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Your Controversial Opinions on DT

Started by Lucidity, December 17, 2012, 07:28:25 PM

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?

I like how this thread has derailed completely! :lol

But yeah, it's amazing how great James still sounds after all he's been through.

wasteland

Quote from: ? on December 28, 2012, 12:37:02 AM
I like how this thread has derailed completely! :lol

Still, this probably the best proper discussion thread we've had in the DT side in a few months!

Quote
But yeah, it's amazing how great James still sounds after all he's been through.

And yeah, the 2012 James is probably his best and most consistent incarnation since 1992-1993  :tup

slycordinator

Quote from: Madman Shepherd on December 27, 2012, 10:34:34 AM
Ronnie James Dio found some ungodly high pitch screams in his 60s (!!!) that he never used before.  That was because the high end of his voice was suffering.  He still sounded great though but he had to alter his style towards the end.  For an example check out the beginning of Mob Rules from a tour from the 80s or 90s where he says "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh come onnnnn!" and compare it with the Radio City Music Hall show from 2007.  In that show he screams "Come onnnnn" in an aggressive falsetto more out of limitation of his vocal range at the age of 65 than anything else.  Still kind of a cool thing to experiment with and he still sounded great regardless.
On the other hand, listen to some of his live performances with Sabbath. He got into the habit of trying a growly-type voice especially for the somewhat lower registers and to me, it sounds awful; as a youtube commenter put it for one vid, it sounded as if he was gargling with drain cleaner. I seriously wish he had stuck to the style he'd used on the actual records.

Madman Shepherd

Quote from: slycordinator on December 28, 2012, 01:36:48 PM
Quote from: Madman Shepherd on December 27, 2012, 10:34:34 AM
Ronnie James Dio found some ungodly high pitch screams in his 60s (!!!) that he never used before.  That was because the high end of his voice was suffering.  He still sounded great though but he had to alter his style towards the end.  For an example check out the beginning of Mob Rules from a tour from the 80s or 90s where he says "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh come onnnnn!" and compare it with the Radio City Music Hall show from 2007.  In that show he screams "Come onnnnn" in an aggressive falsetto more out of limitation of his vocal range at the age of 65 than anything else.  Still kind of a cool thing to experiment with and he still sounded great regardless.
On the other hand, listen to some of his live performances with Sabbath. He got into the habit of trying a growly-type voice especially for the somewhat lower registers and to me, it sounds awful; as a youtube commenter put it for one vid, it sounded as if he was gargling with drain cleaner. I seriously wish he had stuck to the style he'd used on the actual records.

Thats actually another good example of how his voice suffered towards the end.  He covered for it well because most people couldnt tell, but after being a somewhat obsessive fan of his and hearing various live recordings of his, I was able to compare some and here the parts that he most often altered in a live setting.  The times he did not do that you could see his voice was straining a little bit.  For instance, when he sang the lyrics "I'm the man on the SIIIIILVER Moooooountaaain" he would usually alter it in so the word "silver" was an octave lower.  Not a difficult note to reach by any means, but in the phrasing with the style of his vocals, it actually is difficult.

Like James, Dio is still awesome regardless. 

TheGreatPretender

Quote from: Madman Shepherd on December 28, 2012, 10:07:24 PM
Like James, Dio is still awesome regardless.

Unlike Dio, I hope James lives for a long, long time, and then becomes a head in a jar Futurama style.

wasteland

There would be no room for all the hair  :lol

King Postwhore

Quote from: wasteland on December 28, 2012, 11:53:16 PM
There would be no room for all the hair  :lol

Well at least the back side of his head would be full of hair. :lol


Futurama Ozzy would bite the heads of all the jars live in concert.
"I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'." - Bon Newhart.

Ruba

Quote from: ? on December 27, 2012, 02:28:03 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 27, 2012, 12:29:02 AM
Quote from: wasteland on December 27, 2012, 12:22:29 AM
Quote from: ? on December 27, 2012, 12:08:44 AM
why include stuff like New Millennium, TTTSTA or Goodnight Kiss when you can throw in The Glass Prison, A Mind Beside Itself or A Change Of Seasons?

FTFY  :tup

They already had those on the previous live album. That would have been silly, especially with how much time they'd eat out of the set time that would be taken away from other songs.
TGP really should have been on there, going into TDS.
Totally agreed - MP was pretty strict about not repeating songs on subsequent live albums, so it wouldn't have happened anyway.

So Just Let Me Breathe on OIALT and Live Scenes was OK, but ACOS and AMBI weren't? Mike, Mike, Mike...  :\

?

