Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[TheGreatPretender]

I think Live Albums are best experienced if there's video footage to boot. There are certain versions of songs that I enjoy just listening to like Score's 6 Degrees of Inner Turbulence, or When Dream And Day Reunite (as opposed to the original), but generally speaking, I won't listen to live songs unless I'm actually watching the concert on DVD/Blu-Ray.

[MoraWintersoul]

Yeah, if ever you change your mind, DT live albums are the place to go

Hey, now that I'm thinking of it, it's not exactly controversial, but I see divided opinions on this: Speaking as a person that holds Space-Dye Vest in the deepest, most precious corner of her heart as a song that made sense of everything that hurt and that was confusing and still keeps making it - meaning, someone who thinks SDV is serious fucking business - Jordan didn't ruin it in Tarrytown. FAR from it. It was just how I imagined he would play it and I liked it, even though different solutions would be equally as good, or better (the original solution being, obviously, the best).

[wasteland]

I completely agree with you. I only wish he could have played it a little slower. It felt a tad rushed at times, especially during the first verses.

[TheGreatPretender]

Hey, now that I'm thinking of it, it's not exactly controversial, but I see divided opinions on this: Speaking as a person that holds Space-Dye Vest in the deepest, most precious corner of her heart as a song that made sense of everything that hurt and that was confusing and still keeps making it - meaning, someone who thinks SDV is serious fucking business - Jordan didn't ruin it in Tarrytown. FAR from it. It was just how I imagined he would play it and I liked it, even though different solutions would be equally as good, or better (the original solution being, obviously, the best).

I really wish that concert was recorded in good quality. Youtube videos taken by fans really don't do it justice.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

I really liked Live at the Marquee. The production is great, the setlist is, albeit small, great and enjoyable. Plus, you get "Bombay Vindaloo", which is a great jam track. James LaBrie as absolutely killer too (he had a cold, so there are some overdubs present, but still, it's awesome).

I thought LATM was entirely overdubbed? But the vocals are awesome anyway.

[MoraWintersoul]

I completely agree with you. I only wish he could have played it a little slower. It felt a tad rushed at times, especially during the first verses.

I am not usually bothered by playing a song faster or slower - in my head, it's always exactly the same song. But yes, it would have been better, because it would have been just far away enough from the original to keep it fresh and interesting.

[?]

I know I've said this before, but I can't think of any DT song that sounds better live than on the album, except some WDADU songs with James singing (note: I love WDADU and I have no problem with Charlie's vocals on that album, but AFIL and TKH on Marquee and Afterlife on Score just gain more power with James' vocals).

And when it comes to the extended intros/solos/jams/whatever, they rarely impress me at all. Some of them can be cool (Another Hand, To Live Forever on Live in Tokyo), but none of them make the songs any better IMO. The worst offenders are Beyond This Life on Budokan (the instrumental section in the studio version is overkill already, but this takes it even further - ugh!), Surrounded on CIM (they managed to turn a beautiful song into a JP/JR wankfest - fortunately they played it in the original form for the upcoming live album) and Hollow Years on Budokan (that solo is SO overrated). I also find the extended intros to TSCO and Octavarium on Score and the beginning of the ToT portion in Schmedley Wilcox on CIM pretty boring. I mean, the intro to Octavarium is pretty long already, but Jordan manages to stretch it for a few minutes more - they could've found time for another song in the setlist had they not made TSCO and Octavarium so damn long!

[wasteland]

I strongly disagree! I can only find 2 or so live extension that weren't good for the song in the whole live catalogue. One of them is what they did to Metropolis in 2009/2010 and the other was the overlong outro of Solitary Shell in the same timeframe.

[?]

