Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 1011475 times)

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Offline nicmos

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3605 on: February 11, 2014, 09:22:18 PM »
My controversial opinions:

Second:

Mike Mangini is a great drummer, but I've seen zero evidence that he can touch Mike Portnoy's musicality behind the kit. True, the mixing on the drums on the last two albums have been laughably bad, but to be honest, I don't find his drumming very memorable either. Yes, his parts may flow with the songs better, but I feel like Dream Theater is about showmanship, and I miss Portnoy's flashy over the top playing.

Agreed.  None of the drumming I've heard on the last 2 albums has made me notice it.  And when I do pay attention to it, my thought is usually "I think Portnoy would have done a better job here.  They might as well have a really good drum machine playing."

Offline Volante99

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3606 on: February 11, 2014, 09:31:28 PM »
My controversial opinions:

First:

James Labrie's over-singing prevents Awake from being the band's finest hour. His vocal delivery pretty much clashes with the rest of the band, doesnt fit with the lyrical content, and nearly sinks the whole affair. I love Labrie's voice and think he's so integral to the bands overall sound. I just wish he would have shown some restraint over the years; just because you can hit a note, doesn't mean you should. To be fair though, the other members play a part and have written many of those vocal melodies, so all the blame can't be placed on

I swear, it's like you said, "What's Shadow Ninja's opinion?", and then wrote the exact opposite. :lol

I think Awake is James best performance to date, and is definitely one of the highlights of the album.

I will say this; when he is good on that album he's great. It's just when he cranks it to 11 and goes into full on "domination" mode on every single song, I can't help but say to myself, "Jeeez, tone it down a bit JLB". Some otherwise great lyrics are rendered incomprehensible.

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Offline Tom Bombadil

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3607 on: February 11, 2014, 10:01:40 PM »
I can't think of a more dominant vocal performance than Awake in my opinion. James is a big part of why that's my favorite album. But I can understand if it's not for everyone.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3608 on: February 11, 2014, 10:05:36 PM »
Ha, JLB's vocals are probably my favorite part of Awake.

Mine too. That and IAW are JLB's strongest vocal performances, and not just because they're the highest, but because of the power, and some of the more complex melodies he manages even in that upper register.
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Offline NotePad

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3609 on: February 11, 2014, 11:04:48 PM »

Mike wanted to take every different kind of band he listened to and work them into a Dream Theater CD and it just put them all over the place.

I agree with this. Over a 25 year career with the band, IMO, this was MP's only...yes, ONLY shortcoming!

You see, that's part of what I liked about MP. But at the same time, being in the particular group he was a part of resulted in a lack of overall focus, and was all over the place, as someone said. Of course, this is speculation on my part.

What Petrucci wanted and wants to do with DT I'm not exactly sure. But i feel the pairing of him and MP in recent years resulted in sounding like a lack of focus on any particular style and musical masturbation as the band tried to fit so many things in.

There's a quote from a review I read recently:
"they remain "progressive" within the context of a song but how they as a band have not progressed much in the literal sense."

Offline Invisible

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3610 on: February 12, 2014, 04:19:47 AM »
Damn! So many things in this thread I don't even know where to start! :lol

First of all, it's been a while since I've written in english and I'm not a native speaker, so sorry for any awkward grammar or anything.

The Portnoy subject: I feel MP departing brought the same issue as when KM took off: he was replaced by a better member as far as the instrument is concerned(MM and JR respectively), but one that is not involved in lyrics or songwriting, leading to a loss in that department. But, while the KM void was filled by MP back in the day, MP absence wasn't completely filled by the other members imho. JP and JLB stepped up to the challenge, but JMX and JR didn't IMHO. The vocals have greatly improved, sure, you can notice that James is ageing a little, but there weren't any awkward moments where you can clearly hear he's out of his comfort zone and being pushed to do something he doesn't feel to. In these last two records, you can clearly tell he had a very strong stand on what to do and what not to, you can tell when it comes to the vocals, he is the boss, so to speak, and that's a positive outcome at least for me.

