.  And there's 4 "ballads" on that album; it could probably use one less.  I'm kind of a fan of HY and TAMP, but I would have left out either YNM or AL.  I think YNM would have been much better actually if it used the verse from the demo YoM, but the studio YNM chorus.

I kind of wish they made it into a double album, leaving off JLMB and a few others, but including the SFAM stuff they originally had.  I like the second half of SFAM, but the first half gets kind of long for me.  And also, they should have left HK in the middle of BMS.

Overall, this album for me is middle of the pack, but somewhere above median.  Not sure why it is so derided.

I think FII is pretty listenable. There are some weaker teacks, but none I'm inclined to skip except maybe AL. I have to admit, somewhat guiltily, that I dig BMS. I know it's pretty low hanging fruit for a band like DT, but I appreciate the dark brooding tone.

[jsbru]

Awake is my favourite DT album, and I don't really consider it that heavy. It's more atmospheric (something no other DT album consistently achieves), and the songs have a real discipline to them. Later 'heavy' DT songs tend to outstay their welcome with me very early and then I am left listening to meaningless shredding that says nothing to me.

Obviously there are exceptions, but personally let's just say I'm in the camp who thinks Disappear is the best song on 6DoIT's first disc.

Agree with the "atmospheric" aspect of Awake.  I&W comes close, but no other album of theirs is in the neighborhood of Awake with the atmosphere.  It just has this kind of mystique that's a touch somber but also mysterious, like you're exploring a new world that nobody's been to yet.  I want to credit Kevin Moore for this, but it was probably a process the whole band contributed to.

TA approaches the emotionality and compositional dynamics you find on Awake, but it doesn't quite capture the mystique.  That's why I think it will ultimately end up settling in behind Awake, but still somewhere in my top 3 or 4.

[MirrorMask]

I don't mind DT's heavy side.  Two of my top 5 albums for them are Awake and ToT.  I think it depends more on what kind of heavy.  I just think the heavy songs on both of these albums are a little bit more focused and riff-based.  I don't like the darker, more gothic sound of SC and BC&SL, and I also think the songs on these albums meander around too much and have too much "wankery."  There's way too many instrumental sections that go into the same chromatic/diminished poly-rhythmic jams that are cool once in a while, but tend to get over-used by DT. 

Same here, basically. I love Awake, and The Mirror is one of my favorite songs - EVER. But I can really do without the final section of This Dying Soul for example, that kind of heaviness I don't find it even in the other heavy bands I like.

[Crow]

the thing about awake is how goddamn much every instrument adds to a song instead of them clashing or one of them outshining the others as tends to happen with a good bit of DT's stuff

[jsbru]

the thing about awake is how goddamn much every instrument adds to a song instead of them clashing or one of them outshining the others as tends to happen with a good bit of DT's stuff

Yeah, the same could be said for I&W mostly.  The songs are very well-written, and I think the compositional dynamics within each song contribute to this.  Songs like IF, Voices, and Scarred have some pretty heavy sections, but also have some really moody, light, atmospheric sections.  And even Lie has that long, mysterious outro solo section.  And The Mirror has some very spacious, calmer sections, too.  These softer sections give the keyboards and bass room to add atmosphere.  And SDV and 6:00 are pretty keyboard driven, and LSOAD and Scarred start out with bass-driven sections.  And Silent Man is probably their best "ballad" ever.

[jsbru]

I never knew Systematic Chaos reminded some of Pantera, that's a first to me.

I probably painted with a broad brush when I made that statement.  The first and second time I listened to the album, Forsaken reminded me specifically of Megadeth, Constant Motion reminded specifically me of Metallica, and The Dark Eternal Night reminded me specifically of Pantera--the same way The Looking Glass reminded me instantly of Rush.

It's not that I dislike those metal bands...it's just that I don't feel like it's a sound DT should be pursuing.  Those bands don't use keyboards, and James' voice isn't optimized in that register.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Another controversial opinion of mine would be that DT have only made five truly great albums: the ones I just mentioned and 6DoIT. All of their albums have songs I enjoy, but the others are hard for me to sit through in one go. I don't enjoy 'heavy' DT as much as most fans, and I think the popularity of The Glass Prison led the band in a bad direction for a very long time when it came to focus in songwriting.

Do you think the popularity of Glass Prison took them in that direction, or was it MP? I think it was the latter.I probably like the metal side of DT more than you. I thought TOT was a very solid record. But I'll concede that it's better a band as talented as DT doesn't waste their time on that kind of stuff. There's other musical paths to explore, and thankfully, they're exploring those on TA.

It was probably the popularity of TGP + ToT actually. MP gets both credit and derision for being the 'Metal Guy' of the band, but the decision to go heavy was likely to be a joint one between MP and JP. Remember that JP is the one write the riffs.

If I remember right, JP liked the reception TGP got when they played it live to support SDOIT. So he never played it again.

FTFY

[Rodni Demental]

Hasn't DT been metal since.. Always? I know The Glass Prison was a song that had a lot of prominent fast and hard riffing, but I'd argue that it was still nothing entirely new for them, just the first time they'd put it all into one song. They've had the hard fast riffing since the first album, A Fortune in Lies anyone?
What about The Mirror? That song is more on the slower atmospheric heavy side but is still as heavy as they come if you ask me, that thing is just a string of badass riffery one after the other. (Similarly to how I see the structure of The Glass Prison).

