Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 824792 times)

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Offline jammindude

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3885 on: February 24, 2014, 08:43:55 AM »
But even those lyrics show a far greater maturity than, "Forevermore....into the night....blistering..."  *twitch*

Question: do people have a problem with the lyrics of Constant Motion in general, or is it literally just that one part that bothers everybody?  Personally, while I fully admit that the quoted line feels a bit ridiculous and out of place, I actually like the rest of the song, lyrically.  I'm just curious as to how other people feel about it.  Is it just the one cheesy line that ruins it, or what?

By the way, jammindude, I'm not trying to single you out, it's just that your mentioning it reminded me of it.

For me, I guess it's because I think I actually wrote that exact line once...     ...after hearing my first Saxon album when I was 12.   *cringe*

I love Saxon btw....but imagine an inspired 12 yr old trying to write his first heavy metal song after listening to a Saxon album.   It's comically bad.    So that's the image I get in my head whenever I hear Constant Motion.    But that's obviously a far more personal reason than anyone else is going to have.
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3886 on: February 24, 2014, 09:24:53 AM »
Well, I can understand that.  I just think that the rest of the lyrics are pretty good.  I feel like he wrote a pretty solid set of lyrics, and then decided that the chorus wasn't quite metal enough and tacked on the silly bit. 
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3887 on: February 24, 2014, 09:56:30 AM »
..."Traveling through both space and time......you get yours and I got mine"..... :lol

I'm not a huge fan of the lyrics to CM.....they are actually pretty weak compared to what MP has produced in the past. He's always been a great lyric writer and it seemed like he and JP took this album off as far as the amount of thought that went into the lyrics on any of the songs.
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Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3888 on: February 24, 2014, 11:31:40 AM »
I love the lyrics on CM. Maybe not every single line, but the "Focus Here, Focus There" section, I think is pretty awesome.
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Offline Invisible

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3889 on: February 24, 2014, 12:25:27 PM »
It seems I took a couple of days off and this thread turned from "Systematic Chaos is the best" to "Remaking Systematic Chaos" :lol Sorry guys, but for me at least ITPOE works hell of a lot better as one song that scattered in pieces throughout the album. It could work, and it could make an interesting "Director's version" sort of remake, but it would need some HUGE work on the music. And on the other topics, let's just say that off the great debate I'm more in 425 side. Beautiful Agony without the previous and latter sections almost loses meaning. Actually, A Nightmare To Remember is one of the songs that's not among my favourites but I can say that's pretty well constructed(I would have done the last part differently but it works as it is), unlike IT which is among my favourites but I feel it could've been even better if some sections were actually longer.

Oh, and I'm sorry but You Not Me is just a poor song, not the worst thing in the world or anything but I guess the worst feature of it is that it's so mediocre that it's not even worth hating, it kind of those persons that you pity them more than anything else. It would be fun to see live though, just to see the fans reaction, some of them might have never even heard the song and think it's a new one to appear in the next album, that could be even funnier "OMG!! With MP this would've never happened!!!" :lol.

Constant Motion has overall good lyrics with a few :facepalm: moments, but all in all is a good song. I think as far as SC goes I think they just wanted to dial down the "ambitiousness"(I can't find the proper word for it) of the lyrics for more fun or light topics, just like the music.

Oh, and some random thought that just came to me(and perhaps my first real controversial opinion here): I think if the DT catalog(aside from WDADU) were released backwards instead of how it is, I&W would've gotten A LOT of hate instead of the praise it gets :P("that Metropolis middle section is awful and it drags the whole down" comes to mind :P). Sometimes I think some DT albums gets hated just for having DT name on it, among fans and non fans, and their only fault is being compared to the other albums.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3890 on: February 24, 2014, 12:28:20 PM »
Right, here's mine. In the Presence of Enemies shouldn't be a song. It should be three. How much better is this Systematic Chaos:

...

Same goes for A Nightmare to Remember. I'd Hell's Kitchen the shit out of that bad boy. See also --

...

Rob, I love you dearly, but just NO!  ITPOE is great as-is.  Maybe it would benefit by having a minute or so trimmed out.  But I still feel that it would lose more than it would gain by doing so.  Top notch song as is.  And, IMO, if you simply cut Prophets and Ministry from Systematic Chaos and add in something that approaches the quality of the rest of the album, SC becomes a top 3 DT album. 