Well, unfortunately most of these extensions don't add anything to the songs in my eyes. However, I did watch Metropolis from Luna Park before the videos got taken down and the the little jam before James starts singing the last part sounded pretty neat - can't wait to see that on the DVD! But usually I prefer to hear the songs the way they've been written, with some little changes that make them a bit different from the studio versions. Maybe my overall lack of interest in the jams is part of the reason why I like Kevin Moore so much - he is more of a songwriter than an instrumentalist. Hopefully I didn't start yet another keyboardist debate!

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Eh, I don't think the jams are all good or bad. The Take The Time live outro slays whatever the form, Hollow Years with the extended intro and solo and TSM with the full band are pretty awesome as well. Beyond This Life at Budokan was cool--Jordan and Mike's duet thing was pretty great, in particular. And, of course, any of James' vocal alterations pre-accident are incredible. However, Another Hand and the Surrounded flurry of notes detracted from the songs, and the later '96- version of TKH had good stuff (JPs final solo) and bad stuff (Why is Carol of the Bells in there???). So overall, there are some gems and some clunkers. However, I like the concept in general--actually means there's a real chance the version could be superior to the original if the live addition is cool.

[MoraWintersoul]

There's a buttload of awesome extensions and jams that didn't make official DVDs but I do get what you're saying. It's just that, while Kev was around, they were mostly guitar jams, so it's better for us who love them to have keyboards in there as well, with Jordan and Derek

[wasteland]

Indeed. ?, why don't you check this awesome video? I uploaded it a while ago to show the world what can happen when the band plays To Live Forever 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VddMqW-I44

As it was said, it's a shame that the 99% of great live extensions/improvisations never made DVDs or even audio official releases. There should be a dedicated compilation.

[?]

That TLF jam had some nice moments, but it's way too long. Oh, and I forgot the "electric" version of TSM, that's pretty cool (although not better than the studio version) actually!

Time for another controversial opinion related to the live releases: I think Score is overrated. James is fortunately in top form and he saves the release, but unfortunately the setlist isn't the best possible: there are gems like TROAE, Afterlife and UAGM and it's also cool to hear Another Won in a more polished form and with better vocals, Innocence Faded is nice as well.

But mostly the setlist isn't great: I Walk Beside You is an anticlimax after Root, Raise the Knife is the most overrated of DT's B-sides and the live version didn't change my opinion on it and the extended intro to Spirit isn't that great. The second set isn't much better: they wasted 40 minutes playing Six Degrees (some parts sound nice with the orchestra, but for example in The Test they aren't doing anything - The Glass Prison would've been a much more fitting song for an anniversary show like this, since it's a fan favorite and hadn't been released on any official DVD), TALW is a good choice to be played with an orchestra, but the song itself isn't something I would include in a 20th anniversary setlist, and as said, Octavarium has that overlong intro.

But fortunately James sounds great and the whole band seems to be enjoying the gig a lot - those two factors and some great songs in the setlist save Score from being a lackluster release and obviously it's much better than Chaos in Motion. However, I still think Live in Tokyo is the best DVD DT have put out - awesome setlist, the band plays excellently and while the off-stage footage breaks the flow a bit, it's entertaining to watch.

[MoraWintersoul]

Luckily for me, I dig all of SDOIT, and it has made Score really awesome for me; I also love concerts based on some sort of a concept so the "counting down" thing was even more awesome for me, especially since I didn't know the setlist before I watched it so it was a cool moment of revelation. I remember being slightly disappointed over the fact they chose to play UAGM, which I didn't like much at the time, but the DVD has improved my opinion of the song. JP's solo was as tight as on the original release and JLB beat his LIT performance of that song, easily.

LIT is an amazing DVD, I agree. I watched it so many times, I know it frame by frame. Doesn't hurt that it has Kevin playing I do think it's a good thing he left DT, as I said previously in the thread, since I love everything he did after he left DT, but I would have loved to have seen him on the Awake tour. Imagine a DVD based around WDADU, IAW and Awake with Kevin in '94 or '95 (provided he was still interested in playing, of course)

[Ruba]

Imagine a DVD based around WDADU, IAW and Awake with Kevin in '94 or '95

I would cry with joy.