When it comes to MP contrubution to the band, I feel there are two very opposite views: either he was "the tyrant of DT" or "the soul of DT"(coming from a hater or fan, respectively) or "he was just the drummer or the arranger". I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle: he was a VERY important driving force of the band, but not the only one, and he was almost as important as JP. Of course, the fact that JP plays the most important instrument of any rock band(especially a prog/heavy one), and the fact that he is a monster at it elevates him slightly over MP and the rest of the band. You can suggest him ideas, but in the end he is, and always was "the man", to put it in a way. The fact that there wasn't a significant difference in the two latest albums kind of proves that.

The "problem" I see lies in the fact that MM, while a big asset to the band when it comes to the drums, doesn't add anything else. I wouldn't expect him to, since he is the new guy in a 25+ years band. And, as someone else here pointed out perfectly, he wasn't expected to do anything else, if the band wanted another songwriter they had better options in that seven drummer auditions, the fact that they chose Mangini was a big give away on which direction the band wanted to go, or better, didn't want to.

But, as I said earlier JP and JLB upped their game, the ones who, IMHO, didn't as much were JR and JM. Sure, JM came back to writing, and that on itself is huge and extremely welcomed, but I still hope to see that bass player who blew me away with those awesome basslines, that somehow has been missing since Falling Into Infinity, the last album to have an "oh my god DAT BASS!!!" moment for me(and one of the reasons it is one of my favourite albums). Most people blame the lack of groove on JR, but after listening to his solo work, I think he has an awesome groove, the band just doesn't use it. As for the wizard, he seems content to go through the motions, he still has some awesome moments, but nothing like Scenes, Octavarium and most importantly the awesome 6DOIT. I don't expect JP, JLB and MM to give more than they already have, but I still think the other two have more to bring in. For one, I hoped JR would fill some of the backing vocals(not the cookie monster one, but harmonizing with James on some parts would be nice), he CAN sing, and way better than JP :lol.

Judging all I've written it would seem I don't like the last two albums, nothing further from reality: they both grew immensely on me, especially DT12, I hated it the first time, went "Meh" the second, and jumped to "this is really good" the third time when, as most DT albums, it clicked on me. Love it or hate, The Looking Glass, for instance, IS different from most of the stuff DT did in the past, it's not different in the context of music but let's face it, DT were never so much pioneers of music as they are more like "improvers/enhancers"(are those even words? :lol) of other pioneers. TLG is a breath of fresh air as a light hard rocker with prog elements, the only other songs that come close would be Raise The Knife or Cover My Eyes, but not quite so. Granted, it's not a Glass Prison or Lines in the Sand, but it brings something different to the catalog, and, so far in this band career, that does it for me. The same goes to the other tracks, while none of them are groundbreaking or a shock as every other album until Octavarium were back in the day, they do bring something new to the table. Unlike *cough*Lost Not Forgotten*cough*.



I was going to write some more, but I think most people will be comatose with boredom if I go on so I'll just stop here :lol.

--------
Oh and my final controversial opinion on the forum: I hate when people write the initials of a song/album and not the full name, especially when they do it without context. For example, there two songs who can be SDV you know!! >:( And things like TDG and so on doesn't help that much either, I usually spend like 5 minutes trying to remember all the songs that start with that letter until I find the right answer, it irritates me to no end.
/rant

EDITED: some stupid typos and stuff like that.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 04:27:03 AM by Invisible »

Offline 425

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3611 on: February 12, 2014, 04:43:46 AM »
Great post, Invisible. Your English is really quite excellent.

I agree with a lot of what you said regarding the MP issue. I think it is too commonly forgotten that JP had at least as much authority in the band as Mike did and was probably more essential to the core sound. JP is also probably the one band member without whom they would have had a lot more trouble going on and might not have gone on, had he left in 2010 instead of MP.

With The Looking Glass, I'll grant that it doesn't sound exactly like any other song, but I think it has more than a passing resemblance in style to something like Status Seeker.
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Offline GentlemanofDread

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3612 on: February 12, 2014, 04:51:01 AM »
Non-MM and MP controversy post time!