And Nightmare is fantastic.  If I could re-do the song myself, the ONLY things I would change would simply be to remove the "RAWWWWWWWWWRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!" and the blast beat (or have a guest drummer who can do better blast beats step in).  Do that, and it is just about perfect and is potentially a top-3 DT song.  As it is, it still falls just outside my top 10.


I'll take up the task of defending Nightmare, then. The midsection needs to be in the middle of that song because it's part of the story arc. It needs to be there just as much as Another World needs to be in A Change of Seasons, which isn't nearly as cohesive (or as good) a song as Nightmare (I realize that that statement is not at all relevant, I just like to anger people). Without each other, the midsection is a moderately strong ballad (only moderately because it's not really close to being a complete song on its own, at least by DT standards), and the rest of the song is a moderately strong prog metal song. Together, A Nightmare to Remember is a genius epic that boasts an incredible dramatic arc and is simply one of the very best songs in the band's entire discography.

This is not at all comparable to Hell's Kitchen/Burning My Soul, where those two were kind of duct taped together. Hell's Kitchen served no purpose to the dramatic arc of Burning My Soul and was just sort of a random and unnecessary four minute buildup into the final verse and chorus. The midsection is completely necessary to A Nightmare to Remember's dramatic arc. For one thing, without it, Nightmare is a 13-minute, straight-ahead metal song. Can anyone name a single instance of that working well? The only quiet moments, in that instance, would be like a 20 second piano intro and another 20 second keyboard bit later. It also irreparably damages the song vocally and lyrically, because you lose out on the contrast between the "weird trippy hospital scene" and the big, emotional "dealing with the psychological impacts of the accident" scene. This is true just in terms of vocal style as well as in the lyrics. Without the midsection, you're going from a very heavy operatic/gruff vocal section into a very very heavy, very gruff vocal section. That's not much of a contrast compared to going from heavy operatic/gruff into soft, somewhat trippy into very very heavy, very gruff. Taking out the midsection just kills "Day after day," and, though I know that so many people dislike it, that section does not deserve to be killed.

All my stuff about working with the dramatic arc actually apply moderately well to ITPOE, which I think works better as one song, but I would not go so far as to say that it is "perfect" (I wouldn't even say that about ANTR), and it's certainly not nearly as good in my estimation as Nightmare at providing a dramatic arc.

Yes, this!  ALL of this!
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3891 on: February 24, 2014, 01:12:31 PM »
Couple things bother me about ITPOE:
1. The way the song is divided up. I feel like having the entire remainder of Systematic Chaos between Part 1 and Part 2 really breaks the momentum, making Part 2 seem less interesting from the getgo.
2. "Dark Master". I really feel like they needed to go more evil. The song's about the devil, right? Maybe John felt it would be taking things too far to use one of his various, more poetic names, but I felt like it would have really knocked the chorus out of the park. "Dark Master" over and over again just seems unlyrical, and kind of silly.
3. The section where James LaBrie snarls the psalm over the MP gang vocals. They didn't quite pull it off, in my opinion.  It was a good idea, it just doesn't quite work out.

Now, onto ANtR:
1. The lyrics. This is more of a Black Clouds-level complaint. A lot of fans wanted JP to do more "realistic" lyrics after Systematic Chaos. John did just that, but ironically three of his four songs on BC&SL (ANtR, ARoP, TCoT) simultaneously manage to feel both more realistic and more trivial than their SC counterparts. I have to say, I think BC&SL is JP's low point, lyrically.
2. It's too long I feel like it just goes on and on. Especially after "Beautiful Agony", I kind of want the song to go somewhere other than where it does.

Note that I have not mentioned the two obvious sections: "Day after day...", and the blastbeats. That is because I think both of these issues are just consequences of my two real gripes with the song. I think Portnoy's vocal part works stylistically, it just winds up sounding weird because the lyrics are not really very good. As for the blastbeats - my issue with them is related to how long the song is. Had they come in earlier, they would have sounded cool. But by the time they come in, I've heard the main riff repeated several times already, and not much else can make it sound interesting anymore.

Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3892 on: February 24, 2014, 01:26:50 PM »
I always listen to ITPOE all together. I usually just start SC with Forsaken.
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Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3893 on: February 24, 2014, 03:49:44 PM »
The thing about ITPOE is that Pt. 1 works extremely well as an album opener, while Pt. 2 works extremely well as an album closer. And the both neat and odd thing about it is that the song as a whole--parts 1 and 2 combined--flows pretty well when played consecutively. At the same time, I feel that going from Pt. 1 --> Forsaken and TMOLS --> Pt. 2 flows pretty well, too. The momentum in both cases is paced almost perfectly. I have to commend DT for having the ability to pull that off. Some serious Wish You Were Here shit going on with that.

I also don't think any part of ITPOE should be removed in any way. As a whole, it's a definite top 20--if not top 10--DT song for me. Lyrics? Not some of Petrucci's best, I'll say that. But I quite like them. There's some pretty awesome moments in there.

In regarding SC, if some of the songs in between were better, I could see myself calling it a top 5 DT album at the very least.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3894 on: February 25, 2014, 06:58:12 AM »
Quote
Actually, I can do that, can't I? I might play about with the stems. This will be messy!

The musical issue with doing that (the one having nothing to do with my personal judgement of the song), though, is that the midsection goes directly into the solo section and therefore Beautiful Agony as a standalone song wouldn't end properly. I don't have the stems but I did try once to make a standalone edit just to see how it sounded, and I just couldn't figure out what to do with the ending. I think I wound up fading it out, but as I recall it didn't sound too great that way (I think because I had to fade the chorus, like while they were singing).
I'll come to the rest shortly, but first - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6E5kDU5cQQ Here you go! Not mine, regrettably. It's A Bullet from the Night I want to fiddle about with.

That sounds like a Scenes out take. Such a shame that it's jammed in the middle of a quite repetitive metal bluster. Could have easily been two great songs instead of one OK one.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3895 on: February 25, 2014, 06:58:34 AM »
I think my issue with breaking the songs up really stems from Repentance, Prophets of War, and The Ministry of Lost Souls basically being duds. By the time you get to Part 2, you've already listened to 30 minutes of pretty lackluster music, and patience with whatever comes next is running thin.


Offline rumborak

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3896 on: February 27, 2014, 05:40:53 PM »
My controversial opinion of the day is, I think DT has become too homogeneous for their own good, where at this point they have a problem with sounding sterile. And maybe more controversial, that trend for me started with JR. Jordan was always revered for his flawless execution of the trickiest passages, but his Achilles heel is that imprecise playing that some songs need to convey the emotion (case in point, his rendition of SDV).
Now, with MM, they seem to have found essentially the same person behind the drumkit. Flawlessly executing difficult passages, but more often than is comfortable being mentioned in the same sentence as the word "drum machine". And what's worse, when you listen to any interview or video of MM about his drumming, they're essentially treatises.
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Offline vbrodrigues95

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3897 on: February 27, 2014, 06:59:28 PM »
- I love BC&SL
- Hell's Kitchen/Lines in the sand are the best from FII
- I don't like Pull Me Under that much
- I think Never Enough is a great song, so is Innocence Faded
- Can't decide between Take the time and Learning to live for the best of I&W, but definitely not Metropolis pt. 1(still great song)
- Love The Dark Eternal Night

Don't even know if it's all that controversial, but why not post anyway  :P

Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3898 on: February 27, 2014, 07:14:39 PM »
- I love BC&SL
- Hell's Kitchen/Lines in the sand are the best from FII
- I don't like Pull Me Under that much
- I think Never Enough is a great song, so is Innocence Faded
- Can't decide between Take the time and Learning to live for the best of I&W, but definitely not Metropolis pt. 1(still great song)
- Love The Dark Eternal Night

Don't even know if it's all that controversial, but why not post anyway  :P

The bolded are the ones I think are probably controversial, and oddly enough, I agree with all of them, excepting that my favorite from I&W is Another Day, with Take The Time coming in second.

edit: Wait, no. My above statement stands, but I don't think the one about I&W is controversial. Gah, posting while tired. :P
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Offline Grizz