[?]

I do think it's a good thing he left DT, as I said previously in the thread, since I love everything he did after he left DT, but I would have loved to have seen him on the Awake tour. Imagine a DVD based around WDADU, IAW and Awake with Kevin in '94 or '95

If Kev had stuck around to tour with DT and they had filmed some show(s) in the Awake era, it would be their best live release for sure! I like Awake in Japan, but it was filmed after James' vocal rupture, there are no WDADU songs (they had been playing TOWHTSTS without keyboards in '94) and of course Kevin isn't there (not to say that Derek is bad).

[wasteland]

I have to agree with regard of the Score setlist, even though I am not bothered at all by the long intros and the inclusion of The Answer Lies Within (it's a cool little song, from the album they were out promoting, worked great with the orchestra, so I'm ok with it making the cut). On the other side, I too think Raise The Knife is overrated (Speak To Me, that was played in the same tour, would have worked just as good and better!) and that the full SDOIT was detrimental to the economy of the show. But I can understand its inclusion. In 2006, SDOIT was still a hoge phenomenon in the DT land, and the suite had not been yet included in its entirety in an official Live Release. The idea of making it the centerpiece of the setlist was I think one of the greatest motives behind the necessity of a live testimnony of the Octavarium tour, besides the chronological imprint of the setlists. And yet, it always felt weak to me.

As for TLF, you are crazy :

Luckily for me, I dig all of SDOIT, and it has made Score really awesome for me; I also love concerts based on some sort of a concept so the "counting down" thing was even more awesome for me, especially since I didn't know the setlist before I watched it so it was a cool moment of revelation. I remember being slightly disappointed over the fact they chose to play UAGM, which I didn't like much at the time, but the DVD has improved my opinion of the song. JP's solo was as tight as on the original release and JLB beat his LIT performance of that song, easily.

But... BEAR this honor in my NAAAAAAAAAAAME?  (the rest of the performance, especially instrumentally is of course superior in Score, though)

LIT is an amazing DVD, I agree. I watched it so many times, I know it frame by frame. Doesn't hurt that it has Kevin playing I do think it's a good thing he left DT, as I said previously in the thread, since I love everything he did after he left DT, but I would have loved to have seen him on the Awake tour. Imagine a DVD based around WDADU, IAW and Awake with Kevin in '94 or '95

I just wish they had included the whole performance. I'm still puzzled by their decision to leave out the two best songs of the album. You make a DVD of Images And Words Live and you don't include Metropolis and Learning To Live? 

The Awake tour setlist wasn't that great, in all fairness. The one in the latter part of the tour imporoved, though. Still, they sticked with a short set, that didn't do justice to any album other than Awake.

[MoraWintersoul]

But... BEAR this honor in my NAAAAAAAAAAAME?  (the rest of the performance, especially instrumentally is of course superior in Score, though)

That's the only part that's better

If Kev had stuck around to tour with DT and they had filmed some show(s) in the Awake era, it would be their best live release for sure! I like Awake in Japan, but it was filmed after James' vocal rupture, there are no WDADU songs (they had been playing TOWHTSTS without keyboards in '94) and of course Kevin isn't there (not to say that Derek is bad).

Not just after, but really closely after. I like watching it sometimes for the setlist but mostly it just makes me want to teleport on that stage with tea and hugs for James, the poor thing and yeah, I love Derek too, and his interpretations of IAW/Awake were both interesting and good, but this premise is SO interesting to me.

Also, if DT doesn't play SDV on the next tour, I am going to be genuinely angry*. The time is so right, right now.

*for about five seconds. I am used to the world not giving me things I want

[Ruba]

Piano > Continuum

Also, if DT doesn't play SDV on the next tour, I am going to be genuinely angry*. The time is so right, right now.

*for about five seconds. I am used to the world not giving me things I want

I think that it was a good decision to not play it without Kevin. After all, it is pretty much just Kevin and Kevin (JLB) there. Guitar is basically playing power chords and drums enter very late in the song.

