Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Invisible]

Erwinrafael said Queen(the band that, along the other three I mentioned(DT, U2 and PF), conforms my personal "Big Four"), and that's a band with dramatic changes every time on their careers, but I think it's different than the other three I mentioned. The big difference is that Queen always sounded to me like four solo artists playing each other songs*. Unlike DT, who have very different creative forces but ultimately throw everything in the same pot and work each others ideas, Queen songs were written individually by each bands member. And, if you separate every track by member and follow their history, the evolution becomes much less dramatic. 9 times out of 10 I can spot a John Deacon song, or a Brian May song, not only on the lyrics but on the style as well. The only one who changed radically, was the genius mastermind that was Freddie Mercury, the others kind of stayed withing their frameworks only to come out of it on special ocassions.
That difference is, I think, what allowed Queen to go into any direction without suffering as much. Still, there are quite a few fans who frown upon their '80s direction.

All very true.  I remember one of the members of Queen saying that they lost the U.S., but won over the rest of the world in the 80s, alluding to the fact that their popularity dwindled a bit here in the States, but their popularity soared everywhere else.  Like we have said, when you go off the rails and do radically different things, you can't please everyone.  Hell, even when sticking to what most fans love the most, you still can't please everyone.

This reminds me of a quote I read somewhere, which translates as "I don't know the key to success, but I know that key to failure is trying to please everyone". I'm translating from spanish, but the message is kind of the same.

By the way, it's funny aprilethereal that TROAE was the song that brought me back to DT when I was in the "everything post-SFAM sucks" state of mind , so no, I don't think it's disjointed, I actually find it to flow very well and it's one of the most compact and accesible of the whole 12 Step Suite. But I guess it wouldn't be controversial if I agreed on it .

[Nearmyth]

My controversial opinion of the day: TROAE kind of suffers from being disjointed and most transitions between parts being not that great. Which is why it's probably my least or second least favourite on Octavarium, which doesn't really mean anything, since 8VM is an almost perfect album imo and I love every single song on it. But yeah, TROAE could probably have been even better with better transitions.

I'm going to add to this controversial opinion: I don't think TROAE is all that great either. It's probably my least favorite from the 12SS, and mid-range for Octavarium. I like some of the transitions and the reprise of This Dying Soul, but it takes too long to get going, and the riffing sounds very generic to me. High points: The chorus, "humility now my only hope", Octavarium theme outro.

[jakepriest]

Imho TROAE is a top-20 DT song.  The chorus is one of DT's best and the riff is amazing. No idea what you find generic about it.

[robwebster]

My controversial opinion of the day: TROAE kind of suffers from being disjointed and most transitions between parts being not that great. Which is why it's probably my least or second least favourite on Octavarium, which doesn't really mean anything, since 8VM is an almost perfect album imo and I love every single song on it. But yeah, TROAE could probably have been even better with better transitions.

I'm going to add to this controversial opinion: I don't think TROAE is all that great either. It's probably my least favorite from the 12SS, and mid-range for Octavarium. I like some of the transitions and the reprise of This Dying Soul, but it takes too long to get going, and the riffing sounds very generic to me. High points: The chorus, "humility now my only hope", Octavarium theme outro.

Oooooh! That might be genuinely controversial! And surprisingly controversial, actually. It's not one of those all-time classics everyone talks about constantly, but it's a really solid and well-beloved track. I think it's become accepted as a sort of modern classic without anyone really mentioning.

It's always, historically, been right in my top ten. It spent a very, very long time as my second favourite Dream Theater song. So I think I'm probably way off in the other direction. But it's an interesting opinion - I don't share it, but I can definitely see it. And it's interesting that it's interesting. I never noticed that TRoAE tends to be generally accepted as a really very good song until you and aprilethereal came along saying the opposite. I always sort of assumed it was just me!

[...] except where he mentions Muse, a band that I used to love but now it doesn't do much for me.(I'm not talking about their latest album, but the previous before that)

Funnily, I sort of agree with you, there! I do really dig The Resistance, but I think it's a little weaker than the albums either side. Black Holes is superb. The 2nd Law is superb. The Resistance is just neat.