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3899 on: February 27, 2014, 08:43:58 PM »
- I love BC&SL
- Hell's Kitchen/Lines in the sand are the best from FII
- I don't like Pull Me Under that much
- I think Never Enough is a great song, so is Innocence Faded
- Can't decide between Take the time and Learning to live for the best of I&W, but definitely not Metropolis pt. 1(still great song)
- Love The Dark Eternal Night

Don't even know if it's all that controversial, but why not post anyway  :P
Yes, Yes, I enjoy the song but it started to get old quick (my Dad never put it in iTunes, I finally started listening to it from a bootleg) and I imagine it got stale after being on MTV, Never Enough is decent enough, definitely not 8VM's worst, IF kicks ass, LTL, duh, it's good in concert, I personally am not big on the incoherent instrumental.
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Offline XB0BX

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3900 on: February 27, 2014, 08:46:46 PM »
I&W, SC and BC&SL are the 3 best DT albums BY FAR. Number 4 isn't even close. If those 3 albums didn't exist, I wouldn't be a DT fan. I don't think SFaM is very good, nor do I like Octavarium or Awake.

Offline Grizz

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3901 on: February 27, 2014, 09:26:38 PM »
I wouldn't go that far. I really need to give SC a thorough listen through, but I never got into it. BC&SL is excellent, but I particularly enjoy SFAM and Awake.
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Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3902 on: February 27, 2014, 09:49:22 PM »
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3903 on: February 27, 2014, 10:13:15 PM »
My controversial opinion of the day is, I think DT has become too homogeneous for their own good, where at this point they have a problem with sounding sterile. And maybe more controversial, that trend for me started with JR. Jordan was always revered for his flawless execution of the trickiest passages, but his Achilles heel is that imprecise playing that some songs need to convey the emotion (case in point, his rendition of SDV).
Now, with MM, they seem to have found essentially the same person behind the drumkit. Flawlessly executing difficult passages, but more often than is comfortable being mentioned in the same sentence as the word "drum machine". And what's worse, when you listen to any interview or video of MM about his drumming, they're essentially treatises.

The only flaw with JR that I see is that they've restrained him too much on recent albums, and are missing a huge element I love about SFAM/SDOIT.
Whenever I hear anything by one of the DT guys outside of DT (ie. JR/JP/JLB), I often think "they'd never do this in DT now", whereas I think a progressive band with such diverse players should consider nothing off limits. I think they need to write music without any preconception of what fans say they want, and just do whatever awesomely wacky thing they want to.
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Offline NotePad

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3904 on: February 27, 2014, 11:55:33 PM »
Has Mike Portnoy ever played in a way similar to Danny Carey, by any chance? Judging from some reactions to an earlier comment, I get the feeling people would not be very impressed had MP ever played some table in DT songs. I don't think MP is any less of a drummer then Danny Carey, if i happened to give that impression. But Danny Carey is my favorite drummer because of those things, he does things most other rock or metal drummers would never dare. I just think a drummer in DT should not be afraid to experiment like that too. Are there any other metal drummers who are similar to Carey in this way?

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3905 on: February 28, 2014, 06:31:27 AM »
My controversial opinion of the day is, I think DT has become too homogeneous for their own good, where at this point they have a problem with sounding sterile. And maybe more controversial, that trend for me started with JR. Jordan was always revered for his flawless execution of the trickiest passages, but his Achilles heel is that imprecise playing that some songs need to convey the emotion (case in point, his rendition of SDV).
Now, with MM, they seem to have found essentially the same person behind the drumkit. Flawlessly executing difficult passages, but more often than is comfortable being mentioned in the same sentence as the word "drum machine". And what's worse, when you listen to any interview or video of MM about his drumming, they're essentially treatises.

The only flaw with JR that I see is that they've restrained him too much on recent albums, and are missing a huge element I love about SFAM/SDOIT.
Whenever I hear anything by one of the DT guys outside of DT (ie. JR/JP/JLB), I often think "they'd never do this in DT now", whereas I think a progressive band with such diverse players should consider nothing off limits. I think they need to write music without any preconception of what fans say they want, and just do whatever awesomely wacky thing they want to.