The Ones That Help To Set The Sun is a top 3 song for me. Yep.
i don't even like dt but i had keyboard and an ipad so what the fuck
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Offline Invisible

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3613 on: February 12, 2014, 04:56:20 AM »
Great post, Invisible. Your English is really quite excellent.
:blush

On Status Seeker you got me, if I said I heard that song three times I would be exagerating :lol. WDADU is the first album I heard of DT, but I only heard it once and hated it to the point that it put me off of the band for like 2 years, until I decided to give Images And Words a shot after seeing an LTE performance video.

And if it was JP instead of MP leaving, DT would be done for IMHO. As hard as it was(and still is!) replacing MP, replacing JP would be next to impossible for me.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3614 on: February 12, 2014, 05:10:19 AM »
Good post, Invisible. :tup

On the issue of song/album initials, you'll learn them all in no time around here! :lol
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3615 on: February 12, 2014, 05:33:05 AM »
Great post, Invisible. Your English is really quite excellent.
:blush

On Status Seeker you got me, if I said I heard that song three times I would be exagerating :lol. WDADU is the first album I heard of DT, but I only heard it once and hated it to the point that it put me off of the band for like 2 years, until I decided to give Images And Words a shot after seeing an LTE performance video.

And if it was JP instead of MP leaving, DT would be done for IMHO. As hard as it was(and still is!) replacing MP, replacing JP would be next to impossible for me.

JP would definitely have been a bigger blow to the band's future had he left.  Not only because on his end his guitars are one of main things you hear in the band but also because on MP's end, he was more of their spokesperson so to speak and JP/JLB have almost seamlessly stepped up in that aspect.   

Online mikeyd23

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3616 on: February 12, 2014, 07:20:46 AM »
I don't think it was. There was at least a dichotomy between "Mike" and "John" influences before, where you could basically tell who wrote a song before even looking at the linear notes. There were also your occasionally influences from the other guys. Mike stepping away doesn't seem to have led to the other guys writing more, it's just led to double the JP filling the void. Hence me feeling like the sound has become more homogenous.

Are you talking about lyrics or music? If you are just addressing lyrics then I guess I can see your point.  John and Mike had been the two main lyricists on recent albums before MP's departure so that dynamic has been different over the last two albums, but if your addressing the music with your comment then I'm a little confused.  Its been widely discussed here that for the most part, MP's contributions to the music included composing drum parts (obviously) and simply helping to work with arrangement ideas. 

So on SC and BC&SL, JP and JR were still the real driving creative force of the band, muscially creating the riffs, chord progressions, melodies, etc... for the most part.  That hasn't really changed with MP's departure, JP and JR still fill that role in the band.

I'm... not in the least sure that you can say that is true outright. Certainly JP and JR are responsible for writing a vast majority of the music, but I'm not at all sure that you can limit Mike's contributions to writing drum parts and "helping to work with arrangement ideas." I think Mike was responsible, far more than anyone aside from maybe Jordan, with coming up with the outside-the-box, outside of the normal direction of the band ideas that we used to see all the time from them. Like them or not, songs like Never Enough and ideas like the fan vocals of Prophets of War, the growled section of A Nightmare to Remember and the three-part harmonies that drench Black Clouds & Silver Linings were all outside the box and are probably mostly attributable to Mike Portnoy. And those are the kind of things that I love from Dream Theater. I hesitate to be exacting in my remarks because I think the music on the last two albums is very good, safe as it is, but I do think I'd probably rather hear DT11 in 3 years with Mike Portnoy as co-producer than have ADTOE and DT12. This is even while my #1 is Breaking All Illusions. I am nearly that confident that they would have topped BAI with MP in the band (to say nothing of: Jordan/John would probably have written most of what I liked in BAI anyway, and JMX had already planned to return to lyric-writing regardless of whether or not Mike left the band).