And I don't wanna hear Anna Lee with JR. It is a Derek song.

[?]

I too think Raise The Knife is overrated (Speak To Me, that was played in the same tour, would have worked just as good and better!) and that the full SDOIT was detrimental to the economy of the show. But I can understand its inclusion. In 2006, SDOIT was still a hoge phenomenon in the DT land, and the suite had not been yet included in its entirety in an official Live Release. The idea of making it the centerpiece of the setlist was I think one of the greatest motives behind the necessity of a live testimnony of the Octavarium tour, besides the chronological imprint of the setlists. And yet, it always felt weak to me.

Yes, Speak to Me is amazing! But obviously MP picked Raise the Knife because it had never been on a live release and Speak to Me was on 5YIALT already. Regarding Six Degrees: in terms of the representation of albums in the setlist, it was unfair to pick a 42-minute piece from Six Degrees and just a 3-minute song from TOT.

I just wish they had included the whole performance. I'm still puzzled by their decision to leave out the two best songs of the album. You make a DVD of Images And Words Live and you don't include Metropolis and Learning To Live? 

Yeah, LIT would be even better if it included the full concert: Metropolis, Afterlife, Eve and LTL proshot from I&W era would be

Also, if DT doesn't play SDV on the next tour, I am going to be genuinely angry*. The time is so right, right now.

*for about five seconds. I am used to the world not giving me things I want

I find not playing SDV live both understandable and not understandable: of course it's KM's song, but DT have played loads of cover songs, even cover versions of full albums, yet they don't want to play one of their own songs that happens to be written by an ex-member? They played lots of songs mostly written by KevMo on the last tour already: 6:00, Surrounded and most notably Wait for Sleep. Lots of bands play songs that were 100% penned by an ex-member and some of them even have personal lyrics - why can't DT do that?

[wasteland]

I once again beg to disagree. As for the Piano/Continuum, it's all a matter of making sense. Either can be perfect or totally out of place. The continuum at the beginning of Octavarium is perfect, and so is the continuum solo at the end of Stargazer. A piano solo, though, is generally more interesting, layered and pleasant than a continuum solo like the one that ended up on CiM, but I'm not sure I would say the same if the latter had been something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mrmp2EaVChI .

On the other side, I think that playing SDV and AL wouldn't be neither disrespectful towards their main inspirator nor out of place. Dream Theater is a band with a great present, but also a marvellous past. Why shouldn't it be celebrated? Playing Space Dye Vest live would be a great tribute to Kevin and to his unique contribution to the band.

[Ruba]

Hmm yes, I wouldn't like to hear a piano solo at the end of the TDEN  . I just think that Rudess should use more piano.

But I'm not changing my mind with SDV. Unless Kevin comes and plays it onstage with DT. And I don't think it's going to happen.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Time for another controversial opinion related to the live releases: I think Score is overrated. James is fortunately in top form and he saves the release, but unfortunately the setlist isn't the best possible: there are gems like TROAE, Afterlife and UAGM and it's also cool to hear Another Won in a more polished form and with better vocals, Innocence Faded is nice as well.

But mostly the setlist isn't great: I Walk Beside You is an anticlimax after Root, Raise the Knife is the most overrated of DT's B-sides and the live version didn't change my opinion on it and the extended intro to Spirit isn't that great. The second set isn't much better: they wasted 40 minutes playing Six Degrees (some parts sound nice with the orchestra, but for example in The Test they aren't doing anything - The Glass Prison would've been a much more fitting song for an anniversary show like this, since it's a fan favorite and hadn't been released on any official DVD), TALW is a good choice to be played with an orchestra, but the song itself isn't something I would include in a 20th anniversary setlist, and as said, Octavarium has that overlong intro.

