Your Controversial Opinions on DT

Started by Lucidity, December 17, 2012, 08:28:25 PM

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hefdaddy42

Quote from: Dublagent66 on October 02, 2019, 03:07:41 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 01, 2019, 04:12:54 PM
As Luke Skywalker said:  "Every word of what you just said is wrong."  With all due respect, of course.  :biggrin:

Just curious.  Is that a quote from one of the movies?  I don't recall Luke ever saying those words.
bosky was paraphrasing.  The actual quote went:

"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

Skeever

Quote from: Northern Lion on October 01, 2019, 04:01:42 PM
8V is the DT epic I listen to the least.  However, when I'm in the right mood and feeling particularly contemplative, I'll give it a go and will enjoy every minute of it.  Those times are just rare for me.  But I have to say that the scream James does at the end never ceases to give me the chills.

My controversial opinion is 3 fold.  1. In the Presence of Enemies is actually DT's best song, 2. it's lyrics are JP's best story, and 3. cutting it in half on the album was DT's biggest musical mistake and the only way to properly listen to this masterpiece is by gluing it together using Audacity.
Just a comment on 2., the lyrics actually seem to be inspired heavily by, if not an adaptation of, the first volume of the "Priest" manga, although I do not believe this has ever been confirmed or credited by JP, other than the part of the SC documentary bonus disc where he mentions manga as an inspiration for the lyrics of the album in general.

pg1067

Quote from: Skeever on October 02, 2019, 03:23:13 PM
Quote from: Northern Lion on October 01, 2019, 04:01:42 PM
8V is the DT epic I listen to the least.  However, when I'm in the right mood and feeling particularly contemplative, I'll give it a go and will enjoy every minute of it.  Those times are just rare for me.  But I have to say that the scream James does at the end never ceases to give me the chills.

My controversial opinion is 3 fold.  1. In the Presence of Enemies is actually DT's best song, 2. it's lyrics are JP's best story, and 3. cutting it in half on the album was DT's biggest musical mistake and the only way to properly listen to this masterpiece is by gluing it together using Audacity.
Just a comment on 2., the lyrics actually seem to be inspired heavily by, if not an adaptation of, the first volume of the "Priest" manga, although I do not believe this has ever been confirmed or credited by JP, other than the part of the SC documentary bonus disc where he mentions manga as an inspiration for the lyrics of the album in general.

I could be mistaken, but I recall a post many years ago at the old MP forum in which someone walked through the lyrics for ITPOE and matched them up to particular panels from the comic book (I assume that's what "manga" is other than the Italian word for "to eat").  Someone (maybe the same person) did the same thing with some of the lyrics of SDOIT.  It really seemed like plagiarism to me, and I always wondered whether the rights owners of the source material ever made anything of it.

bosk1

Yeah, my recollection is that parts of it were word for word, or close to it.

MirrorMask

Quote from: pg1067 link=topic=35056.msg2588070#msg2588070 (I assume that's what "manga" is other than the Italian word for "to eat").
/quote]

Almost there, it's "mangia". To eat is "mangiare", I eat is "Io mangio", "mangia" could be seen as a suggestion. "The dish is ready, come on, eat!" = "Il piatto è pronto, mangia".

The Walrus

Quote from: pg1067 on October 02, 2019, 04:10:04 PM
Quote from: Skeever on October 02, 2019, 03:23:13 PM
Quote from: Northern Lion on October 01, 2019, 04:01:42 PM
8V is the DT epic I listen to the least.  However, when I'm in the right mood and feeling particularly contemplative, I'll give it a go and will enjoy every minute of it.  Those times are just rare for me.  But I have to say that the scream James does at the end never ceases to give me the chills.