Quote from: Ruba on December 29, 2012, 04:52:12 AM
So Just Let Me Breathe on OIALT and Live Scenes was OK, but ACOS and AMBI weren't? Mike, Mike, Mike...  :\
JLMB is just a 5½-minute song, ACOS and AMBI are over 20 minutes long, so it's a different case. Besides, JLMB isn't on the DVD version of Live Scenes.

Ruba

Quality over length, my friend. I could sacrifice 3-4 mortal Dream Theater songs to have ACOS on DVD.

But in any case, I like the song rotation between live albums. Iron Maiden just keeps playing The Trooper/The Evil That Men Do/The Number of the Beast, even though they've worn me out three live albums ago  :P.

slycordinator

Quote from: Madman Shepherd on December 28, 2012, 10:07:24 PM
Thats actually another good example of how his voice suffered towards the end.  He covered for it well because most people couldnt tell, but after being a somewhat obsessive fan of his and hearing various live recordings of his, I was able to compare some and here the parts that he most often altered in a live setting.
Actually, I was referring to stuff he did with Sabbath during his prime, when his voice wasn't actually suffering and he actively chose to do the growling vocals that were just atrocious. There were times where I think he might've thought doing that made them seem "edgier" or something.

jhonvictor

Constant Motion, Dark Eternal Night. A Rite of Passage, ARE GOOD.

BlobVanDam

Quote from: jhonvictor on December 29, 2012, 09:02:44 PM
Constant Motion, Dark Eternal Night. A Rite of Passage, ARE GOOD.

:tup They're better than good. Theeeeeeeeey're GREAT!

The Presence of Frenemies

Another Day >> Metropolis (though Metropolis is still a good song)

Cable

Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 29, 2012, 09:50:44 PM
Quote from: jhonvictor on December 29, 2012, 09:02:44 PM
Constant Motion, Dark Eternal Night. A Rite of Passage, ARE GOOD.

:tup They're better than good. Theeeeeeeeey're GREAT!


I'll agree greatly on the 1st and 3rd, and disagree highly on the 2nd.

BlobVanDam

Quote from: CableX 1814 on December 29, 2012, 10:37:05 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 29, 2012, 09:50:44 PM
Quote from: jhonvictor on December 29, 2012, 09:02:44 PM
Constant Motion, Dark Eternal Night. A Rite of Passage, ARE GOOD.

:tup They're better than good. Theeeeeeeeey're GREAT!


I'll agree greatly on the 1st and 3rd, and disagree highly on the 2nd.

Your opinions make baby Petrucci cry.

theseoafs

Sadly, I must inform all of you that those are three of the worst DT songs.  But fear not, because if you liked their not-so-good music, you're going to love their great music. :biggrin:

BlobVanDam

Quote from: theseoafs on December 29, 2012, 10:47:27 PM
Sadly, I must inform all of you that those are three of the worst DT songs.  But fear not, because if you liked their not-so-good music, you're going to love their great music. :biggrin:

Sadly, I must inform you that unfortunately DT released an entire album of music much, much worse than any of those excellent songs. It is called When Dream and Day Unite.

The Presence of Frenemies

Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 29, 2012, 10:50:11 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on December 29, 2012, 10:47:27 PM
Sadly, I must inform all of you that those are three of the worst DT songs.  But fear not, because if you liked their not-so-good music, you're going to love their great music. :biggrin:

Sadly, I must inform you that unfortunately DT released an entire album of music much, much worse than any of those excellent songs. It is called When Dream and Day Unite.

If you factor in production yes, but TKH and Afterlife, at least, top those songs for me when it comes to the actual songwriting, as borne out by the excellent live performances with JLB. A Fortune In Lies would be in the discussion as well.

BlobVanDam

Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 29, 2012, 10:51:41 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 29, 2012, 10:50:11 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on December 29, 2012, 10:47:27 PM
Sadly, I must inform all of you that those are three of the worst DT songs.  But fear not, because if you liked their not-so-good music, you're going to love their great music. :biggrin:

Sadly, I must inform you that unfortunately DT released an entire album of music much, much worse than any of those excellent songs. It is called When Dream and Day Unite.

If you factor in production yes, but TKH and Afterlife, at least, top those songs for me when it comes to the actual songwriting, as borne out by the excellent live performances with JLB. A Fortune In Lies would be in the discussion as well.

