Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 824448 times)

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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4025 on: March 08, 2014, 06:54:01 AM »
JOB = JLB ?

It's obviously James O'Brie, LaBrie's Scottish counterpart.
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Offline robwebster

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4026 on: March 08, 2014, 06:57:59 AM »
I am amazed at how few people agree with me in calling LALP the best JOB performance since 94 in terms of clarity and healthy power.
If I've not said it, it's only because I didn't think it much needed stating! I mean, I think the default position must be that it's between Luna Park and Score, and I agree, I think he does more interesting stuff on LaLP. Plus, the setlist's miles better.

(Although the climax of Octavarium is an utterly incredible moment, more notable than any single part of Luna Park.)

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4027 on: March 08, 2014, 07:00:53 AM »
For me it's easily Score, since, as I have said earlier in this thread, I'm not crazy about his new technique. He's now using too much grit for my taste, and often grit in sections that I would rather hear without it.
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Offline GasparXR

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4028 on: March 08, 2014, 07:19:28 AM »
For me it's easily Score, since, as I have said earlier in this thread, I'm not crazy about his new technique. He's now using too much grit for my taste, and often grit in sections that I would rather hear without it.

I see your point, although I personally like that. The only time I think he could use more is on The Shattered Fortress. Early in this tour it didn't sound very good, although the more recent shows sound a lot better, even without the grit he employed on the album, so I got used to it.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4029 on: March 08, 2014, 11:11:08 AM »
JOB = JLB ?

It's obviously James O'Brie, LaBrie's Scottish counterpart.

I do believe that's Irish.
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Offline Invisible

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4030 on: March 08, 2014, 01:26:09 PM »
JOB = JLB ?

It's obviously James O'Brie, LaBrie's Scottish counterpart.

I do believe that's Irish.
Yeah, I would think that the Scottish should be McBrie or something like that :P.

I'd take Luna Park JLB over Score any day of the week. His voice at Score still suffers from James' cat-when-you-try-to-put-it-in-water syndrome from time to time. Too screechy for my taste. He did a good job on the more melodic tracks though. I think the ideal JLB would be the melodic Score + raw Luna Park. Of course, the perfect James was right after they released Awake, that food poisoning I think it's one of the tragic events in music history :'(. On the other hand, if it weren't for that we probably wouldn't get this version, who also rawks, so maybe it was a blessing in disguise in the long run...

My whole point is that James now, while he doesn't impress that much, he is more more solid overall these days than ever, his high notes are great for dramatic effects, but when they become regular stuff you want to kill him ASAP. In that regard, his job at Illumination Theory is a strong candidate for a nomination at 'best studio performance in DT ever', he does everything in the dosage requiered, no more, no less. Badass, melodic, raw, high notes, all in the appropiate places.

Offline ReaperKK

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4031 on: March 08, 2014, 04:18:15 PM »
SC is actually in top-half DT albums for me.

Catching up on the thread when I saw this post and I actually remember how I had a moment last year where I realized that SC is my favorite album.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4032 on: March 09, 2014, 04:07:25 AM »
SC is actually in top-half DT albums for me.

Catching up on the thread when I saw this post and I actually remember how I had a moment last year where I realized that SC is my favorite album.

Did it last?
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Offline XB0BX

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4033 on: March 09, 2014, 08:10:07 AM »
I actually quite enjoy SC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4034 on: March 09, 2014, 08:17:30 AM »
SC has faded for me over time.  I play it a lot less then other DT albums.
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Offline Tis BOOLsheet

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4035 on: March 09, 2014, 02:17:13 PM »
It's not about what I (personally) want to call it. It's what it is.

I agree the microphone amplified it. That's what a microphone does: amplifies whatever you put into it. It's pretty clear the softer dynamics of these songs are making him uncomfortable. The breathy vocal on the Blu-ray is a symptom of that. Another issue is that he is hanging on consonants entirely too long. As a vocalist you should not be sustaining consonants-- you sustains the vowels. Yet, when I listen to the Silent Man every consonant, is being sustained. "ppppprrrraaay they wont last" or "behind the stained glasssssss"

That is singing 101. If you took any basic chorus class or vocal lesson, and you sang like that, you would get corrected immediately.

The effect of the compression was minimal, if anything. The microphone didn't create anything that wasn't there. It just brought to the forefront a number of problems that were going to give you this end product no matter what.

First of all, are you saying that LaBrie's breathy vocals were more breathy than they ever have been? Because all the previous times he'd done breathy vocals, yes, they sounded breathy, but they still sounded like a vocalist singing breathy vocals. On Luna Park, it sounded very unnatural, so no, it wasn't JUST LaBrie that was the problem.

As for sustaining consonants over vowels, that's just laughable. I know some singes for how sustaining their consonants is their signature, it's what makes their style unique and it sounds just fine.
I know you don't like LaBrie as a vocalist, but this is just silly nitpicking.