My controversial opinion is 3 fold.  1. In the Presence of Enemies is actually DT's best song, 2. it's lyrics are JP's best story, and 3. cutting it in half on the album was DT's biggest musical mistake and the only way to properly listen to this masterpiece is by gluing it together using Audacity.
Just a comment on 2., the lyrics actually seem to be inspired heavily by, if not an adaptation of, the first volume of the "Priest" manga, although I do not believe this has ever been confirmed or credited by JP, other than the part of the SC documentary bonus disc where he mentions manga as an inspiration for the lyrics of the album in general.

I could be mistaken, but I recall a post many years ago at the old MP forum in which someone walked through the lyrics for ITPOE and matched them up to particular panels from the comic book (I assume that's what "manga" is other than the Italian word for "to eat").  Someone (maybe the same person) did the same thing with some of the lyrics of SDOIT.  It really seemed like plagiarism to me, and I always wondered whether the rights owners of the source material ever made anything of it.

Yup, I always think of that post when ITPOE comes on.

hefdaddy42

Quote from: bosk1 on October 02, 2019, 05:39:50 PM
Yeah, my recollection is that parts of it were word for word, or close to it.
Especially for 6DOIT. 

pg1067

Quote from: MirrorMask on October 03, 2019, 01:06:53 AM
Almost there, it's "mangia". To eat is "mangiare", I eat is "Io mangio", "mangia" could be seen as a suggestion. "The dish is ready, come on, eat!" = "Il piatto è pronto, mangia".

I've only ever heard it used in the suggestion form (very uncommonly at Italian restaurants here in California):  someone puts out some food and says, "mangia!"  It's possible I heard it otherwise when I visited Firenze 18 years ago, but I don't recall that.

Max Kuehnau

Another one from me: We would have ended up with a different fourth album (different from FII anyway) had Jordan joined the band right away (we all know why he didn't and all that) I'd have preferred him in the band earlier than 1998.

NoFred

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 03, 2019, 07:19:47 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 02, 2019, 05:39:50 PM
Yeah, my recollection is that parts of it were word for word, or close to it.
Especially for 6DOIT.

What parts? I knew about the ITPOE comic but not about this.

hefdaddy42

Quote from: NoFred on October 03, 2019, 11:41:58 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 03, 2019, 07:19:47 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 02, 2019, 05:39:50 PM
Yeah, my recollection is that parts of it were word for word, or close to it.
Especially for 6DOIT.

What parts? I knew about the ITPOE comic but not about this.
I don't remember the specific parts.  bouttocrash, one of our longtime members here, found a psychology textbook or something that had some passages that were virtually identical.  She posted pics for proof, so it wasn't just hearsay.

pg1067

Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 03, 2019, 12:19:44 PM
Quote from: NoFred on October 03, 2019, 11:41:58 AM
Quote from: hefdaddy42 on October 03, 2019, 07:19:47 AM
Quote from: bosk1 on October 02, 2019, 05:39:50 PM
Yeah, my recollection is that parts of it were word for word, or close to it.
Especially for 6DOIT.

What parts? I knew about the ITPOE comic but not about this.
I don't remember the specific parts.  bouttocrash, one of our longtime members here, found a psychology textbook or something that had some passages that were virtually identical.  She posted pics for proof, so it wasn't just hearsay.

My recollection is that it was the Petrucci sections -- particularly the stuff in ATC and LT about a girl from a small midwestern town who dresses in black and in SS about the boy.

NoFred

Thanks, would be fine if he admitted it. I recall there was a light denial or no comment regarding the comic, which bothered me at that time.

bosk1

Quote from: NoFred on October 03, 2019, 12:59:37 PM
Thanks, would be fine if he admitted it. I recall there was a light denial or no comment regarding the comic, which bothered me at that time.

No, I don't think so.  I've only ever heard him be pretty open about that fact.  In fact, I remember him saying that the lyrics came from a manga before anyone had posted the Priest connection.

As far as SDOIT, I don't think anyone has ever asked them about it.  But, yeah, some of the parts of the title track were taken from some case studies in a psychology text. 

Volante99

Petrucci needs to cut his hair. The beard isn't even that bad but that haaaaaair. Sorry, I said it.

