Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[pg1067]

Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs. My bottom 15 also includes Lie, Peruvian Skies, and (at the very bottom) Honor Thy Father.

I can't agree with you about TTT, but I have similar feelings about Under a Glass Moon.  It's not bottom 15, but it's in the bottom half (and maybe bottom quarter) of DT's catalog for me.  Lie, on the other hand is definitely a bottom 15-20 song, as is The Mirror (I like Lie >> The Mirror).  HTF is also a bottom of the barrel song.

I prefer The Astonishing to every 90's DT album (except SFAM).

Now THAT is controversial but maybe explained by the year when you became a fan.

[Revenge319]

Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs. My bottom 15 also includes Lie, Peruvian Skies, and (at the very bottom) Honor Thy Father.

I can't agree with you about TTT, but I have similar feelings about Under a Glass Moon.  It's not bottom 15, but it's in the bottom half (and maybe bottom quarter) of DT's catalog for me.  Lie, on the other hand is definitely a bottom 15-20 song, as is The Mirror (I like Lie >> The Mirror).  HTF is also a bottom of the barrel song.

I prefer The Astonishing to every 90's DT album (except SFAM).

Now THAT is controversial but maybe explained by the year when you became a fan.

Under A Glass Moon is rather low on my list as well, but both TTT and UAGM are still good songs. They're just not as good, for Dream Theater's standards.
The Mirror is much better than Lie, but even then, I still like Lie. As for HTF, I wouldn't even call it outright bad, but it's still the bottom of my list by a pretty significant margin. Runner-ups are JLMB and the aforementioned Peruvian Skies. So yeah, as you can tell, I think even the worst of Dream Theater is still alright in some way. TTT may be 15 away from the bottom, but it's still a very good song; just heavily outclassed by many other DT songs.

As for The Astonishing, I hadn't given it a good proper listen until last year. I did listen to it back in 2017, around the time I was about to go to an IW&B show (which was my first DT concert, and first concert (that I cared about) ever!), but I didn't really think much of it at first. But these days, definitely one of Dream Theater's better albums, I would say.

[bosk1]

Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs.

Correct.

Enigma Machine is one of the best DT instrumentals.

Correct again.  I'd definitely put Stream of Consciousness as #1.  But after that, Enigma Machine is definitely in the conversation for next best.

The Count of Tuscany has great lyrics; I really cannot see anything wrong with them.

Well, there isn't anything wrong with them, so correct yet again.  Wow, you're really on a roll! 

[other stuff]

Oh well.  3 out of 8 isn't bad for a first post. 

[Max Kuehnau]

Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs.

Correct.

Enigma Machine is one of the best DT instrumentals.

Correct again.  I'd definitely put Stream of Consciousness as #1.  But after that, Enigma Machine is definitely in the conversation for next best.

The Count of Tuscany has great lyrics; I really cannot see anything wrong with them.

Well, there isn't anything wrong with them, so correct yet again.  Wow, you're really on a roll! 

[other stuff]

Oh well.  3 out of 8 isn't bad for a first post. 

yeah, the guy should see my first post in this thread, oh dear

[gmillerdrake]

  I'd definitely put Stream of Consciousness as #1. 

I dig the song a lot but it's entirely too long. Towards the end there it repeats itself way too many times without adding anything. Very anticlimactic IMO

I still lean 'Erotomania' as my favorite....probably fueled by nostalgia....but certainly love the recent instrumental efforts

[Max Kuehnau]

Continuing on with the topic of instrumental pieces, I'd love it if DT15 were to have an instrumental piece.

[Revenge319]

yeah, the guy should see my first post in this thread, oh dear

What are your controversial thoughts? I tried looking for yours but couldn't find anything.

[Max Kuehnau]

yeah, the guy should see my first post in this thread, oh dear

What are your controversial thoughts? I tried looking for yours but couldn't find anything.

one of them is that MP should have left earlier than he did. You'll find more of them if you look for them.

[Revenge319]

  I'd definitely put Stream of Consciousness as #1. 

I dig the song a lot but it's entirely too long. Towards the end there it repeats itself way too many times without adding anything. Very anticlimactic IMO

I still lean 'Erotomania' as my favorite....probably fueled by nostalgia....but certainly love the recent instrumental efforts

Erotomania is my favorite solely because it leads directly into Voices. It's why I personally treat A Mind Beside Itself as, well, A Mind Beside Itself, rather than three separate entities. Separately, all three songs are great, but combined, they make for a truly beautiful piece of music.