I guess I don't know if this is controversial then, I don't exactly identify as a Metalhead or whatever but I got into the band through the newer stuff (BC&SL and backwards from there). By the time I got to Train of Thought / Six Degrees, I had a fairly solid impression of what I liked about DT. When I got back to FII things started to get inconsistent, and Awake / Images & Words were tough to get into, BUT what kept me coming back with songs like, NM, BMS, JLMB, LITS, TM, UAGM, TTT, PMU, L2L, CAIW, 6:00, Voices, pretty much, as long as it had some heavy riffing in it I didn't get too alienated. It took a bit longer for songs like Surrounded, The Silent Man, Wait for Sleep, Innocence Faded etc. to grow on me (and I doubt I'll ever like Space Dye Vest, possibly the one DT song I can't trick myself into liking). I've played keyboard (piano) all my life (or since the age of 7) and have even been fortunate enough to be able to start making a living off it in the last few years, but for some reason I lean towards guitar oriented songs with my favourite bands.

So what I'm saying minus the typical ramblings; I'm drawn to DT because of the metal elements, it's always been my favourite part of the band. Give me The Dark Eternal Night the second coming or Honor Thy Grandfather one day and I'll be a happy fan.

[BlobVanDam]

Hasn't DT been metal since.. Always? I know The Glass Prison was a song that had a lot of prominent fast and hard riffing, but I'd argue that it was still nothing entirely new for them, just the first time they'd put it all into one song. They've had the hard fast riffing since the first album, A Fortune in Lies anyone?
What about The Mirror? That song is more on the slower atmospheric heavy side but is still as heavy as they come if you ask me, that thing is just a string of badass riffery one after the other. (Similarly to how I see the structure of The Glass Prison).

Many prog fans like to draw an arbitrary line of what is "metal" or not, because they consider it a dirty word and like to use it to separate the DT they like from the DT they don't like.
But yes, they've always been metal, hence the sub-genre they helped create. Sometimes they're more metal, sometimes less, and they've covered many different styles of metal, but they've always had that inclination there, and they've evolved with the times and stayed current.

[Rodni Demental]

Yeah, when I see people flat out disapprove of the metal elements I sometimes think to myself, "do you even dream theater?". 
Just because it feels like it's always been fundamental, but I understand they can be more or less inclined depending on the song. Of course, it's not the only element and they can be represented by other styles and labels. Metal is a pretty broad term anyway so to dismiss those elements you might as well be dismissing drop tuning, palm muting, 7 strings, or basically every guitar tone that has scooped mid range.

Then again, there's the other side of it which I haven't seen with DT fans (but still equally bothers me XD). I've seen this as criticism against DT (and other music) from people who found they like one or two of the heavier songs then expect them to always be heavy. Pretty much, I've met some people that seem to be able to break all music in the world into two categories: Either it's "metal" or it's "gay". So I dunno, it's complicated because people have preferences in styles which is why we identify with certain bands and the 'styles' they either adhere to or lean towards. For DT, that style is a bit more ambiguous as they seem to have varying appeal among fans so we're not really sure what we want.

[Scorpion]

I don't think that people categorising music into the categories "heavy" or "gay" are worth talking about music with, period.

[Rodni Demental]

Lol well I've learnt you won't get far with expanding their musical horizons, but they're certainly passionate about what they do enjoy. Even if they're making sweeping generilisations about everything else. 

[BlobVanDam]

Either it's "metal" or it's "gay".

Well that's just stupid.


A lot of the '80s music I listen to proves that you can have both! Take THAT, genre classification!

I don't care what style DT want to do, whether it's metal or prog or a ballad, as long as I enjoy it for what it is. Yes, being less of a prog fan, there are some notable instances where I like some proggier songs a lot less than the majority (ACOS, LTL etc), but it's not just blanket because it's prog. There are also just as many proggy songs I love as much as the majority. Same with any other side of the band.
I'll appreciate any song I think is well written, I don't have any pretension that a certain style is beneath DT or that they shouldn't/can't do a certain sound. I love ToT for its intentionally one dimensional smack in the face of metal, just as I love FII for its laid back pop sensibilities. I liked that they explored the boundaries of the metal side with SC/BCASL, just as I like them exploring the prog side with SFAM/TA.

[Stadler]

I don't care what style DT want to do, whether it's metal or prog or a ballad, as long as I enjoy it for what it is.

If I wasn't so lazy, I'd make this my signature. 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know for me, I'm not arrogant enough to suggest that DT "should be" making music "I" like.  They make it - metal, rap, prog, disco, whatever - and I get to choose whether I listen to it or not.   None of it is "better" or "worse" or "gay" or "whatever the opposite of gay is", it's just THEIR music. 

Plenty of bands have veered away from what I liked about them (Scorpions) and vice versa, many bands have veered INTO what I like about them (The Dead).   I get that we might like one certain aspect better than others but that's "a controversial opinion about US", not a "controversial opinion about Dream Theater".