Finally, and I hoping someone gets here and isn't bored to death by my ramblings, I wouldn't take everything a DT band member says as written in stone. I heard numerous 2005/06 interviews of JP saying he preferred personal non-fictional songwriting to his early fantasy lyrics, even going so far as saying they were "juvenile and immature", the next thing he did was Systematic Chaos . Personally, I would prefer a mix bag, not pulling a "Kid A" but incorporating some new stuff mixed with "classic DT". But, unlike this last album or previous ones, I would prefer "the experiment" to be a full song instead of a little section on a "classic DT" song. Prophets of War inside Systematic Chaos or Space Dye Vest inside Awake come to mind.

I do agree with this. DT12 is utterly stupendous - I think it's a serious contender for their best album. The songwriting is so tight, and - I've said it before (in this thread!) - but even a song like Behind the Veil, a relatively normal song, is exceptional by being everything DT is all at once! They've been properly ruthless, for the first time in their career there's not a single note wasted, which makes each note both crucial and brilliant; every moment is at 100%. They've ditched the idea of each song being "just one thing" - the light songs are a bit heavy, the heavy songs are a bit melodic, the melodies are a bit technical - but each song has its own very distinct character, both within the context of the album and within the band's discography on the whole. They're making better use of all their instrumentalists, John Myung is finally completely present and doing musical things on a regular basis, it's an utter goldmine. I think there's a huge, huge case to be made that it's their strongest and most coherent album ever.

But they've written that album, now, and I don't think I'd want them to do it again. Keep some of what they've learnt, keep that taut songwriting and the incredible basslines, but I love that "What the fuck is this?!" There are moments of genuine surprise on DT12, and plenty of new ground trodden, but while The Embracing Circle is plenty surprising, it's not wild. I think the last time I got that horror with Dream Theater, funnily, was The Dark Eternal Night. (Another song that's spent untold time in my top ten - so much character!) It's just another voice, now, but at the time, it was everything Dream Theater was, violently clashing with everything Dream Theater wasn't. It was like Slipknot's cover of The Dance of Eternity. I still think it's brilliant. There we go, that's my controversial opinion. "More of that Systematic Chaos magic next time, please."

[aprilethereal]

Don't get me wrong though, I really love TROAE, it's just that I think some of the transitions, or lack thereof, kind of weaken it a little.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

TROAE is pretty generic. I still like it though.

[TheGreatPretender]

TORAE has the single best riff that JP has ever written.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Just no lol.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

It's a great riff. Among JP's most memorable actually. It was one of the defining riffs from DT for me as I was getting into them, but I feel that he still has much better.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

He's churned out so many great riffs over the course of their career. Every album including the terrible ones has great riffs.

[TheGreatPretender]

Yup, he's got a ton of great riffs. And TROAE is the best of them. 

[Invisible]

Funnily, I sort of agree with you, there! I do really dig The Resistance, but I think it's a little weaker than the albums either side. Black Holes is superb. The 2nd Law is superb. The Resistance is just neat.

I haven't heard The 2nd Law I have to make that right some day... But off The Resistance the only songs I still hear are MK Ultra and Unnatural Selection, all the others are just not for me. I could always cope with Muse somewhat poor lyrics but on that album I just can't.

I do agree with this. DT12 is utterly stupendous - I think it's a serious contender for their best album. The songwriting is so tight, and - I've said it before (in this thread!) - but even a song like Behind the Veil, a relatively normal song, is exceptional by being everything DT is all at once! They've been properly ruthless, for the first time in their career there's not a single note wasted, which makes each note both crucial and brilliant; every moment is at 100%. They've ditched the idea of each song being "just one thing" - the light songs are a bit heavy, the heavy songs are a bit melodic, the melodies are a bit technical - but each song has its own very distinct character, both within the context of the album and within the band's discography on the whole. They're making better use of all their instrumentalists, John Myung is finally completely present and doing musical things on a regular basis, it's an utter goldmine. I think there's a huge, huge case to be made that it's their strongest and most coherent album ever.

Completely agree with you on DT12, although everything you said can be said for Awake (and I&W, FII and 6DOIT but that's up to the listener, those are my picks ). I think DT12 has more potential than any album they released since Six Degrees to enter the DT pantheon of albums, time will tell.