I'm not even factoring in production, I'm just factoring in the amateurish songwriting, and very poor melodies and phrasing. Even with their minor faults, TDEN, CM and AROP are very well constructed songs, and there's not even a comparison in how far ahead the songwriting is for them imo.

orcus116

You cite very poor melodies yet CM, TDEN and AROP contain some of the worst phoned-in, surface level nu-metal riffing in their catalog. WDADU captures the intricacies of a young band starting out with, yes, some influences but there is absolutely no excuse for a group of world talented musicians as much older, experienced, wiser men to be releasing such lazy material as those other three songs.

The Presence of Frenemies

Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 29, 2012, 10:54:59 PM
Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 29, 2012, 10:51:41 PM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 29, 2012, 10:50:11 PM
Quote from: theseoafs on December 29, 2012, 10:47:27 PM
Sadly, I must inform all of you that those are three of the worst DT songs.  But fear not, because if you liked their not-so-good music, you're going to love their great music. :biggrin:

Sadly, I must inform you that unfortunately DT released an entire album of music much, much worse than any of those excellent songs. It is called When Dream and Day Unite.

If you factor in production yes, but TKH and Afterlife, at least, top those songs for me when it comes to the actual songwriting, as borne out by the excellent live performances with JLB. A Fortune In Lies would be in the discussion as well.

I'm not even factoring in production, I'm just factoring in the amateurish songwriting, and very poor melodies and phrasing. Even with their minor faults, TDEN, CM and AROP are very well constructed songs, and there's not even a comparison in how far ahead the songwriting is for them imo.

The WDADU album as a whole has plenty of amateur moments, and I love SC (my #3 DT album) and BCSL (5 or 6) but I disagree. I think AROP's and TDEN's instrumental sections, in particular, are quite jarring and add nothing and/or detract from the songs. TKH, on the other hand (if you use, say, the Marquee version), might have the most effortless flow of any of DT's "intricate" compositions, with disparate verses and riffs melding together seamlessly. Afterlife also is very well-constructed.

Constant Motion is pretty well-done, though I don't see any obvious reason to think it's better-written than, say, AFIL. The biggest weakness with those songs' original versions is that they were written for the wrong singer, which is immature, but with LaBrie they come together quite well.

I will say that AROP and TDEN are certainly ahead of LFAGA, TOWHTSTS, and OAMOT in terms of maturity. I get where you're coming from. I just don't think WDADU can all be put into that same pot--it's not a uniformly immature album; instead, like many first albums, it shows flashes of maturity of brilliance but does waver in spots.

?

#337
Quote from: orcus116 on December 29, 2012, 11:33:21 PM
You cite very poor melodies yet CM, TDEN and AROP contain some of the worst phoned-in, surface level nu-metal riffing in their catalog. WDADU captures the intricacies of a young band starting out with, yes, some influences but there is absolutely no excuse for a group of world talented musicians as much older, experienced, wiser men to be releasing such lazy material as those other three songs.
QFT. I think the vocal melodies in the verses of both TDEN and AROP are pretty lazy, CM doesn't shine in that department, either. The instrumental section in AROP also feels like it was thrown there just for the sake of making it longer and a bit more complex than an average hit single. And while I guess TDEN is supposed to be chaotic, it feels just random and wanky - even The Dance of Eternity sounds more carefully structured.

Obviously WD&DU has some clunky moments, but they can be excused somehow because the band members were still so young. But Systematic Chaos was the 9th DT album and at that point I think they could've easily come up with better written songs than TDEN, for example.

The Presence of Frenemies

IMO, the AROP Bebot solo is as immature as just about anything else in DT history, too.

Pols Voice

Quote from: orcus116 on December 29, 2012, 11:33:21 PM
You cite very poor melodies yet CM, TDEN and AROP contain some of the worst phoned-in, surface level nu-metal riffing in their catalog. WDADU captures the intricacies of a young band starting out with, yes, some influences but there is absolutely no excuse for a group of world talented musicians as much older, experienced, wiser men to be releasing such lazy material as those other three songs.

:clap:

BlobVanDam

Quote from: orcus116 on December 29, 2012, 11:33:21 PM
You cite very poor melodies yet CM, TDEN and AROP contain some of the worst phoned-in, surface level nu-metal riffing in their catalog. WDADU captures the intricacies of a young band starting out with, yes, some influences but there is absolutely no excuse for a group of world talented musicians as much older, experienced, wiser men to be releasing such lazy material as those other three songs.

Aside from maybe TDEN, there's nothing nu-metal about those songs. Not a metal fan, I take it? Learn your metal.
CM, TDEN and AROP still clearly show the talent of an experienced band who can craft melodies and harmonies. The choruses alone clearly display that.
WDADU largely fails at the most basic levels of songwriting, with clunky and awkward phrasing that could only have been written by a bunch of young amateurs, and tacked together songwriting that even puts AROP's instrumental section to shame. At best WDADU manages passable.

