Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[TheGreatPretender]

If you happen to "especially like" SC, I doubt much common ground will be found

Well, it is that thread.

And SC is amazing! Their best album since SFAM. 

[theseoafs]

And SC is amazing! Their best album since SFAM. 

The fact that you think SC is better than SDOIT is a little too much for me to handle.

[TheGreatPretender]

The fact that you think SC is better than SDOIT is a little too much for me to handle.

Yes, yes, we all know you hate SC.

[King Postwhore]

For me, it's not that I have SC, it just never grabbed me like other albums.  The test of time is how many times do I play those older albums and I rarely go for SC.

[TheGreatPretender]

For me, it's not that I have SC, it just never grabbed me like other albums.  The test of time is how many times do I play those older albums and I rarely go for SC.

I usually play each DT album at least once a year. Sometimes I'll just listen to each album one by one. And sometimes I just play whatever I feel like. Sometimes it's systematic, and sometimes it's chaos.

[GentlemanofDread]

Systematic Chaos took foreeeever to grab me but when it did, man, I really like that album. ... Just behind most over DT albums though

[Ben_Jamin]

Didn't MP say if any of the other guys left he'd most likely end DT?

The only songs I revisit from SC are PoW, ITPOE, and TMOLS.

[Invisible]

There are definitely styles that he doesn't really play, but in comparison to most other metal or heavy rock guitarists who are typically good at one or two certain styles, JP is a standout.

Well, of course, there are a lot of styles he doesn't cover, and some that he doesn't do very well, the flamenco sort of thing in the Evening With JR wasn't that great actually, and I don't like his tone on the acoustic/classical guitar at all(maybe because it's the only style I myself sort of play, and suck worse btw ), but for a rock guitar player, he certainly covers quite a few different styles, although he seemed to favour his metal side a little too much lately.

But, I feel like having lost MP, DT have really lost a lot of their attitude and vision. I think a DT that included MP but not JP would have been *very* different than what we know, and the band would have to continue to press on and try a few more new things, much to fan chagrin. Meanwhile, the current DT sounds like a band that stepped into a time capsule where they're now likely to remain. It's not bad, but I'm just not as interested.

With this I don't entirely agree. I mean, DT has definitely lost a creative source of ideas with MP departure, and that is a hit on the band, but I don't think this two albums would have been that much different with him on the band.

Actually, the whole MP/not MP affair kind of reminds me of when Argentina national football team sucks and people start praising whoever is in the bench or isn't playing, "if (this guy) was on the team this wouldn't have happened" and the the coach actually puts that player in the field, and the team sucks anyway . My comparison doesn't intend to imply that DT sucks but more that one band member out of five wouldn't actually make that much difference and that people project whatever they don't like about something to be fixed by whoever isn't involved. Kind of the people who don't like 6DOIT saying "with KM this would have never happened, this is the worst thing ever!!".

On the attitude thing, I think, at least as far as JLB is concerned, DT actually won, it's been a while since I've seen James so comfortable on record or on stage. ToT is amazing as a metal album when I'm in the mood for it, and the same goes to almost every DT album, and I actually like the raping on Honor Thy Father, although I dislike the cookie monster vocals on Nightmare to Remember. So, while some of MP contributions where awesome, others were... well... not so welcomed , A for effort, but try again . And pushing James down to the point of completely ignoring your own singer and whether he is ok with something or not wasn't on the band best benefit I think.

I don't think the band is staler than it was with the last two MP albums, or the last three for that matter, every DT album from Scenes onward had something different to offer, but each one of them had slightly less than the one before it, and I think while that was more evident than ever on ADTOE, I think there is a little more diversity in this album and is a slight step forward. The first time I heard BC&SL I was still pretty new to DT, and I was still able to anticipate what was going to happen on most of the songs on first listen, the same happend with ADTOE for most part. This record, on the other hand, while it didn't have the Six Degrees amount of surprise(not even in the same Zip code), at least the songs evolved differently than what I was anticipating, and I find most of them growing on me with each listen. The lyrics, IMHO, were a HUGE improvement from BC&SL(and SC but that actually comes if you like the fantasy lyrics or not as they are, for most part, pretty well written).

So while I'm not naive enough to think that we will se the old DT reinventing themselves as dramatically as in the 90`s-early '00, I think there's still hope for some evolution in the band sound. Would it be more if MP stayed in the band? Maybe, maybe not, we'll never know anyway. As I recall the first one I heard saying "we don't want to stay away from our sound" sort of thing was MP himself on Riding the Train of Thought, so I still don't think it would have made THAT much difference.