But they've written that album, now, and I don't think I'd want them to do it again. Keep some of what they've learnt, keep that taut songwriting and the incredible basslines, but I love that "What the fuck is this?!" There are moments of genuine surprise on DT12, and plenty of new ground trodden, but while The Embracing Circle is plenty surprising, it's not wild. I think the last time I got that horror with Dream Theater, funnily, was The Dark Eternal Night. (Another song that's spent untold time in my top ten - so much character!) It's just another voice, now, but at the time, it was everything Dream Theater was, violently clashing with everything Dream Theater wasn't. It was like Slipknot's cover of The Dance of Eternity. I still think it's brilliant. There we go, that's my controversial opinion. "More of that Systematic Chaos magic next time, please."

The last WTF moment for me was A Nightmare To Remember ROAAAAAAAAR , but SC has more of those moments. Although I like TDEN, I prefer the WTF moments of 6DOIT, Train of Thought and Octavarium. But as long as they do something completely off at least for one song, I'll be happy. Still, I have to say that even DT12 has that "classic" album feel, it wasn't as predictable as most ADTOE. I never expected the ballads to go heavy or viceversa, Behind The Veil surprised me all along first with this heavy riffing and James aggresive singing and then going melodic on the chorus, The Bigger Picture had plenty of surprises too("ok, now the song ended, no! it keeps going! it's going to come back to the chorus... Wow, ANOTHER section altogether!"), Along For The Ride didn't stay ballady but evolved, and I don't have to say that Illumination Theory was one surprise after the other. The only thing that I found missing were those WTF moments, but maybe that's a good thing, maybe that craziness wasn't for this album.

The thing that I like the most of DT12 is that now I have no idea what to hope for next, I still haven't figured out if this self title thing is a message to their past or their future or both, is the next album going to stay on this vein or that was just a farewell. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

EDIT: Fixed some things I forgot to include!

Oh, and The Root Of All Evil riff is a Top 10 for JP riffs for sure! "Driven blindly by our sins, misled so easily"

[BlobVanDam]

TROAE is a great song, and probably my 2nd favourite of the 12SS, but I do agree some of the transitions are abrupt. I just don't personally think those transitions weaken the song in any way. I actually love the sudden stop for the keyboard solo, with that little pixie unison fill bit.
On the other hand, there's TSF, where the transitions are so abrupt and copy/paste, that I do feel they severely weaken the track to make it just feel like a medley.

[aprilethereal]

On the other hand, there's TSF, where the transitions are so abrupt and copy/paste, that I do feel they severely weaken the track to make it just feel like a medley.

Interestingly enough I've come to like TSF a lot this year and the transitions don't bother me at all, although you're definitely right about the copy & paste feel. I just think it somehow works.

[Outcrier]

TROAE is a great song, and probably my 2nd favourite of the 12SS, but I do agree some of the transitions are abrupt. I just don't personally think those transitions weaken the song in any way.

[robwebster]

TROAE is a great song, and probably my 2nd favourite of the 12SS, but I do agree some of the transitions are abrupt. I just don't personally think those transitions weaken the song in any way. I actually love the sudden stop for the keyboard solo, with that little pixie unison fill bit.

It's funny, cos I can see what bothers people, and it's the kind of thing that might bother me in other songs. I think it's momentum - TROAE pushes on, keeps ploughing through, and while the riffs clash a little, I go along with it.

I do agree with this. DT12 is utterly stupendous - I think it's a serious contender for their best album. The songwriting is so tight, and - I've said it before (in this thread!) - but even a song like Behind the Veil, a relatively normal song, is exceptional by being everything DT is all at once! They've been properly ruthless, for the first time in their career there's not a single note wasted, which makes each note both crucial and brilliant; every moment is at 100%. They've ditched the idea of each song being "just one thing" - the light songs are a bit heavy, the heavy songs are a bit melodic, the melodies are a bit technical - but each song has its own very distinct character, both within the context of the album and within the band's discography on the whole. They're making better use of all their instrumentalists, John Myung is finally completely present and doing musical things on a regular basis, it's an utter goldmine. I think there's a huge, huge case to be made that it's their strongest and most coherent album ever.