I actually agree with what you are saying, but to defend my point, I did say that "for the most part" MP wrote drums parts and worked with arrangements, meaning that there may be a few specific instances that he went above and beyond that (like the songs you mentioned above) but generally speaking those were his contributions to the group.  Also, when I said helping work with arrangements I was (in my mind) including vocal arrangements in that as well as musical arrangements.  I realize I didn't specifically say that so that was probably confusing.  But to me, arrangements include vocal arrangements such as counter-melodies, harmony layering, etc... So I didn't mean to downplay MP's contributions that much I was just trying to convey that I thought losing JP and/or JR would have been a bigger blow to the band musically.

When it comes to MP contrubution to the band, I feel there are two very opposite views: either he was "the tyrant of DT" or "the soul of DT"(coming from a hater or fan, respectively) or "he was just the drummer or the arranger". I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle: he was a VERY important driving force of the band, but not the only one, and he was almost as important as JP. Of course, the fact that JP plays the most important instrument of any rock band(especially a prog/heavy one), and the fact that he is a monster at it elevates him slightly over MP and the rest of the band. You can suggest him ideas, but in the end he is, and always was "the man", to put it in a way. The fact that there wasn't a significant difference in the two latest albums kind of proves that.

I think you hit the nail on the head right here.  MP did a lot and he probably does fall into that middle ground you mentioned somewhere in between "the soul of DT" and "just a drummer"... And I agree losing JP would have been worse, much worse than losing MP.  Like you said, a drummer like MP can suggest or push different directions, but at the end of the day, the majority of the time, JP (or JR) was the one actually responsible for writing the music and creating something from nothing.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3617 on: February 12, 2014, 09:43:17 AM »
Non-MM and MP controversy post time!

The Ones That Help To Set The Sun is a top 3 song for me. Yep.
The most I'd give it is a top 10 intro, then once the actual song gets going, it's like... Not even on the list anymore.
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Offline toky_world

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3618 on: February 12, 2014, 10:17:54 AM »
Controversial

I hope that MP returns to DT in 2015, after the so called 5 year hiatus he initially wanted. It won't happen since it seems that MP and the band relation isn't in good terms.

Offline JayOctavarium

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3619 on: February 12, 2014, 10:20:30 AM »
Controversial

I hope that MP returns to DT in 2015, after the so called 5 year hiatus he initially wanted. It won't happen since it seems that MP and the band relation isn't in good terms.


Yay cuz Mangini is only a fill in.
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3620 on: February 12, 2014, 10:26:05 AM »
Controversial

I hope that MP returns to DT in 2015, after the so called 5 year hiatus he initially wanted. It won't happen since it seems that MP and the band relation isn't in good terms.


Yay cuz Mangini is only a fill in.

He is?

Offline toky_world

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3621 on: February 12, 2014, 10:32:04 AM »
Controversial

I hope that MP returns to DT in 2015, after the so called 5 year hiatus he initially wanted. It won't happen since it seems that MP and the band relation isn't in good terms.


Yay cuz Mangini is only a fill in.

That's why I said controversial. It's a personal opinion not an universal truth.

Offline Zook

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3622 on: February 12, 2014, 04:18:22 PM »
"Hey guys, it's been 5 years, can I rejoin the band?"

"OK, welcome back to the family, Mike."

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Offline Invisible

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3623 on: February 12, 2014, 04:46:07 PM »
 :rollin hey, MP kit has two seats, so maybe they can share the spot! :lol

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3624 on: February 12, 2014, 05:21:47 PM »
And if it was JP instead of MP leaving, DT would be done for IMHO. As hard as it was(and still is!) replacing MP, replacing JP would be next to impossible for me.
Before MP left the band, I think most people would've said the same thing "if MP left the band." Yet, here we are today. Had it been JP that left instead of MP, I can still easily imagine the band continuing, finding someone else to take JP's spot. Granted, the sound of the music would definitely change in some ways, but then again, the music changed when Derek and then Jordan joined the band, and no one bats an eyelash over those changes (except for maybe the KevMo lovers who hate everything DT's done since he left).
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3625 on: February 12, 2014, 05:25:22 PM »
I think a non Petrucci Dream Theater would sound too different for my tastes.
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3626 on: February 12, 2014, 05:31:25 PM »
I think a non Petrucci Dream Theater would sound too different for my tastes.
We'll never know, but did Derek-era DT sound too different for you? How about KevMo-era or Jordan-era? Those guys all had a large hand in the writing of the music. And you can be sure that if such a scenario happened, just as they chose someone to be a good fit in replacing MP, they would've done the same regarding JP.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3627 on: February 12, 2014, 05:32:03 PM »
I think a non Petrucci Dream Theater would sound too different for my tastes.