But fortunately James sounds great and the whole band seems to be enjoying the gig a lot - those two factors and some great songs in the setlist save Score from being a lackluster release and obviously it's much better than Chaos in Motion. However, I still think Live in Tokyo is the best DVD DT have put out - awesome setlist, the band plays excellently and while the off-stage footage breaks the flow a bit, it's entertaining to watch.

I pretty much agree with all of this, except I still have Score slightly higher than Live in Tokyo for sound quality and simple length reasons. Also right with wasteland's train of thought on this matter.

[MoraWintersoul]

... it's all a matter of making sense.

I think these should go down as JLB's most quotable words ever

I find not playing SDV live both understandable and not understandable: of course it's KM's song, but DT have played loads of cover songs, even cover versions of full albums, yet they don't want to play one of their own songs that happens to be written by an ex-member? They played lots of songs mostly written by KevMo on the last tour already: 6:00, Surrounded and most notably Wait for Sleep. Lots of bands play songs that were 100% penned by an ex-member and some of them even have personal lyrics - why can't DT do that?

I find it understandable in the MP era, since he didn't want to play it. Now, I think it would be excellent of them if they played it, because there is no harm whatsoever. I really cannot conceive why would that be disrespectful to Kevin. He has moved on from DT in the true sense of that word, so playing the only song off the official albums that didn't get the live, full-band treatment would not be logical, but also welcomed by a lot of us who are fans of that song, or who are not fans of silly arbitrary conventions about which songs are "off limits". There shouldn't be anything off limits. Just like you said, Wait For Sleep is just as much as Kevin's baby as SDV. SDV only received special treatment because someone decided it should have special treatment.

Now if Kevin said "never play this song without me", I would have understood. But from all I've read, it seems that is not the case, not to mention the fact he has rejected to get out on stage with DT to play it. Furthermore, he doesn't appear to be sensitive about the song in any shape or form - he doesn't mind drawing comparisons from that to other songs of his, or discussing the subject matter, and he has said that he is fine with DT putting it on Awake because it gave DT fans a hint of where will he go musically afterwards.

@Ruba - Anna Lee has JLB's lyrics so I wouldn't call it 100% Derek's song

[The Presence of Frenemies]

@Ruba - Anna Lee has JLB's lyrics so I wouldn't call it 100% Derek's song

JP also explictly said on the 5YIALT commentary the music isn't all Derek's either. In fact, MP said "the music was mostly Derek" and JP went out of his way to correct him.

[MoraWintersoul]

That song has the second most awkward line in the commentary for me, when JLB says he loves the song and that they should bring it back, and then MP shoots it down as being a Derek song.

[wasteland]

That song has the second most awkward line in the commentary for me, when JLB says he loves the song and that they should bring it back, and then MP shoots it down as being a Derek song.

The most awkward being? The dynamics of that bit remind me of the way the conversation developed when JM mentioned their old writing method/routine.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

That song has the second most awkward line in the commentary for me, when JLB says he loves the song and that they should bring it back, and then MP shoots it down as being a Derek song.

The most awkward being? The dynamics of that bit remind me of the way the conversation developed when JM mentioned their old writing method/routine.

At least with the Anna Lee bit MP conceded "maybe."

[?]

I find it understandable in the MP era, since he didn't want to play it. Now, I think it would be excellent of them if they played it, because there is no harm whatsoever. I really cannot conceive why would that be disrespectful to Kevin. He has moved on from DT in the true sense of that word, so playing the only song off the official albums that didn't get the live, full-band treatment would not be logical, but also welcomed by a lot of us who are fans of that song, or who are not fans of silly arbitrary conventions about which songs are "off limits". There shouldn't be anything off limits. Just like you said, Wait For Sleep is just as much as Kevin's baby as SDV. SDV only received special treatment because someone decided it should have special treatment.

Now if Kevin said "never play this song without me", I would have understood. But from all I've read, it seems that is not the case, not to mention the fact he has rejected to get out on stage with DT to play it. Furthermore, he doesn't appear to be sensitive about the song in any shape or form - he doesn't mind drawing comparisons from that to other songs of his, or discussing the subject matter, and he has said that he is fine with DT putting it on Awake because it gave DT fans a hint of where will he go musically afterwards.