Completely agree with you on DT12, although everything you said can be said for Awake (and I&W, FII and 6DOIT but that's up to the listener, those are my picks ). I think DT12 has more potential than any album they released since Six Degrees to enter the DT pantheon of albums, time will tell.

The other albums have a lot of great music, and you can absolutely argue that there's not a note out of place, but it's a slightly different thing - they're not taut in the same way. I feel like if they wrote PMU for DT12, it'd be six minutes long and sharp as a razor. DT12 sounds like they really focused on making an album where every note counts, whereas the others are fuller figured, but just happen to be albums where most every note's a pleasure?

Still, I have to say that even DT12 has that "classic" album feel, it wasn't as predictable as most ADTOE. I never expected the ballads to go heavy or viceversa, Behind The Veil surprised me all along first with this heavy riffing and James aggresive singing and then going melodic on the chorus, The Bigger Picture had plenty of surprises too("ok, now the song ended, no! it keeps going! it's going to come back to the chorus... Wow, ANOTHER section altogether!"), Along For The Ride didn't stay ballady but evolved, and I don't have to say that Illumination Theory was one surprise after the other. The only thing that I found missing were those WTF moments, but maybe that's a good thing, maybe that craziness wasn't for this album.

Absolutely! Yes, that's exactly what I always say. It's classic DT, but with a brand new voice, new accent, emphasis in different places. Age old and brand new, both at the same time.

[RodrigoAltaf]

Forsaken is way better than Space-Dye Vest. There.

Don´t hate me, but I agree as well. I could never get Space-Dye Vest and the praise it receives. It´s cool that they´re playing it now for the first time and everything, but I´d take anything from SysChaos or BCSL over SDV.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

You know, I really couldn't tell you whether or not this is controversial, but having given DT12 another spin after some time away from it, I come to find myself surprised at just how fresh it still sounds. I figured at first all the charm had waned on me, but it's a pleasant surprise to find just how satisfying the entire thing is.

In regards to SDV, it's a fantastic song and one of DT's most unique, but I really don't put it on this pedestal most seem to here. I can't say I'd take any song from SC or BC&SL over it, but there are certainly choice songs from both that I would.

[Nearmyth]

I'm not saying I don't like TRAOE of course  It actually just missed out on my top 50.

Imho TROAE is a top-20 DT song.  The chorus is one of DT's best and the riff is amazing. No idea what you find generic about it.

It is a good riff no doubt, but aren't all of JP's riffs "good?" When I think of generic riffs in that song, the verses and the solo section riffs come to mind more so. Idk, as a whole the song is not very exciting for me.

TROAE is a great song, and probably my 2nd favourite of the 12SS, but I do agree some of the transitions are abrupt. I just don't personally think those transitions weaken the song in any way. I actually love the sudden stop for the keyboard solo, with that little pixie unison fill bit.
On the other hand, there's TSF, where the transitions are so abrupt and copy/paste, that I do feel they severely weaken the track to make it just feel like a medley.

I love that little keyboard section!

TSF is probably my 4th on 12SS. As a standalone song, I could see it being pretty inconsistent. But as a finale to the 12SS, I think it does everything it was meant to do. All of the reprises, the mashups... Great! On BC&SL? Kind of a chore to get through. In this song's case, the individual parts (especially the last 3-4 minutes, damn what an ending!) make up for its standalone inconsistency.

[Invisible]

Completely agree with you on DT12, although everything you said can be said for Awake (and I&W, FII and 6DOIT but that's up to the listener, those are my picks ). I think DT12 has more potential than any album they released since Six Degrees to enter the DT pantheon of albums, time will tell.

The other albums have a lot of great music, and you can absolutely argue that there's not a note out of place, but it's a slightly different thing - they're not taut in the same way. I feel like if they wrote PMU for DT12, it'd be six minutes long and sharp as a razor. DT12 sounds like they really focused on making an album where every note counts, whereas the others are fuller figured, but just happen to be albums where most every note's a pleasure?