I think he's a dynamic enough of a guitar player, that there are some out there that can at least capture SOME of his qualities. Sach and Vai are obvious choices, though I doubt they'd join DT.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3628 on: February 12, 2014, 05:52:25 PM »
And if it was JP instead of MP leaving, DT would be done for IMHO. As hard as it was(and still is!) replacing MP, replacing JP would be next to impossible for me.
Before MP left the band, I think most people would've said the same thing "if MP left the band." Yet, here we are today. Had it been JP that left instead of MP, I can still easily imagine the band continuing, finding someone else to take JP's spot. Granted, the sound of the music would definitely change in some ways, but then again, the music changed when Derek and then Jordan joined the band, and no one bats an eyelash over those changes (except for maybe the KevMo lovers who hate everything DT's done since he left).

You are absolutely correct, Scotty.  But I really do think that John leaving would be too much.  The one constant since the inception of the band is that John has been the primary writer.  Maybe if Mike P. was still in the band, they could go on.  But I just don't see it without John.  As far as founding members, the only one they would have left is John M., and he doesn't write enough and does not appear to be assertive enough in his musical vision to drive the band.  James is practically a founding member, but doesn't write much of the music.  While Jordan is a capable writer, I just don't see him taking the lead and carrying on without John.  Again, you make a good point about the fact that the vast majority of us would have said they were done without Mike P., and yet, here we are.  And lots of other bands have lost key members and gone on.  But IMO, I just think losing John would be the straw that would break this particular camel's back.
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3629 on: February 12, 2014, 06:06:36 PM »
You are absolutely correct, Scotty.  But I really do think that John leaving would be too much.  The one constant since the inception of the band is that John has been the primary writer.  Maybe if Mike P. was still in the band, they could go on.  But I just don't see it without John.  As far as founding members, the only one they would have left is John M., and he doesn't write enough and does not appear to be assertive enough in his musical vision to drive the band.  James is practically a founding member, but doesn't write much of the music.  While Jordan is a capable writer, I just don't see him taking the lead and carrying on without John.  Again, you make a good point about the fact that the vast majority of us would have said they were done without Mike P., and yet, here we are.  And lots of other bands have lost key members and gone on.  But IMO, I just think losing John would be the straw that would break this particular camel's back.
No no no - perhaps I wasn't making myself clear. I'm saying if JP had left instead of MP. I fully agree that it would be too much for JP to leave at this stage in the game. But yeah, if MP had still been in the band, it would've been possible.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline Tis BOOLsheet

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3630 on: February 12, 2014, 06:25:30 PM »
And if it was JP instead of MP leaving, DT would be done for IMHO. As hard as it was(and still is!) replacing MP, replacing JP would be next to impossible for me.
Before MP left the band, I think most people would've said the same thing "if MP left the band." Yet, here we are today. Had it been JP that left instead of MP, I can still easily imagine the band continuing, finding someone else to take JP's spot. Granted, the sound of the music would definitely change in some ways, but then again, the music changed when Derek and then Jordan joined the band, and no one bats an eyelash over those changes (except for maybe the KevMo lovers who hate everything DT's done since he left).

There would be/will be no Dream Theater as we know it without JP. If they brought in someone else, they could probably make great music in the same style, but it would sound very different from all the previous albums. The difference would be far far far greater than the difference between the keyboard players or the drummers, given JP's role, his extraordinary skill as one of the top players in the genre, and the importance of the guitar in DT's music.