[MirrorMask]

  I'd definitely put Stream of Consciousness as #1. 

I dig the song a lot but it's entirely too long. Towards the end there it repeats itself way too many times without adding anything. Very anticlimactic IMO

I still lean 'Erotomania' as my favorite....probably fueled by nostalgia....but certainly love the recent instrumental efforts

Agree on both counts. I like a lot SoC, it's moody and atmospheric and I love how it's riff based and not jam based, but at a certain point you kinda have to end the song, c'mon, finish it already.

And Erotomania is kickass 

[hefdaddy42]

Pretty sure I am in the extreme minority for whom Eve is DT's best instrumental (and one of their best songs, period).

[gzarruk]

  I'd definitely put Stream of Consciousness as #1. 

I dig the song a lot but it's entirely too long. Towards the end there it repeats itself way too many times without adding anything. Very anticlimactic IMO

I still lean 'Erotomania' as my favorite....probably fueled by nostalgia....but certainly love the recent instrumental efforts

All that you said, but exactly the opposite

Erotomania is really good, but it just loses me every time they go into the guitar shred section, and I feel like it, as a whole, accomplishes nothing on its own (though it helps set the mood for Voices, which is ). SOC, on the other side, is very emotional for me and love the way it builds up towards the end, it doesn't feel anticlimactic to me at all.

[Revenge319]

Pretty sure I am in the extreme minority for whom Eve is DT's best instrumental (and one of their best songs, period).

Eve is so good!! How'd I forget that one? When I eventually add all of the unreleased/demo songs to my DT song ranking list, Eve will likely be Top 40, bare minimum.

[The Walrus]

Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs. My bottom 15 also includes Lie, Peruvian Skies, and (at the very bottom) Honor Thy Father.
Black Clouds and Silver Linings is one of Dream Theater's best albums (my personal favorite, although I think SDoIT is Dream Theater's best effort).
Burning My Soul is a pretty good song.
Enigma Machine is one of the best DT instrumentals.
I prefer The Astonishing to every 90's DT album (except SFAM).
The Answer Lies Within and Build Me Up, Break Me Down deserve more love.
A Rite of Passage is WAY better than people make it out to be.
The Count of Tuscany has great lyrics; I really cannot see anything wrong with them.

Agreed with the bolded, with the exception that I can understand people's beef with TCOT's lyrics. The rest are blasphemers' talk 

[bosk1]

Pretty sure I am in the extreme minority for whom Eve is DT's best instrumental (and one of their best songs, period).

Just NO on all counts.  That is the sole example of a song by any band that is just so bad that it gets me angry that they wrote it and put their name on it.

[The Walrus]

Pretty sure I am in the extreme minority for whom Eve is DT's best instrumental (and one of their best songs, period).

Just NO on all counts.  That is the sole example of a song by any band that is just so bad that it gets me angry that they wrote it and put their name on it.

You apologize for those words right now. Eve is beautiful. Leave Eve alone!! 

[bosk1]

Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs. My bottom 15 also includes Lie, Peruvian Skies, and (at the very bottom) Honor Thy Father.
Black Clouds and Silver Linings is one of Dream Theater's best albums (my personal favorite, although I think SDoIT is Dream Theater's best effort).
Burning My Soul is a pretty good song.
Enigma Machine is one of the best DT instrumentals.
I prefer The Astonishing to every 90's DT album (except SFAM).
The Answer Lies Within and Build Me Up, Break Me Down deserve more love.
A Rite of Passage is WAY better than people make it out to be.
The Count of Tuscany has great lyrics; I really cannot see anything wrong with them.

Agreed with the bolded, with the exception that I can understand people's beef with TCOT's lyrics. The rest are blasphemers' talk 

In fairness, I can understand younger people's beef with the lyrics, because JP uses some silly cliches that are a product of an earlier time, and are pretty obscure in this day and age.  So I get that people who didn't grow up in that time and don't know that they are social cliches from that time won't get that JP used them to show that the Count was out of touch and anachronistic in his lifestyle, and may just think they are dumb lyrics. 

[cramx3]

No love for Raw Dog for a top DT instrumental? 

but seriously, The Answer Lies Within is beautiful and Build Me UP BReak Me Down is a fun rocker song.  I love em both.