(Oh and btw, I really like SC when I'm in the mood for it, it isn't among my favourite albums, but when it is, it RAWWWWKS  )

[Perpetual Change]

Top 4:
1. Images and Words
2. Awake
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4. Scenes from a Memory

Bottom 4:
09. Systematic Chaos
10. Dream Theater
11. When Dream and Day Unite
12. Black Clouds & Silver Linings

To me, BC&SL was the beginning of the end. Everything from WDADU to Octavarium sounds unique in its own way, and shakes up the DT sound, admittedly for no good reason in a few examples. SC was obviously not a critically well recieved change of course for the band, but I still prefer it to DT12 or BC&SL where (aside from the blastbeats in ANtR), they just played it ultra-safe.

ADTOE was really safe too, but I like that one a lot, probably because it reminds me a lot of Images

[ThatOneGuy2112]

o me, BC&SL was the beginning of the end. Everything from WDADU to Octavarium sounds unique in its own way, and shakes up the DT sound, admittedly for no good reason in a few examples. SC was obviously not a critically well recieved change of course for the band, but I still prefer it to DT12 or BC&SL where (aside from the blastbeats in ANtR), they just played it ultra-safe.

I feel like the "DT being safe" argument gets thrown around a lot without further elaboration on why that is so. I mean, does it refer to DT resorting to a traditional DT sound? 

DT has run the gamut of styles at this point, at least with respect to progressive rock and metal. There honestly isn't one signature DT sound because every album is different than the next. The two most similar I'd have to say would be, admittedly, SC and BC&SL. But if so much as making one album out of a 12 album discography similar to one other constitutes as playing it safe, then I'm at a loss here.

My issue with some of the sounds isn't necessarily how original or new or inventive each album is, but how well they execute whatever style they were going for. Black Clouds may not be my favorite DT album, but when you get down to get, there's a lot of good stuff in it for lack of better words, and to my ears, DT12 still sounds fresh.

[Tom Bombadil]

Top 4:
1. Images and Words
2. Awake
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4. Scenes from a Memory

Bottom 4:
09. Systematic Chaos
10. Dream Theater
11. When Dream and Day Unite
12. Black Clouds & Silver Linings

To me, BC&SL was the beginning of the end. Everything from WDADU to Octavarium sounds unique in its own way, and shakes up the DT sound, admittedly for no good reason in a few examples. SC was obviously not a critically well recieved change of course for the band, but I still prefer it to DT12 or BC&SL where (aside from the blastbeats in ANtR), they just played it ultra-safe.

ADTOE was really safe too, but I like that one a lot, probably because it reminds me a lot of Images

This is pretty much exactly how I feel.

[jakepriest]

For me, Images and Words is a mid-tier DT album. The mediocrity of Another Day, Take The Time and UAGM really drags it down.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

For me, Images and Words is a mid-tier DT album. The mediocrity of Another Day, Take The Time and UAGM really drags it down.

[bosk1]

Where he is or not, I wholly agree with that statement--at least as far as the part you underlined (except that I have come to appreciate UAGM somewhat, and would probably substitute Surrounded).  But the strength of the other songs makes it far better than a mid-tier album, that's for sure.

[AngelBack]

Where he is or not, I wholly agree with that statement--at least as far as the part you underlined (except that I have come to appreciate UAGM somewhat, and would probably substitute Surrounded).  But the strength of the other songs makes it far better than a mid-tier album, that's for sure.

IF you don't love Surrounded, we must immediately begin impeachment proceedings...

[commanderbob]

Here we go:

DT12 is not only my favorite DT album, but one of my top 5 rock albums ever.

My other 4, in case your interested are, in no particular order:

Awake, Radiohead - OK Computer, Muse - Absolution, Tool - Aenima

[Jaffa]

Where he is or not, I wholly agree with that statement--at least as far as the part you underlined (except that I have come to appreciate UAGM somewhat, and would probably substitute Surrounded).  But the strength of the other songs makes it far better than a mid-tier album, that's for sure.

You don't like Take the Time?  I knew you didn't like Another Day or Surrounded, but I thought you liked the rest of the album. 

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Here we go:

DT12 is not only my favorite DT album, but one of my top 5 rock albums ever.

My other 4, in case your interested are, in no particular order:

Awake, Radiohead - OK Computer, Muse - Absolution, Tool - Aenima

Muse is one band whose appeal I just do not get.

[Invisible]

I wouldn't put Muse anywhere near my "top albums ever", but they have cool enough songs, but the lyrics(among other things) prevents them to reach another level. It's a good band though, especially their 2nd to 4th albums.

Take the Time is probably the best song on I&W, there, I said it .

[Grizz]

Take the Time is probably the best song on I&W, there, I said it .

My turn: TtT is the worst I&W song.

[bl5150]

Take the Time is probably the best song on I&W, there, I said it .

My turn: TtT is the worst I&W song.

Which still makes it better than 99.99% of songs in existence 

[425]

Edit: Never mind. 