Agreed completely. By now it's become perfectly clear that Kevin will never appear on the same stage with Dream Theater again, so if they want to play it at some point, now would be the right time. And if JP and JM don't like the song enough, JLB and JR could perform it as a duo version like they did at that solo show of Jordan's. It would be a nice little breather, especially if they returned to the "evening with" format.

EDIT: To be honest, I think the Budokan setlist could've been better too: so many songs from TOT but nothing from Awake? They also could've played some of the better songs from Six Degrees and skipped the terrible New Millennium.

[Ruba]

@Ruba - Anna Lee has JLB's lyrics so I wouldn't call it 100% Derek's song

Ahh yeah, that's how it is. I just remember reading from somewhere that somebody claimed it to be Derek song and thus it will not be played live.

[emtee]

Yeah the intro to 8V (song) on Score was too long and whenever I watch it on DVD or hear it I think to myself it's what
caused the band to pay a fine for running long that night. On such an already long song it just seemed unnecessary.

[Madman Shepherd]

@Ruba - Anna Lee has JLB's lyrics so I wouldn't call it 100% Derek's song

JP also explictly said on the 5YIALT commentary the music isn't all Derek's either. In fact, MP said "the music was mostly Derek" and JP went out of his way to correct him.

I noticed that too.  It made me question a lot of Mike's versions of events

[MoraWintersoul]

EDIT: To be honest, I think the Budokan setlist could've been better too: so many songs from TOT but nothing from Awake? They also could've played some of the better songs from Six Degrees and skipped the terrible New Millennium.

Ummm, if you have any time available at some point in the future, check out the tourography on MP's site for some setlists from the same tour - A LOT of them are vaaaaastly superior to Budokan. Or ask Marco, since he loves to talk about it

[Scorpion]

Case in point: DT @Madison Square Garden, 04/04/03.

1. As I Am
2. This Dying Soul
3. Beyond This Life
4. Hollow Years
5. The Great Debate
6. Endless Sacrifice
7. Another Day
8. Trial of Tears
---Intermission---
9. A Change of Seasons
10. Caught in a Web
11. Honor Thy Father
12. Vacant
13. Stream of Consciousness
14. Disappear
---Encore---
15. Pull Me Under
16. In the Name of God

[wasteland]

EDIT: To be honest, I think the Budokan setlist could've been better too: so many songs from TOT but nothing from Awake? They also could've played some of the better songs from Six Degrees and skipped the terrible New Millennium.

Ummm, if you have any time available at some point in the future, check out the tourography on MP's site for some setlists from the same tour - A LOT of them are vaaaaastly superior to Budokan. Or ask Marco, since he loves to talk about it

You are dead, lady 


How about:

   Cleveland, 20.03.2004

band history video (intro tape)
1.  As I Am
2.  This Dying Soul
3.  The Mirror/The Mirror (reprise)
4.  short piano set-up
5.  Through My Words
6.  Fatal Tragedy
7.  Hollow Years (w/ extended guitar solo)
8.  War Inside My Head
9.  The Test That Stumped Them All
10.  A Fortune in Lies
11.  Endless Sacrifice
12.  Finally Free
~~~intermission~~~
13.  Metropolis part 1
14.  Honor Thy Father
15.  keyboard solo
A Mind Beside Itself:
16.  I Erotomania
17.  II Voices (abridged)
18.  III The Silent Man (electric version)
19.  In the Name of God
~~~encore~~~
Dead Poets Society (intro tape)
A Change of Seasons:
20.  I The Crimson Sunrise
21.  II Innocence
22.  III Carpe Diem
23.  IV The Darkest of Winters
24.  V Another World
25.  VI The Inevitable Summer
26.  VII The Crimson Sunset