I actually meant Awake more than the others, I said the others were more up to the listener if they are out of place or not, but Awake is certainly every bit as focused as DT12. Yes, it has the wacky Erotomania, but DT12 has Enigma Machine, and Awake has the unpredictable Scarred, DT12 has IT. I'm not saying the two albums are similar, but they are similar in the way they are extremely focused. Of course, DT12 has a more intentional we-ve-been-doing-this-for-more-than-20-years approach that obviously Awake hasn't, since the band was way younger and not that experienced, but aside from that, the end product is very similar in that particular way.

EDIT:
Oh, and I love Space Dye Vest, but have to admit I was surprised that there are that many people who like that song, it's incredibly different from anything DT has ever done and I get that it's not anyone cup of tea. Very moody song, only fits on very specific occasions.

[BlobVanDam]

TROAE is a great song, and probably my 2nd favourite of the 12SS, but I do agree some of the transitions are abrupt. I just don't personally think those transitions weaken the song in any way. I actually love the sudden stop for the keyboard solo, with that little pixie unison fill bit.
On the other hand, there's TSF, where the transitions are so abrupt and copy/paste, that I do feel they severely weaken the track to make it just feel like a medley.

I love that little keyboard section!

TSF is probably my 4th on 12SS. As a standalone song, I could see it being pretty inconsistent. But as a finale to the 12SS, I think it does everything it was meant to do. All of the reprises, the mashups... Great! On BC&SL? Kind of a chore to get through. In this song's case, the individual parts (especially the last 3-4 minutes, damn what an ending!) make up for its standalone inconsistency.

It certainly does work a lot better in the context of the whole 12SS, something which surprised me a little given my opinion of it as a standalone song. The original sections are good, and all of the reprisals and variations of old themes are well done, it's largely the transitions that bring it down for me, and it is a bit padded. But the few occasions I've taken the time to blast the 12SS in one go, it gets the job done.

[Viking of the Sagas]

I think that the new music video is mediocre at best.

[jakepriest]

I think that the new music video is mediocre at best.

I think liking it would be more controversial.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Yeah the new video is pretty rough.

[King Postwhore]

Are you guys expecting a well produced video with minimal backing from a band that does not have he money backing like a Lady Gaga ect...


Have some common sense will you folks.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

No, just a decent one. JP does not have to appear in a video in various costumes, wildly gyrating his hips for me to consider it a "well produced video."

[jakepriest]

I'm expecting it to not be cringeworthy and actually make some sense, yes.

[King Postwhore]

No, just a decent one. JP does not have to appear in a video in various costumes, wildly gyrating his hips for me to consider it a "well produced video."

The money from the record company backing the video you young fool.  Not the Lady Gaga stuff.

I'm expecting it to not be cringeworthy and actually make some sense, yes.

And video's making sense?!  What planet are you from?  You have seen music video's right?!

[jakepriest]

I don't quite see how the video is making any sense at all. Please enlighten me Mr. Planet. 

[Jaffa]

I think that the new music video is mediocre at best.

I think liking it would be more controversial.

Fair enough.

Controversial opinion of the day: I like the Enigma Machine video. 

[rumborak]

I think that the new music video is mediocre at best.

My theory is that the choreographer never actually heard the tune. Maybe he was told the title and then went from there.

[King Postwhore]

I absolutely love that album cover!

But seriously.  Most videos storyline have nothing to do with the song meaning.  I don't expect a band like DT to put money into a video that will not bare the fruit it should.  Not too much exposure for a prog metal band on TV these days and only the core audience will watch it on line.

[MoraWintersoul]

JP does not have to appear in a video in various costumes, wildly gyrating his hips for me to consider it a "well produced video."

In my book, he absolutely does. Twerk baby twerk.

[GentlemanofDread]

I'm with Mora, that sounds like money 

[BlobVanDam]

I think that the new music video is mediocre at best.

My theory is that the choreographer never actually heard the tune. Maybe he was told the title and then went from there.

The way it was edited with the slow-mos, and effects suggests to me there wasn't any kind of sync.
If I was watching that video without knowing months in advance that a dance group was apparently choreographing to a DT song, I wouldn't have thought that the dancers were supposed o be syncing to the song. It just appears that they're part of the video's subject matter, and I don't know how dancers relate to a high energy instrumental track named after a device used to send encoded messages during WW2. If even we find this video bizarre, I can only imagine what anyone outside of this forum will think. I don't think this video will benefit DT in any way.