I am not totally sure what the point in your first paragraph is. Is it that because it was worse on that particular night it must have been due to a problem with the equipment? He has sung that way in the past, and on that particular night it was far more prominent during songs in which he tried to sing with softer dynamics (i.e., the slower pieces in the set list). It does not logically follow that there was some "unnatural" element making it worse. Nor does it sound that way.

In regard to the second paragraph, the laughable part, really, is that you think this is some obscure standard I've arbitrarily demanded he adhere to. In fact, it is really something that vocalists learn in Singing 101 or in any formal instruction. It isn't something I invented or plucked out of thin air to be "nitpicky." It is a basic "rule" of our singing traditions, that in order to get a clear sustained sound, you sing VOWELS, not consonants. Try singing an A and then a K. You'll see what I mean. No doubt there are times when "breaking the rules" is artistically freeing/desirable/innovative etc. But it can also be just bad delivery and technique-- and it ends up ruining the performance. Unfortunately, it is unequivocally clear that this is not one of those times when it's just artistry.



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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4036 on: March 09, 2014, 04:51:27 PM »
I am not totally sure what the point in your first paragraph is. Is it that because it was worse on that particular night it must have been due to a problem with the equipment? He has sung that way in the past, and on that particular night it was far more prominent during songs in which he tried to sing with softer dynamics (i.e., the slower pieces in the set list). It does not logically follow that there was some "unnatural" element making it worse. Nor does it sound that way.
But it does. He's done plenty of breathy singing in the past, and while yes, it has always sounded breathy, it never sounded like he was blowing actual air into the microphone. This was the only time I've ever heard where the breath actually sounded like it was muting the notes he was singing, so yes, I have to conclude that that particular effect was the result of the equipment, and not because James decided for the first time ever to actually blow air right into the microphone.
Considering that he sounded just fine singing those songs and quiet parts, when I've seen them live during that tour.

In fact, listen to the Happy Holidays release, and listen to Through My Words. He's still breathy on it, but it doesn't sound nearly as bad as the LALP release. So there ya go.

No doubt there are times when "breaking the rules" is artistically freeing/desirable/innovative etc. But it can also be just bad delivery and technique-- and it ends up ruining the performance. Unfortunately, it is unequivocally clear that this is not one of those times when it's just artistry.

Well, regardless whether you chalk it up to artistry or bad technique, I don't think he did anything during that performance to "ruin" it. That's why I said you're being nitpicky about it.
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Offline ReaperKK

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4037 on: March 11, 2014, 07:48:53 AM »
SC is actually in top-half DT albums for me.

Catching up on the thread when I saw this post and I actually remember how I had a moment last year where I realized that SC is my favorite album.

Did it last?

yea it did actually. I find that it's a good all around album. The nineties albums sound a bit too dated for me and most of the current albums feel like a chore to listen through all the way. SC has a good flow and a good collection of songs.

Offline puppyonacid

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4038 on: March 11, 2014, 08:04:57 AM »
I'm a JLB fan. He's an great singist and seems like a really fun, stand up guy

But!

There is no forgiving how he pronounces the word "wait" from the line "And sometimes all I want to do is wait" during surrounded on LALP. He manages somehow to say it with a silent "h". Whhhait.

Any Family Guy fans must surely be familiar with Stewies pronunciation of "CoolWhip"

Same thing. Quite irritating once you notice it.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 09:24:48 AM by puppyonacid »
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Offline RodrigoAltaf

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4039 on: March 11, 2014, 08:06:51 AM »
I'm a JLB fan. He's an great singist I'd seems like a really fun, stand up guy

But!

There is no forgiving how he pronounces the word "wait" from the line "And sometimes all I want to do is wait" during surrounded on LALP. He manages somehow to say it with a silent "h". Whhhait.

Any Family Guy fans must surely be familiar with Stewies pronunciation of "CoolWhip"

Same thing. Quite irritating once you notice it.

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Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4040 on: March 11, 2014, 08:21:47 AM »
WWAAAIIIIM ALIVE AGAIN
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4041 on: March 11, 2014, 12:50:11 PM »
WWAAAIIIIM ALIVE AGAIN

Or for the OIALT fans:  WWWAAAIREMEMBER A TIME.... MY FRAIL VIRGIN MAIND...
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4042 on: March 11, 2014, 02:33:07 PM »

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4043 on: March 11, 2014, 02:56:30 PM »
I'm a big JLB fan, but the thing I absolutely find the most annoying is the "AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY AM READY" in TROAE on LALP and in (spoiler alert?) The Shattered Fortress on this tour. It should've just been "IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AM READY" just like on the CD. The "AYYYYYY" sounds ridiculous