Present DT's "lazy" songwriting is still leagues ahead of early DT's best attempts.

The Presence of Frenemies

Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 01:27:55 AM
CM, TDEN and AROP still clearly show the talent of an experienced band who can craft melodies and harmonies. The choruses alone clearly display that.

Afterlife's chorus is just as well-written as any of those.

?

Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 30, 2012, 01:52:55 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 01:27:55 AM
CM, TDEN and AROP still clearly show the talent of an experienced band who can craft melodies and harmonies. The choruses alone clearly display that.

Afterlife's chorus is just as well-written as any of those.
The whole song is better-written than any of those. And songs like A Fortune in Lies, Status Seeker and Ytse Jam aren't any worse-structured than, say, The Ministry of Lost Souls.

wasteland

The only song of WDADU that I find seriously lacking music and vocally wise (and I'm not taking into account Charlie's vocals, or I would need to downgrade the whole album more than it deserves) is The Ones Who Help To.... There is nothing I would call seriously wrong with the other song, besides a certain quirkiness in the melodies of LFAGA. Songs like A Fortune In Lies, Afterlife and The Killing Hand, on the other hand (no pun intended) can walk proudly among most newere DT songs.

?

I love TOWHTSTS! :( I have no problem with the vocal lines in that song at all (except maybe "My melting hands streaked the glass", which sounds a bit awkward), and while there are quite many tempo changes, it doesn't feel like multiple songs glued together, unlike some later DT songs (Octavarium, The Ministry of Lost Souls). However, Light Fuse & Get Away is clearly the weak point of WD&DU in terms of structuring and vocal phrasing.

Pols Voice

I don't mind The Ones... but it's the least memorable song from the album for me (but not the worst).

BlobVanDam

Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 30, 2012, 01:52:55 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on December 30, 2012, 01:27:55 AM
CM, TDEN and AROP still clearly show the talent of an experienced band who can craft melodies and harmonies. The choruses alone clearly display that.

Afterlife's chorus is just as well-written as any of those.

Afterlife does have a really good chorus, and it's definitely one of my favourites off the album (especially for its more conventional structure), but the song still has songwriting issues. It highlights their early problems with the bass fitting the correct register and gelling with the song. The bass behind that thrashy riff really clashes. It's more obvious on Score with a better mix than it is on WDADU though.

The Presence of Frenemies

I think the question really becomes which issue you take more offense to: an instrument (including vocals) not fitting the song, or a section not fitting the song. WDADU certainly is a worse offender in the former category (AROP Bebot solo aside), but with a few exceptions (the bad "transitions" in LFAGA being the most glaring), most of the sections in WDADU gel better as songs than the latter-day DT stuff, where they've fallen into a habit of pasting in long instrumental sections with different grooves, tempos, and time signatures than are contained in the rest of the song.

So it really depends on what jars you more. For me, I can ignore/compartmentalize out a bass part or some vocal phrasing. I can't ignore an entire section of a song.

BlobVanDam

Quote from: The Presence of Frenemies on December 30, 2012, 03:59:39 AM
I think the question really becomes which issue you take more offense to: an instrument (including vocals) not fitting the song, or a section not fitting the song. WDADU certainly is a worse offender in the former category (AROP Bebot solo aside), but with a few exceptions (the bad "transitions" in LFAGA being the most glaring), most of the sections in WDADU gel better as songs than the latter-day DT stuff, where they've fallen into a habit of pasting in long instrumental sections with different grooves, tempos, and time signatures than are contained in the rest of the song.

So it really depends on what jars you more. For me, I can ignore/compartmentalize out a bass part or some vocal phrasing. I can't ignore an entire section of a song.

I don't agree that WDADU gels better than more recent songs. Yeah, newer DT songs do have some jarring transitions, but the issue is overblown in general, and the sections are long enough that a transition here or there doesn't affect the flow that much at all. WDADU switches around more often, and more regularly abandons the tempo and switches on a dime. Not that there aren't several examples of modern DT doing that (such as AROP's pasted in instrumental section), but a lot of the modern transitions that people criticize are a hell of a lot smoother than WDADU. :dunno:

Jaffa

I don't think I have very many truly controversial opinions.  6:00 and The Great Debate are each among my least favorite DT songs; I think that's probably about as controversial as I get, really. 

Unless you count my undying love for the JLB version of To Live Forever as controversial.