Except it's not the worst Dream Theater song, and also there's plenty more than 0.01% of all songs that have ever been published that are better than Light Fuse and Get Away.

[Tom Bombadil]

Except it's not the worst Dream Theater song, and also there's plenty more than 0.01% of all songs that have ever been published that are better than Light Fuse and Get Away.

Light Fuse and Get Away isn't on Images & Words though

[bl5150]

Except it's not the worst Dream Theater song, and also there's plenty more than 0.01% of all songs that have ever been published that are better than Light Fuse and Get Away.

Not sure I get your point -  btw I was going to run those 9's to infinity but decided to be a bit sensible   

I was referring to the post I quoted which talked of the worst song on I&W only , so I really wasn't referencing the whole DT catalogue.   What I was saying was that the worst track on I&W is still  better than just about anything else in general (or from DT IMHO)

I agree that the worst DT song would certainly not be from I&W .    In order to decide my worst DT song I'd have to listen to all the CDs I hardly ever bother with (aside from selected favourites) and do it back to back     Think I'll pass.      I can guarantee it would be from one of SC, ToT, BCSL or SDOIT disc one but other than that I'm not sure. 

[425]

Oops. For some reason I misread "I&W" as "DT". Probably because in my mind DT = IAW. Carry on. Sorry for being confusing.

So I'll have contributed something: Burning My Soul is better than a lot of songs. It's probably the 5th best on FII after the really good ones (ToT, LitS, HY) and Hell's Kitchen. It's also better than literally half the songs on SDOIT, which is DT's weakest album as a whole.

[bl5150]

No worries .............and here I was thinking I was going to be flamed for even considering that my least favourite track could be on SDOIT      I've never been able to reconcile why I seemed to be the only DT fan on Earth who worships I&W but doesn't enjoy SDOIT disc one at all.  You've made my day 

[Invisible]

Oops. For some reason I misread "I&W" as "DT". Probably because in my mind DT = IAW. Carry on. Sorry for being confusing.

So I'll have contributed something: Burning My Soul is better than a lot of songs. It's probably the 5th best on FII after the really good ones (ToT, LitS, HY) and Hell's Kitchen. It's also better than literally half the songs on SDOIT, which is DT's weakest album as a whole.

Just when I thought we could get along...

Burning My Soul isn't nearly as bad people make it to be, except for the infamous "But I don't give a shit, NOOOOOOO" which must be on most people Top 50 worst DT moments, but there's no way it's the 5th of FII for me, it's the 2nd worst on the album after That-Song-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named.

Your opinion on SDOIT doesn't shock me since I already read your Top 50, but let's just say I strongly disagree on most of your resons . I couldn't get into the first disc on 6DOIT for years, until 2 or 3 months ago, when it all clicked me somehow. (By the way, have you heard the single-edit for Misunderstood? If I'm not misremembering the outro was the thing you didn't like, so this version maybe improves your view on the song )

[425]

No worries .............and here I was thinking I was going to be flamed for even considering that my least favourite track could be on SDOIT      I've never been able to reconcile why I seemed to be the only DT fan on Earth who worships I&W but doesn't enjoy SDOIT disc one at all.  You've made my day 

Oops. For some reason I misread "I&W" as "DT". Probably because in my mind DT = IAW. Carry on. Sorry for being confusing.

So I'll have contributed something: Burning My Soul is better than a lot of songs. It's probably the 5th best on FII after the really good ones (ToT, LitS, HY) and Hell's Kitchen. It's also better than literally half the songs on SDOIT, which is DT's weakest album as a whole.

Just when I thought we could get along...

Burning My Soul isn't nearly as bad people make it to be, except for the infamous "But I don't give a shit, NOOOOOOO" which must be on most people Top 50 worst DT moments, but there's no way it's the 5th of FII for me, it's the 2nd worst on the album after That-Song-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named.

Your opinion on SDOIT doesn't shock me since I already read your Top 50, but let's just say I strongly disagree on most of your resons . I couldn't get into the first disc on 6DOIT for years, until 2 or 3 months ago, when it all clicked me somehow. (By the way, have you heard the single-edit for Misunderstood? If I'm not misremembering the outro was the thing you didn't like, so this version maybe improves your view on the song )

You Not Me? That one is as good as or better than Peruvian Skies.

The single version vs. album version is pretty much a wash for me. I'd probably take the single version because it does lack the outro, but it loses so much of the excellent buildup that the album version has. That buildup is most of what I ever listened to Misunderstood for anyway, so I don't really ever have the urge listen to the single version. Perhaps someday, I will edit the album version so that the outro is replaced by the end of the song on the single edit, and then I could have a version of the song that I could love. However, first I will have to get time to make such an edit, and it is definitely behind making an edit for Nightwish's Song of Myself to remove some of the spoken-word stuff that I don't particularly care for in my queue.