Offline rumborak

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4044 on: March 11, 2014, 03:19:11 PM »
DT has always been somewhat pronunciation-challenged.
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Offline Invisible

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4045 on: March 11, 2014, 10:03:34 PM »
I'm a big JLB fan, but the thing I absolutely find the most annoying is the "AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY AM READY" in TROAE on LALP and in (spoiler alert?) The Shattered Fortress on this tour. It should've just been "IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AM READY" just like on the CD. The "AYYYYYY" sounds ridiculous
Yeah, that was a little annoying for me too, but he's a pirate! It's "AYE! am reaaaadyyyyyy" :yarr

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4046 on: March 11, 2014, 11:12:35 PM »
DT has always been somewhat pronunciation-challenged.

Never had a problem with it.
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4047 on: March 12, 2014, 12:21:40 AM »
DT has always been somewhat pronunciation-challenged.

Never had a problem with it.

Me neither. I will admit, JLB has a a weird voice, but for me it's in a good way.
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4048 on: March 12, 2014, 12:54:28 AM »
Me neither. I will admit, JLB has a a weird voice, but for me it's in a good way.

His voice is like progressive music. It takes a while to get used to, but once you are used to it, it's just the best.
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4049 on: March 12, 2014, 05:56:56 AM »
I'm a big JLB fan, but the thing I absolutely find the most annoying is the "AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY AM READY" in TROAE on LALP and in (spoiler alert?) The Shattered Fortress on this tour. It should've just been "IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AM READY" just like on the CD. The "AYYYYYY" sounds ridiculous
Yeah, that was a little annoying for me too, but he's a pirate! It's "AYE! am reaaaadyyyyyy" :yarr
:lol

Speaking of the Luna Park version of TROAE, the way he says "envious" in the second verse is pretty ridiculous (in a good way).

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4050 on: March 12, 2014, 09:55:54 AM »
I'm a big JLB fan, but the thing I absolutely find the most annoying is the "AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY AM READY" in TROAE on LALP and in (spoiler alert?) The Shattered Fortress on this tour. It should've just been "IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AM READY" just like on the CD. The "AYYYYYY" sounds ridiculous

I know, I was what the hell, its like he made the switch from the I to Am more easier.

That there is how I feel about the loud buzzing in LTL on the holiday release, its a great performance but once that part hits, it hurts my ears, and is unbearable. The worst part of the holiday release is that buzz.
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Offline Volante99

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4051 on: March 12, 2014, 08:15:24 PM »
Here's a controversial opinion for ya'll;

I absolutely cannot STAND what DT is doing to the ending of Space Dye Vest for this tour.

The outro to the album version is one of my favorite DT moments ever with that nice low chord progression by Petrucci that shakes my speakers and gives me goosebumps, and that tasty synth melody by Moore. Great great ending to Awake.

Unfortunately, someone in the band decided the song needed to go into "epic world domination mode" for the tour, so Labrie smacks you in the face with some notes he can barely sing and then Petrucci does a unison on the melody with Jordan and then wanks around (and often meanders into the wrong key, btw). Ugh  :facepalm:


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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4052 on: March 12, 2014, 08:32:10 PM »
Space-Dye Vest is just another song. They extend and expand and play around with other songs as they wish, and Space-Dye Vest shouldn't be exempt from it, if they want to do something creative with it.

That being said, you are well within your rights to dislike it.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4053 on: March 12, 2014, 09:39:18 PM »
I gotta be perfectly honest, I think the song is a bit lost on them anyway. I mean, I'll probably still enjoy it when I see it in a few weeks, but from what I've heard off YouTube, it's almost more of a cover song then anything else. So, from that angle I probably won't even mind if they wail it out at the end.
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4054 on: March 13, 2014, 12:32:35 AM »
Space-Dye Vest is my favorite DT song and I was slightly concerned when I heard about the changes they've made to the ending, but they didn't bother me when I saw them play it. Actually, I always thought that if SDV ever got played live, JP could play the string melody on guitar since Jordan would have to play the piano part at the same time. Of course JP adds a bit of shred into it, but not too much and it doesn't ruin the song IMO. I'd say this version is a million times more tasteful than the 2007 wankfest version of Surrounded.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4055 on: March 13, 2014, 01:02:37 AM »
Here's a controversial opinion for ya'll;

I absolutely cannot STAND what DT is doing to the ending of Space Dye Vest for this tour.

The outro to the album version is one of my favorite DT moments ever with that nice low chord progression by Petrucci that shakes my speakers and gives me goosebumps, and that tasty synth melody by Moore. Great great ending to Awake.


It's a good ending to a studio album. It's not a good ending to a song that is in the middle of a live set, where you would entice the audience to applaud.

Context is the key.