The guy writes most of the music, most of the lyrics, and plays the most essential instrument in the band's sound.  It's basically his band more than it is the others'. Again, the band could conceivably pick up another great guitarist-- there are so many of them these days-- and make good music. But there'd be little benefit in carrying the name and trying to convince the fans that the most important (by far) guy's departure is not going to radically change the product.

Also, I definitely batted an eyelash when I listened to the difference in keyboardists and drummers for the first time. The difference between those guys is very apparent.


Offline Invisible

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3631 on: February 12, 2014, 06:31:26 PM »
Yeah, without both of them they will be done. It is interesting the other scenario though(JP instead of MP), actually I thought about starting a thread when I joined here, but since I'm a n00b I didn't want to be mistaken for a troll so I gave up :P.

I still have a lot of trouble seeing it, since JP to me is the musical leader of DT, even on the MP era. It would be a lot closer to Roger Waters and Pink Floyd, or even bigger. Portnoy, as big as is ideas were and his directing of the band, is still the drummer, therefore a lot more replaceable in this kind of band. If MP were the only lyric writer, it would have been a different thing, but as he was, he was the leader on the general ideas for the band, but the execution of those ideas were on JP(and JR) behalf.

As for the "DT survived KM", well, you have a really good point, but I still think that it's different for two things: 1) It was early in their careers, it would have been A LOT bigger if it were 20 years and 10 albums into their career. AND 2) The keyboard play the SECOND most important role in DT music, the guitar plays the first, so JP's impact would still be bigger.

I think JP was kind of "the leader in the shadows" when MP was in the band, you listen to JP play in NAMM 94 and '96 all by himself and there is A LOT of funky riffs in his playing and soloing, which led to the distinctive Falling Into Infinity sound, that most people so eagerly attribute to Sherinian, but I think it was more of a JP and JM thing. My point is wherever JP moved with his sound and style, the band followed him, not the other way around.

That leads to the "who could replace him in the hypothetic 2010 scenario of him and not MP leaving?", I seriously don't know. One of the main things about JP is that he is a jack-of-all-trades as far as electric guitar is concerned, he is not the best on any department, but he is the 2nd best in all of them. He can morph into The Edge simplistic effect-driven playing, go to Gilmour soulful soloing, shred like Satriani, do jazzy licks, funky riffs, really heavy crunchy playing, he's sort of a chameleon as far as guitar(and lyrics actually) is concerned. I'm not a very knowleadgble person as far as music is concerned(especially compared to some of what I've been reading here), but I simply can't imagine ONE guitar player that can cover all of the aspects of JP, I can name a lot that can cover some of his style and actually do as great, but not one who is as well rounded as JP. That's actually the reason I became into DT, I heard all of their albums in order, but I wasn't as genuinly surprised until I reached to FII, I was ASTOUNDED as how what I considered a really good shredder morphed into a completely different player and was GREAT at it. I just don't see anyone filling that spot, but then again, maybe he is replaceable, I just don't know enough guitar players.

Online mikeyd23

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3632 on: February 13, 2014, 08:22:59 AM »
....That leads to the "who could replace him in the hypothetic 2010 scenario of him and not MP leaving?", I seriously don't know. One of the main things about JP is that he is a jack-of-all-trades as far as electric guitar is concerned, he is not the best on any department, but he is the 2nd best in all of them. He can morph into The Edge simplistic effect-driven playing, go to Gilmour soulful soloing, shred like Satriani, do jazzy licks, funky riffs, really heavy crunchy playing, he's sort of a chameleon as far as guitar(and lyrics actually) is concerned. I'm not a very knowleadgble person as far as music is concerned(especially compared to some of what I've been reading here), but I simply can't imagine ONE guitar player that can cover all of the aspects of JP, I can name a lot that can cover some of his style and actually do as great, but not one who is as well rounded as JP. That's actually the reason I became into DT, I heard all of their albums in order, but I wasn't as genuinly surprised until I reached to FII, I was ASTOUNDED as how what I considered a really good shredder morphed into a completely different player and was GREAT at it. I just don't see anyone filling that spot, but then again, maybe he is replaceable, I just don't know enough guitar players.