[Revenge319]

No love for Raw Dog for a top DT instrumental? 

but seriously, The Answer Lies Within is beautiful and Build Me UP BReak Me Down is a fun rocker song.  I love em both.

I've only ever listened to Raw Dog once. I guess I'll have to give it another go sometime.

[cramx3]

Well that was a joke, although I do find some enjoyment in the wankery, it's just not a consistent song with a flow.  I think I rank it higher in DT instrumentals than most, but it's certainly not at the top.  Enigma Machine would be higher.

[bosk1]

...and Build Me UP BReak Me Down is a fun rocker song. 

I missed that one in my post earlier.  Yeah, great song.  Love it. 

[MinistroRaven]

https://www.facebook.com/toshio.onodera/videos/10214097897989529/?lh=115ff26f2c758753dcda4f7995a17e49

[Lethean]

Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs. My bottom 15 also includes Lie, Peruvian Skies, and (at the very bottom) Honor Thy Father.
Black Clouds and Silver Linings is one of Dream Theater's best albums (my personal favorite, although I think SDoIT is Dream Theater's best effort).
Burning My Soul is a pretty good song.
Enigma Machine is one of the best DT instrumentals.
I prefer The Astonishing to every 90's DT album (except SFAM).
The Answer Lies Within and Build Me Up, Break Me Down deserve more love.
A Rite of Passage is WAY better than people make it out to be.
The Count of Tuscany has great lyrics; I really cannot see anything wrong with them.

Agreed with the bolded, with the exception that I can understand people's beef with TCOT's lyrics. The rest are blasphemers' talk 

In fairness, I can understand younger people's beef with the lyrics, because JP uses some silly cliches that are a product of an earlier time, and are pretty obscure in this day and age.  So I get that people who didn't grow up in that time and don't know that they are social cliches from that time won't get that JP used them to show that the Count was out of touch and anachronistic in his lifestyle, and may just think they are dumb lyrics.

I'd like to hear more about this, if you don't mind.

[bosk1]

https://www.facebook.com/toshio.onodera/videos/10214097897989529/?lh=115ff26f2c758753dcda4f7995a17e49

  I don't understand.  What is the for?

[bosk1]

Take The Time is in my bottom 15 Dream Theater songs. My bottom 15 also includes Lie, Peruvian Skies, and (at the very bottom) Honor Thy Father.
Black Clouds and Silver Linings is one of Dream Theater's best albums (my personal favorite, although I think SDoIT is Dream Theater's best effort).
Burning My Soul is a pretty good song.
Enigma Machine is one of the best DT instrumentals.
I prefer The Astonishing to every 90's DT album (except SFAM).
The Answer Lies Within and Build Me Up, Break Me Down deserve more love.
A Rite of Passage is WAY better than people make it out to be.
The Count of Tuscany has great lyrics; I really cannot see anything wrong with them.

Agreed with the bolded, with the exception that I can understand people's beef with TCOT's lyrics. The rest are blasphemers' talk 

In fairness, I can understand younger people's beef with the lyrics, because JP uses some silly cliches that are a product of an earlier time, and are pretty obscure in this day and age.  So I get that people who didn't grow up in that time and don't know that they are social cliches from that time won't get that JP used them to show that the Count was out of touch and anachronistic in his lifestyle, and may just think they are dumb lyrics.

I'd like to hear more about this, if you don't mind.

For example, the "all the finest wines improve with age" line.  It is a direct quote from an ad campaign from the '80s.  I forget which wine brand it was, but it was one of the first "wine in the box" wines that you could buy.  I remember the commercials trying to look serious and sophisticated, and using that line, and it being unintentionally humorous because NOBODY took it seriously with relation to that wine.  It was even indirectly made fun of in a couple of movies in years following, where people would refer to wine by the box as being decidedly unsophisticated, but people who would actually drink that kind of wine not being sophisticated enough to realize that.  Anyhow, that's sort of the context for that quote in TCOT.  The whole thing about the Count is that he and his family are living out of time, and the Count is only slightly aware of the fact that they would be considered odd and out of time by others on the outside.  So that line fits with JP's portrayal of the character as unwittingly anachronistic.  That's why that is such a GREAT line if you happen to know that back story.  It is definitely an "I see what you did there, John--that was pretty clever" moment.  But if you have no idea because you are too young to have seen those commercials and to know that, it doesn't come across as clever--it comes across as silly and out of place.