I agree with half of this. Overall, I think a DT unfettered by what "DT should sound like" is the best DT. That said, I'm not completely sold on unfettered JR. I loved, loved, loved SDOIT (which seems to be his most outspoken release with DT), and I really liked Levin Minneman Rudess, but some of JR's solo records are really just way too kooky sounding for me.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 06:53:12 AM by Perpetual Change »

Offline Outcrier

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3906 on: February 28, 2014, 09:12:30 AM »
The only flaw with JR that I see is that they've restrained him too much on recent albums, and are missing a huge element I love about SFAM/SDOIT.
Whenever I hear anything by one of the DT guys outside of DT (ie. JR/JP/JLB), I often think "they'd never do this in DT now", whereas I think a progressive band with such diverse players should consider nothing off limits. I think they need to write music without any preconception of what fans say they want, and just do whatever awesomely wacky thing they want to.

What they did in SFAM/SDOIT stays in SFAM/SDOIT.
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3907 on: February 28, 2014, 09:46:43 AM »
Personally I would say Rudess is probably my least favorite of the DT keyboard players. I think Moore and Sherinian had a really nice subtlety to their sound, and it really worked well with the overall sound of the band. I really love what Rudess did on SFAM and SDOIT (both would be in my top3 DT albums), but it started to bother me on ToT and hasn't really changed since. It's not just Rudess though, I would argue that there was a shift in mentality in the whole band after SDOIT which was for the worse.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3908 on: February 28, 2014, 10:12:19 AM »
I can't pin JR down. On paper, he should be my favorite DT keyboardist - he loves classic prog as well as post rock, ambient, and other genres I love (you can't say the same for the other guys). He doesn't care much about the metal side of things. And he's obviously the most talented. And yet, his contributions often seem to fall short for me. I'm not sure what it is, whether he lacks a certain touch of the previous two players, or whether he just doesn't really enjoy playing the metal stuff. His contributions on LMR and Steven Wilson's albums are fantastic, so I sometimes suspect it's the metal thing that he just doesn't gel with as much.

Offline The Holy Tune

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3909 on: February 28, 2014, 10:38:50 AM »
Everyone knows what their so-called problem is: Marketing. Even though I don't think they should have any worries about it, they just kept getting more mainstream since SDOIT. The most complex creation was 8VM and that's mainly because of the self-titled song. And I saw that the record label wouldn't accept Jordan's creations, that has to be why the things kept sounding good but somehow lacking creativity. I wonder if they can stand up against the label and say "We want to make better things than we've been doing in almost over a decade, we need your full support."  :-\

Also I have to add that this was written on many DT fans' opinions. If you ask me, the last album is perfect and they are showing some GREAT signs of going back to do what they did best ;)

Offline robwebster

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3910 on: February 28, 2014, 11:58:28 AM »
I feel like anyone who's complaining that Dream Theater are homogenous these days hasn't really paid much attention to the new album. They stop for two minutes to play wind chimes!

I wasn't mega excited about the new album, because I thought they were sliding into a comfort zone, somewhere they'd said everything they needed to say. The new album's far more intense, far more heightened, they've properly challenged themselves as songwriters. The Bigger Picture sounds precious little like anything that came before - it sounds like fun., at the end, of all bands. That's not a sound I thought was in their repertoire. Proper anthemic pop, but sumptuous.

I rather think Mike Portnoy was the one who went in with preconceptions of what people would "accept" on a DT album, and I think BCSL suffered for it. ADToE sort of restated their identity - largely out of necessity - but I think all bets are off from here on out.

Offline GentlemanofDread

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3911 on: February 28, 2014, 12:10:02 PM »
Damn it Robwebster, every time you post, I find myself nodding my head and approving.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3912 on: February 28, 2014, 12:13:25 PM »
I feel like anyone who's complaining that Dream Theater are homogenous these days hasn't really paid much attention to the new album. They stop for two minutes to play wind chimes!
Eh, disagree completely. DT12 has its moments, but ultimately I think "homogenous" is the perfect way of describing their sound. There are no more spicey risky moments for me; just "safe" ones which 1.) sound a heck of a lot like  JP songs, and 2.) have obvious precedent in previous recordings. And... that's OK. For a band that's pushed the envelope as often as DT have, fine. You can't expect any artist to reinvent the wheel so many times. But I'd sure like it better if the direction was more open-ended and exploratory.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3913 on: February 28, 2014, 12:14:13 PM »
Damn it Robwebster, every time you post, I find myself nodding my head and approving.