The band could have easily financed an entire Astonishing DVD with orchestra just by dipping into their Just For Men budget. If they all spent a little less time straightening their hair they probably could have had a new album out by now.

Really at this point only Myung should be rocking the long hair.

NoFred

Quote from: bosk1 on October 04, 2019, 09:14:15 AM
Quote from: NoFred on October 03, 2019, 12:59:37 PM
Thanks, would be fine if he admitted it. I recall there was a light denial or no comment regarding the comic, which bothered me at that time.

No, I don't think so.  I've only ever heard him be pretty open about that fact.  In fact, I remember him saying that the lyrics came from a manga before anyone had posted the Priest connection.

As far as SDOIT, I don't think anyone has ever asked them about it.  But, yeah, some of the parts of the title track were taken from some case studies in a psychology text.

Ah OK thanks, I only remember from what was in that thread probably. The word for word lifting was a bummer, as I felt that album was already a low point creatively (ironically except for ITPOE itself) but have warmed up to in the years since.


bosk1


NoFred

I just prefer "inspired by" over copied, unless there's direct attribution given to the original author(s)

bosk1

To me, it doesn't matter much.  There isn't (or at least, shouldn't be) any negative connotation to "copied" in this context.  The song and lyrics as a whole were absolutely "inspired by" the manga.  And some lines of the lyrics were directly "copied" from the source material.  That's all fine, and has been custom in the music industry for a very long time (probably ever since there was a music industry).

NoFred

Probably. Not how I would have gone about it.

pg1067

Quote from: bosk1 on October 04, 2019, 12:03:57 PM
To me, it doesn't matter much.  There isn't (or at least, shouldn't be) any negative connotation to "copied" in this context.  The song and lyrics as a whole were absolutely "inspired by" the manga.  And some lines of the lyrics were directly "copied" from the source material.  That's all fine, and has been custom in the music industry for a very long time (probably ever since there was a music industry).

I tend to agree with "NoFred."  I don't really like ITPOE (and don't read comic books), so that's less of a big deal for me, but it matters a little on SDOIT, which I love every bit of except for Goodnight Kiss, which I only like a lot.  Copying word for word is sometimes referred to as copyright infringement.  If you're going to do that, I tend to think there should at least be some acknowledgment in the liner notes.

bosk1

I mentioned this in the past when it was brought up, but that may have been before you were active here.  You may be correct in terms of the letter of the law.  But custom and practice in the industry is that, when a work of music quotes a work of literature, it is almost never done that way and, almost always, nobody cares.  Led Zep quotes lines from Tolkien, and last I heard, there is no direct acknowledgement in the liner notes.  Or Bowie (Orwell).  Or Katie Perry (Kerouac).  Or Kate Bush (Bronte).  Or the Beatles.  Or Maiden.  And on and on.  It just isn't really a thing.

Now, that's different from a band ripping off another musician's lyrics or music and trying to pass it off as their own.  That sort of thing obviously IS a big deal.  But that is a very different thing, even if it may feel similar in many respects.

DoctorAction

I agree that unacknowledged word-for-word copying (or near to it) is a bummer. Total bummer to realise that the author of something you love openly credited someone else's work to themselves. Whoever it is. Maiden, Zep or DT. It materially reduces their creative input into the work in question and their integrity.

I was far from delighted with the recent Maiden case. The ITPOE was acknowledged by JP but still isn't great.

bosk1

#9753
Well, I guess you are entitled to feel how you feel.  :dunno:  But I find no reason to have to manufacture reasons to enjoy something less.  If it is enjoyable, it is enjoyable whether the artist was inspired by another work or not.

NoFred

Well I have the song in my DT top 10 (was my first post here actually...) so not enjoying any less.