Yeah man, nice post.  I agree that without both MP and JP DT would cease to exist, or at least should cease to exist.  In the case of JP being the one to leave instead of MP, man I don't know... I really think that would have had such a huge impact, I'm not sure the band would have survived or at least survived and come through the transition as well as they have transitioned drummers.

Like you said, JP would be hard to replace, heck that would be a nightmare gig as a guitarist to try to replace John Petrucci! And your observation is a good one, JP is sort of a jack-of-all-trades to a certain degree.  There are definitely styles that he doesn't really play, but in comparison to most other metal or heavy rock guitarists who are typically good at one or two certain styles, JP is a standout. His playing encompasses amazing riff writing, interesting chord progressions and structures, fast technical shredding passages, great melodic playing, effect driven parts, volume swells, acoustic guitar parts, etc, etc.... That would be a pretty big task to handle. It would definitely change the sound of DT more than any other instrument change has before, keys or drums.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3633 on: February 13, 2014, 08:28:21 AM »
Re: Who did the band need more, Mike P or John P?

The obvious answer is John, since the band would have lost their primary songwriter, which would have been a much harder thing to overcome. But, I feel like having lost MP, DT have really lost a lot of their attitude and vision. I think a DT that included MP but not JP would have been *very* different than what we know, and the band would have to continue to press on and try a few more new things, much to fan chagrin. Meanwhile, the current DT sounds like a band that stepped into a time capsule where they're now likely to remain. It's not bad, but I'm just not as interested.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3634 on: February 13, 2014, 09:23:35 AM »
Agree with the above posts here. JP is the harmonic backbone of Dream Theater. While it certainly would have been possible to find a replacement guitarist in terms of skill, any songs after that would have been drastically different.
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Offline RodrigoAltaf

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3635 on: February 13, 2014, 09:24:16 AM »
 PC, I see your point, and agree to a large extent. But prepare to be flamed, man...

Offline bl5150

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3636 on: February 13, 2014, 09:38:18 AM »
Re: Who did the band need more, Mike P or John P?

The obvious answer is John, since the band would have lost their primary songwriter, which would have been a much harder thing to overcome. But, I feel like having lost MP, DT have really lost a lot of their attitude and vision. I think a DT that included MP but not JP would have been *very* different than what we know, and the band would have to continue to press on and try a few more new things, much to fan chagrin. Meanwhile, the current DT sounds like a band that stepped into a time capsule where they're now likely to remain. It's not bad, but I'm just not as interested.

I'm safe and boring I'm afraid -  I thought ADTOE and (even more so)  DT12 were a return to form and I won't mourn the loss of the attitude that produced SC, ToT and BC&SL.     If they keep producing the same record over and over then yes , perhaps I'll lose interest but I don't see any sign of that yet and I doubt JP will let that happen. 

No flaming here - just a difference in taste.

I love Portnoy as a drummer btw - and each album had something I liked - but I place a lot of value in melody/song structure and I  wasn't rapt in where they were heading for quite some time.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3637 on: February 13, 2014, 09:39:43 AM »
PC, I see your point, and agree to a large extent. But prepare to be flamed, man...

lol, I'm prepared. Funny thing is, I've come full circle since when Mike P left, when I was almost overly excited about it. Now that the dust has settled, and I've had time to compare MP's newer projects with DT's new music, I feel like I project a lot of what I didn't like about what DT were doing unfairly onto Mike.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3638 on: February 13, 2014, 10:08:36 AM »
To me, DT has always been first and foremost about musicianship. Their incredible skill level (on behalf of all the members) is what gives them their respectability, not their 'attitude'. They've always been a class act, and they don't need to prove they're badass or anything of the sort. They're musicians.
I happen to really like ToT and especially Systematic Chaos, so I'm not saying some of that Metal attitude was a bad thing, but after SC, BCSL, and ADTOE, I think it's really refreshing to hear an album that's a little bit more Rush influenced, like DT12, is quite refreshing.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #3639 on: February 13, 2014, 10:09:29 AM »
If you happen to "especially like" SC, I doubt much common ground will be found :lol
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