He is known for having that effect on lesser spirits like you and me  :lol
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Offline PixelDream

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3914 on: February 28, 2014, 12:25:34 PM »
I used to regard Systematic Chaos as one of their low points, but in retrospect I do prefer it to ADTOE and DT12. It's kind of a wacky album, but at least it's not as generic sounding as ADTOE and DT12. To be clear: I like those two albums but I do think they're a bit too generic for their own good.
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Offline robwebster

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3915 on: February 28, 2014, 12:44:20 PM »
I feel like anyone who's complaining that Dream Theater are homogenous these days hasn't really paid much attention to the new album. They stop for two minutes to play wind chimes!
Eh, disagree completely. DT12 has its moments, but ultimately I think "homogenous" is the perfect way of describing their sound. There are no more spicey risky moments for me; just "safe" ones which 1.) sound a heck of a lot like  JP songs, and 2.) have obvious precedent in previous recordings. And... that's OK. For a band that's pushed the envelope as often as DT have, fine. You can't expect any artist to reinvent the wheel so many times. But I'd sure like it better if the direction was more open-ended and exploratory.
I don't think so at all!

You've got a three part orchestral instrumental opening the album. Overture comparisons are... not implausible, but a little bit of a stretch, comparing the relaxed optimism of SDoIT to the dark and spiky symphonic metal type thing. Actually, you've got three instrumentals on the album, including the little Easter Egg - which is also unlike anything on any of their other albums!

But it's easy to stick with the obvious format-breakers. I don't think Surrender to Reason has a clear comparison in the band's catalogue. I think it's got a very curious vibe to it - and that huge bass-driven break in the middle is a brand new thing. In fact, the band's been criticised, so hard, for their constant squandering of John Myung, and this is their first album since Dream and Day where the bass has carried anything like this much weight, melodically. All these major keys, those quick-shifting riffs - they've never in their lives been so lean, so crafty, so disinclined to milk a riff that doesn't need milking. The band covers a whole load of ground they haven't touched since they were in their twenties, and - as then - it sounds very like they've got something to prove.

Let's not forget, either, that the biggest curveball (and, alongside FII, the most controversial installment (way more controversial than FII on messageboards alone)) in the DT catalogue is still only seven years young. Yes, this is a band who have recorded well over a hundred songs, half of which have several different identities, movements and styles within them - so, no, not everything they do, they're necessarily doing for the first time. That's just... the order those things happened in! But even when they are repeating ideas, they're doing those things in increasingly creative ways, they are generating some authentically new ideas within them, and for the first time in a long time, I sincerely feel like nothing's quite off the table.

Dream Theater's new.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3916 on: February 28, 2014, 12:59:59 PM »
You've got a three part orchestral instrumental opening the album. Overture comparisons are... not implausible, but a little bit of a stretch, comparing the relaxed optimism of SDoIT to the dark and spiky symphonic metal type thing.

Eh, that section is probably the coolest part of the album for me, but it doesn't really doesn't ever approach novel, because it's too similar to the way The Count of Tuscany has that break. So, when I hear it, I think "cool, they did the same thing as TCoT, just better" which is great, but not really new or different sounding.

But it's easy to stick with the obvious format-breakers. I don't think Surrender to Reason has a clear comparison in the band's catalogue. I think it's got a very curious vibe to it - and that huge bass-driven break in the middle is a brand new thing. In fact, the band's been criticised, so hard, for their constant squandering of John Myung, and this is their first album since Dream and Day where the bass has carried anything like this much weight, melodically. All these major keys, those quick-shifting riffs - they've never in their lives been so lean, so crafty, so disinclined to milk a riff that doesn't need milking. The band covers a whole load of ground they haven't touched since they were in their twenties, and - as then - it sounds very like they've got something to prove.
Cool points, but I think the way it sounds so much like Rush breaks the sense of it being novel, or outside DT's typical domain.