Offline robwebster

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4056 on: March 13, 2014, 02:08:19 AM »
Here's a controversial opinion for ya'll;

I absolutely cannot STAND what DT is doing to the ending of Space Dye Vest for this tour.

The outro to the album version is one of my favorite DT moments ever with that nice low chord progression by Petrucci that shakes my speakers and gives me goosebumps, and that tasty synth melody by Moore. Great great ending to Awake.
...and they've already done that, and done that perfectly, and committed it to CD!

Everyone always feared that Space Dye Vest wouldn't transfer to a live environment. I think those fears proved largely unfounded, and they've generally done an excellent job, but I can imagine that ending, which sounds huge and climactic on the album, wouldn't sound so magical in the context of three hours' keyboard wizardry. There's a way that it sounds, which isn't necessarily down to the notes played - Blind Faith has the same thing, where there's a sort of aura about it that's in its mix and its warmth as much as any of the notes played, and they've never quite been able to reproduce it live.

To put it another way - why make an inferior copy when you might be able to achieve something that's incredible in its own right? When the live album comes out, for some people that's going to be the definitive version of SDV.  It's going to miss its mark for others - yourself included, regrettably! - but I don't think there's much point in slavishly replicating a song like Space Dye note for note, and I think they've made it sound more Dream Theater and more a part of the album without betraying the soul of the original.

I gotta be perfectly honest, I think the song is a bit lost on them anyway.
Cripes, really? You think it takes a level of musical intelligence beyond John Petrucci to appreciate a song as deep and sophisticated as Space-Dye Vest, and you think you are that musical intelligence? They don't sit about listening to music that sounds like Dream Theater all day long - they've got range, and breadth of taste! SDV is well within that remit. If they didn't understand it, I'm not sure why you think they'd have put it on Awake ahead of Eve.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4057 on: March 13, 2014, 04:29:34 AM »
I'm a big JLB fan, but the thing I absolutely find the most annoying is the "AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY AM READY" in TROAE on LALP and in (spoiler alert?) The Shattered Fortress on this tour. It should've just been "IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII AM READY" just like on the CD. The "AYYYYYY" sounds ridiculous
Yeah, that was a little annoying for me too, but he's a pirate! It's "AYE! am reaaaadyyyyyy" :yarr

This is the reason I don't listen to Luna Parks version of TROAE, but I think you just made it better for me.. I can deal with the AYYY now.  :yarr  :biggrin:

Offline rumborak

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4058 on: March 13, 2014, 08:51:02 AM »
I gotta be perfectly honest, I think the song is a bit lost on them anyway.
Cripes, really? You think it takes a level of musical intelligence beyond John Petrucci to appreciate a song as deep and sophisticated as Space-Dye Vest, and you think you are that musical intelligence? They don't sit about listening to music that sounds like Dream Theater all day long - they've got range, and breadth of taste! SDV is well within that remit. If they didn't understand it, I'm not sure why you think they'd have put it on Awake ahead of Eve.

Let me give you a family pack of chill pills:

 :chill :chill :chill
 :chill :chill :chill
 :chill :chill :chill

In my ever-so-humble opinion, JR is the main offender in not being able to play the song "correctly". The song calls for an mood that I have *never* heard in any other DT song: lethargy. The kind of lethargy you experience when you broke up with somebody. SDV on CD captures this emotion perfectly, but when hearing the JLB+JR version a while ago, I have to be honest and say: JR can not play it.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 08:56:59 AM by rumborak »
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #4059 on: March 13, 2014, 10:02:18 AM »
In my ever-so-humble opinion, JR is the main offender in not being able to play the song "correctly". The song calls for an mood that I have *never* heard in any other DT song: lethargy. The kind of lethargy you experience when you broke up with somebody. SDV on CD captures this emotion perfectly, but when hearing the JLB+JR version a while ago, I have to be honest and say: JR can not play it.

But again, whether he can or not, I have to go back to what erwinrafael and rob said. Even if JR could (and I'm not saying he can't) play it and capture the lethargic mood of it that it was on the album, would he even want to do something like that?
It's not the 90s anymore, and concert halls aren't packed with a bunch of depressed people, looking to hear depressing music. Heck, even in the 90s, that wasn't DT's crowd. So had the song captured its original intention at the very end of an epic Dream Theater concert, it would do a pretty good job of depressing a crowd of people that just had a fantastic time.
Now, I'm not saying a song can't be dramatic, or that the end of a concert has to capture a happy mood or anything, but even something like ITNOG, while it might be a song about horrible things and while it does have a solemn, desperate chorus, it's still very epic and anthemic in a way. And I feel like that's what DT is doing with SDV in this case. They're 'converting' it into a proper live format in order to still deliver the song we all know, but to give it some LIFE. Because the original, really does do a good job of making you feel so numb you're almost dead.
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