[Setlist Scotty]

https://www.facebook.com/toshio.onodera/videos/10214097897989529/?lh=115ff26f2c758753dcda4f7995a17e49

  I don't understand.  What is the for?

Read the comments - lots of bickering back and forth. Or maybe MR has an issue with MM's drum improv during the outro. And I gotta say, while technically impressive, his performance just feels weird in that spot.

[MoraWintersoul]

Pretty sure I am in the extreme minority for whom Eve is DT's best instrumental (and one of their best songs, period).

You're not. DT have a lot of great instrumentals, but a lot of us love that song. I would argue there's absolutely nothing to dislike about it, but folks be hatin' on Kevin Moore around here!

[hefdaddy42]

Pretty sure I am in the extreme minority for whom Eve is DT's best instrumental (and one of their best songs, period).

Just NO on all counts.  That is the sole example of a song by any band that is just so bad that it gets me angry that they wrote it and put their name on it.

I was talking about Eve, not Raw Dog.

[bosk1]

Every copy of Eve should be burned in an eternal, unquenchable fire.

[gzarruk]

https://www.facebook.com/toshio.onodera/videos/10214097897989529/?lh=115ff26f2c758753dcda4f7995a17e49

  I don't understand.  What is the for?

Read the comments - lots of bickering back and forth. Or maybe MR has an issue with MM's drum improv during the outro. And I gotta say, while technically impressive, his performance just feels weird in that spot.

Some people are just impossible to please (talking about these comments, not Scotty). Back in 2014, when they first played FF with Mangini, he played that section in a simple, more musical way and many complained that Mike played it "too safe", that it was too simple, not as good as MP, etc. Now, when he goes crazy on his own way and does this mindblowing thing, people complain it's not musical enough, that he's just bashing the drums, blah blah. This time they've (DT) decided to approach differently and, while what he's playing here isn't as musical, it's just supposed to be a fun solo spot during a song.

[pg1067]

Under A Glass Moon is rather low on my list as well, but both TTT and UAGM are still good songs. They're just not as good, for Dream Theater's standards.
The Mirror is much better than Lie, but even then, I still like Lie. As for HTF, I wouldn't even call it outright bad, but it's still the bottom of my list by a pretty significant margin. Runner-ups are JLMB and the aforementioned Peruvian Skies. So yeah, as you can tell, I think even the worst of Dream Theater is still alright in some way. TTT may be 15 away from the bottom, but it's still a very good song; just heavily outclassed by many other DT songs.

I honestly don't like The Mirror (and, to a lesser extent, Lie).  If I'm listening to Awake, I'll skip both.  Of course, in the grand scheme of music, they're not bad songs, but, as you said, heavily outclassed by many other DT songs.

As far as instrumentals, SOC is my undisputed favorite (although the slow section toward the end does bog it down a bit).

Ytse Jam gets 4/5 (esp. considering when it was written)
Erotomania gets 3.5/5 (never been a favorite of mine)
Hell's Kitchen gets 4/5 (but for completely different reasons)
Dance of Eternity is a very close runner up to SOC - minimum of 4.5/5
Enigma Machine is 3.5/5

I'm not considering Overture 1928 outside the context of SFAM, but it would get 4.5/5 if I did.  Nor am I considering False Awakening Suite or the SDOIT Overture (the former not really being a band track).

Eve is fine, but it doesn't compare to the rest.  I think I've heard Raw Dog maybe twice, and I wasn't impressed.

[hefdaddy42]

Every copy of Eve should be burned in an eternal, unquenchable fire.

Completely baffling.

[cramx3]

I've never been a big fan of Eve, but simply because it's a style of music thats not to my taste.  It is a very beautiful piece though and I totally get why some would really like it. 

[IDontNotDoThings]

Eve is pretty cool. It bores me when I'm not in the mood for it, & I'm glad it was cut from Awake, but I think it's a nice little ambient piece which is certainly not as unlistenable as Bosk is making it out to be.

Considering this is the same band that's brought us Raw Dog, Honour Thy Father, I Walk Beside You, Beneath The Surface, Misunderstood, Losing Faythe, Lord Nafaryus, and about half of Falling Into Infinity, I don't think Eve is anywhere even near the band's bottom tier of songs. I don't get how someone could have such a vitriolic hatred towards a song that's so inoffensive.

[TAC]

Eve is great. I remember those early shows where they would play it, and I thought it was awesome.