DoctorAction

I only enjoy Hallowed Be Thy Name and ITPOE a little less. But I think less of both parties as artists because of the copying. That's not manufacturing a reason to enjoy something less. We're all entitled to our perspectives. Mine is that my simple admiration of a creative process is lessened for knowing that the artists didn't write what they claimed they did by their copyright assertions. It's hardly a small thing. I wouldn't expect to keep a qualification if it were discovered i copied a significant part of it from somewhere else. Or an athletics award if I failed a drug test.

We can disagree about the degree of significance but it is dishonest.

bosk1

Two MAJOR flaws in what you just posted:

First, the DT example and the Maiden example you posted are not equivalent.  At all.  Maiden took somebody else's music and lyrics (I think it was both, right?) and tried to pass them off as their own.  Not cool.  DT, in contrast, took a work from a completely different medium and turned it into a song, and did not try to hide what they were doing, any more than they have tried to hide their musical influences.  There is a reason that when bands do what Maiden did, you often see legal action, but when bands do what DT did, you don't. 

Second, what DT did is not even in the realm of dishonesty.  Dishonesty, by definition, entails an intent to deceive.  There is no such intent here (unless you know something the rest of us don't).  Yeah, the degree to which it bothers you is subjective.  Whether or not it is dishonest isn't.  There is no dishonesty involved.

DoctorAction

Oh, yeah. I agree completely that they're in a different league. What Maiden did was terrible and did genuinely upset me.

I was only slightly bothered by ITPOE and Priest. But it's been copied so closely that it's basically a metal song version of the comic. And should have been acknowledged in the booklet notes just like Maiden (ironically) did with TROTAM and Revelations.

Yes, JP talked about Priest in interviews after the album came out, but it was disappointing as I was already enjoying the song, thinking it was cool, and thinking the band came up with it on their own - because that's how it was presented in the booklet. There was no acknowledgement that it was paraphrasing the text of a comic and to leave that out is misleading. Deliberate omission is also dishonest, imo. In this case, it's not huge like Maiden, but it's there.

Hey, I know it's a strong word, and I'm not comfortable with it either. I love and respect the band, but just a line in the lyric book would have been cooler.


MirrorMask

It depends case for case I guess, but I assume that most lyricists who pay homage, assume that someone, somewhere, knows the subject, and will realize the connection.

Bruce Dickinson has a song called A Tyranny of Souls whose first stanza is *entirely* and *precisely* the first lines of MacBeth, it's not indicated anywhere in the booklet. I know, "everyone" know Shakespeare while an obscure japanese manga is harder to identify, thus with more people that could assume the lyrics are entirely original, but I don't think copying words from literature or other media in songs is that uncommon.

DoctorAction

I think using and referencing ancient religious texts and literary canon is very different. Those sets of words have become widely understood standards, akin to common expressions or phrases.

Trav86

I like 'You Not Me' and wish they would play it live.

MirrorMask

Quote from: Trav86 on October 05, 2019, 07:16:30 PM
I like 'You Not Me' and wish they would play it live.

Ditto. I've been lucky to have seen them many times in 20 years, I've heard basically everything I wanted to hear for them, for a change and for the novelty of it I wouldn't mind at all to hear it live. It's not even 5 minutes if I remember correctly, it's not that a bigass epic has to be sacrificed to play that song.

And for what it is, it's actually cool, nothing mindblowing but it's a nice rocking tune. Portnoy deemed it a "failed experiment", but to me the experiment of having someone external making a song more concise and catchy succeded. Again, it's not the best "easy prog" song ever written, but it does its job.

Evai

It just sounded odd live before, because they had Portnoy sing lead and Labrie sing harmony in the choruses. They should give it another go :)

KevShmev

Eh, they have way too many songs that are overdue to get played again to waste five minutes playing what most agree is one of their worst songs (if not THE worst).  That chorus is just so...not good. 

DTA

Quote from: Trav86 on October 05, 2019, 07:16:30 PM
I like 'You Not Me' and wish they would play it live.

Yep, I'd take this song over a lot of other DT songs imo. Gets a bad rap from fans all because MP doesn't like it.