[Invisible]

No way!! I actually tried really hard to like You Not Me so that it doesn't ruin my 1st or 2nd favourite album, but there's no way... the Bon Jovi chorus kills it for me. It has some cool moments, but it's lame as a whole.

I think there was actually a version of the whole song without the outro but I don't know where it was or even if it was fan-made or band-made... I like it as it is though, the weirdo outro makes for a perfect entrance to The Great Debate .

[Outcrier]

No worries .............and here I was thinking I was going to be flamed for even considering that my least favourite track could be on SDOIT      I've never been able to reconcile why I seemed to be the only DT fan on Earth who worships I&W but doesn't enjoy SDOIT disc one at all.  You've made my day 

Normally, it's people who worship Awake that don't like SDOIT very much (or vice-versa) 

[425]

No worries .............and here I was thinking I was going to be flamed for even considering that my least favourite track could be on SDOIT      I've never been able to reconcile why I seemed to be the only DT fan on Earth who worships I&W but doesn't enjoy SDOIT disc one at all.  You've made my day 

Normally, people who worship Awake don't like SDOIT very much (or vice-versa) 

I think both are fairly overrated, though I think Awake is by far the better album. I worship Images, Scenes and Octavarium myself.

No way!! I actually tried really hard to like You Not Me so that it doesn't ruin my 1st or 2nd favourite album, but there's no way... the Bon Jovi chorus kills it for me. It has some cool moments, but it's lame as a whole.

I think there was actually a version of the whole song without the outro but I don't know where it was or even if it was fan-made or band-made... I like it as it is though, the weirdo outro makes for a perfect entrance to The Great Debate .

Hey, if you don't like it, that's alright. I'm okay. It happens every single day. It's all the same. But I'm not blind.

IT'S ALL ABOUT YOU

NOT ME

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE EXPECTING ME TO BE

It's actually a fun pop-rock song, IMO. I don't really know that much what Bon Jovi sounds like, but I like the chorus to YNM well enough.

[Invisible]

 

Yeah, it's a pop song, but pretty lame, and I like pop. I'm actually a HUGE U2 fan, way before I even knew Dream Theater, but things like these make me cringe anyway.

I worship both Awake and SDOIT, the former was love at first sight, the latter took a loooooong time to grew on me, so I completely understand people not being into it.

[425]

I'm not saying it's a great pop song or that it should have been a hit or that I listen to it much, but it has a catchy chorus, which is pretty much all I ask of the typical pop song. And there's nothing in the instrumentation that bores me or drags it down too much. Peruvian Skies, on the other hand, just plods for me.

Since you say you're a U2 fan, I'd be interested in your perspective on I Walk Beside You and To Live Forever, the DT songs that are often considered to sound most like U2.

[Invisible]

I agree that Peruvian Skies takes its time to build up, but I think it's a really good song, although I only listen to it when I listen to the whole album. I actually like the way it transition from a Floyd-ish feel to full on metal with JP solo as a bridge. It's not awesome but it's a good solid track.

I Walk Beside You is a nice uplifting song, more in tune to the modern U2, from All That You Can't Leave Behind onwards, but since I'm not that big of a fan of anything they did after that, I Walk Beside You doesn't have nothing very special to me. It is however, and like I said on The Looking Glass, a welcome addition to their catalog, and it works really well in the album, which is another of my favourites of DT. If Falling Into Infinty is the one that got me interested in DT, Octavarium was the album that brought me back after 3 years of ignoring anything post Scenes From A Memory. So all in all, a good song, nothing more but nothing less.

To Live Forever is awesome though, more in line of The Joshua Tree U2, and actually takes the U2 sound to the level of that band itself never could, as they are very limited musicians. I absolutely love the way each section transitions to the next, and how, despite its pop factor, remains progressive all the way through, and of course the very tasteful guitar work of JP. I prefer the '91 version, but the '94 version has that extra verse so it's kind of a tough call . Had it make it to Images & Words it would elevate the already awesome album to another level, too bad it wasn't included . The live version they did on the last tour is also top notch(I found it on the Christmas release), I love how they start jamming into it .

However my personal favourite U2ish song is The Way It Used To Be, which add some Floyd-ish flavour that makes it even better. Another song that starts like a regular poppy tune and evolves in a completely unexpected way. It's maybe the DT track I've listened to the most, if that says anything of how I love the song . A crime not to have it included . Speak To Me is another personal favourite of mine which also has a U2ish vibe, simple yet beautiful sort of ballad.

So yeah, I love when DT goes U2, they take that style to a level the U2 could never get because, let's face it, when it comes to skills and musicianship they are somewhat limited .

[Grizz]

You Not Me sucked with or without Desmond Child. The final version has a slight edge for having a catchy chorus.