That's just... the order those things happened in! But even when they are repeating ideas, they're doing those things in increasingly creative ways, they are generating some authentically new ideas within them, and for the first time in a long time, I sincerely feel like nothing's quite off the table.

Dream Theater's new.

Well, it's cool you feel that way. I definitely don't feel like "nothing's off the table", but if you do, I won't try and change your mind. Don't want to be a spoilsport :biggrin:

Offline lithium112

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3917 on: February 28, 2014, 03:38:42 PM »
I'm not sure if this is a controversial opinion or not, but I feel like on DT12, they overdid it with the choruses a bit. All the songs on DT12 (except EM and IT) have the same type of melodic, big-sounding chorus. The thing is, I actually like the melodies they use and I'm sure they'll be fun to sing along to live, but to me they all have the same "feel" and I always know they're coming at least twice in the song which makes the song as a whole less interesting.

Offline robwebster

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3918 on: February 28, 2014, 03:41:22 PM »
You've got a three part orchestral instrumental opening the album. Overture comparisons are... not implausible, but a little bit of a stretch, comparing the relaxed optimism of SDoIT to the dark and spiky symphonic metal type thing.

Eh, that section is probably the coolest part of the album for me, but it doesn't really doesn't ever approach novel, because it's too similar to the way The Count of Tuscany has that break. So, when I hear it, I think "cool, they did the same thing as TCoT, just better" which is great, but not really new or different sounding.

But it's easy to stick with the obvious format-breakers. I don't think Surrender to Reason has a clear comparison in the band's catalogue. I think it's got a very curious vibe to it - and that huge bass-driven break in the middle is a brand new thing. In fact, the band's been criticised, so hard, for their constant squandering of John Myung, and this is their first album since Dream and Day where the bass has carried anything like this much weight, melodically. All these major keys, those quick-shifting riffs - they've never in their lives been so lean, so crafty, so disinclined to milk a riff that doesn't need milking. The band covers a whole load of ground they haven't touched since they were in their twenties, and - as then - it sounds very like they've got something to prove.
Cool points, but I think the way it sounds so much like Rush breaks the sense of it being novel, or outside DT's typical domain.

That's just... the order those things happened in! But even when they are repeating ideas, they're doing those things in increasingly creative ways, they are generating some authentically new ideas within them, and for the first time in a long time, I sincerely feel like nothing's quite off the table.

Dream Theater's new.

Well, it's cool you feel that way. I definitely don't feel like "nothing's off the table", but if you do, I won't try and change your mind. Don't want to be a spoilsport :biggrin:
Hahahaha - thank you!

I know what you mean, there are bits of Surrender to Reason that totally sound like Rush - but I think decrying the song for invoking Rush would be a bit like decrying Sacrificed Sons for invoking Muse. I mean... I don't think it'd be wrong, SS verse 2 is Sing for Absolution to the max, but I don't think it sticks about in either case. The StR chorus doesn't invoke Rush, the bass break really doesn't, I think, from a very Rush-y start, it goes its own way.

...But it might just be a case of different focus! I certainly think, on the heels of ADToE and especially BCSL, DT was a massive surprise and a sigh of relief for me. You're right, there are things I've heard before, but I think even the things I've heard before sound... refreshed? Does that make sense? Even The Enemy Inside, which is probably the closest to trad DT, sets itself apart from its spiritual predecessors just by being so much more witty and succinct. It's not the single most surprising album in their catalogue (and a self-titled album shouldn't be), but I'd say they're definitely not coasting any more.

But I'm getting repetitious! Sorry. Too long with nowhere to squawk.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3919 on: February 28, 2014, 03:48:03 PM »
I'm not sure if this is a controversial opinion or not, but I feel like on DT12, they overdid it with the choruses a bit. All the songs on DT12 (except EM and IT) have the same type of melodic, big-sounding chorus. The thing is, I actually like the melodies they use and I'm sure they'll be fun to sing along to live, but to me they all have the same "feel" and I always know they're coming at least twice in the song which makes the song as a whole less interesting.

Yeah, I kind of agree with this. All things considered, I think it's forgivable, but it does make it a little more difficult to find what truly makes each song its own unique entity.
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