Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 792833 times)

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9695 on: September 30, 2019, 11:39:01 AM »
Controversial opinion: Octavarium is too long, especially in the instrumental section between Full Circle and Intervals (& to a lesser extent the Medicate key solo and Razor's Edge guitar solo). It bothers me that multiple times, the instrumental builds up as if it's going to transition, but then it just kinda resets back to where it was. It feels so redundant & sometimes even ruins my immersion completely.
Hmmm.  The only part I feel is too long is the intro - ESPECIALLY on the live versions.  *shrugs*
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9696 on: September 30, 2019, 11:57:13 AM »
Controversial opinion: Octavarium is too long, especially in the instrumental section between Full Circle and Intervals (& to a lesser extent the Medicate key solo and Razor's Edge guitar solo). It bothers me that multiple times, the instrumental builds up as if it's going to transition, but then it just kinda resets back to where it was. It feels so redundant & sometimes even ruins my immersion completely.
Hmmm.  The only part I feel is too long is the intro - ESPECIALLY on the live versions.  *shrugs*

Amen!  The continuum section of the intro is an absolute throwaway.  The steel guitar section is better, solely because it introduces the main theme of the song, but it's nothing to write home about.  For me, the song doesn't really start until the synth solo at the end of Medicate, and everything from there to the end is perfect.
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9697 on: September 30, 2019, 12:23:11 PM »
For me, the song doesn't really start until the synth solo at the end of Medicate, and everything from there to the end is perfect.

I don't disagree...

The first half is really cool, but I have to be in the right mood for it.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline geeeemo

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9698 on: September 30, 2019, 01:35:13 PM »
Hmm, I love to watch the Score version - the best keyboard solo (the intro) I have watched.  Amazing.

Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9699 on: September 30, 2019, 05:35:21 PM »
I actually don't mind the ambient intro. It sets the atmosphere really well.

I'd argue that the first half the song is way better actually. It's way more emotional & less shred-focussed.

In my opinion, Full Circle/Intervals exists primarily as the tension to Razor's Edge's release, so it makes no sense to me why people would want to skip almost everything before that.
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Offline nikatapi

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9700 on: October 01, 2019, 12:20:46 AM »
Controversial opinion: Octavarium is too long, especially in the instrumental section between Full Circle and Intervals (& to a lesser extent the Medicate key solo and Razor's Edge guitar solo). It bothers me that multiple times, the instrumental builds up as if it's going to transition, but then it just kinda resets back to where it was. It feels so redundant & sometimes even ruins my immersion completely.

Controversial opinion: I think Octavarium is DT's best song ever.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9701 on: October 01, 2019, 07:54:45 AM »
Controversial opinion: Octavarium is too long, especially in the instrumental section between Full Circle and Intervals (& to a lesser extent the Medicate key solo and Razor's Edge guitar solo). It bothers me that multiple times, the instrumental builds up as if it's going to transition, but then it just kinda resets back to where it was. It feels so redundant & sometimes even ruins my immersion completely.

Controversial opinion: I think Octavarium is DT's best song ever.

It's right up there for me as well.  Definitely top 3.  Every single section and structural element relates to the overall theme so cleverly and on so many different levels.  Just a brilliant song all around.
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Offline lovethedrake

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9702 on: October 01, 2019, 08:02:01 AM »
I like Octavarium overall but its the first of the flawed classic DT songs to me.  The vocal melodies just don't stand up to their previous work, the styx like keyboard solo is bizarrely long, and its one of their most derivative songs.

With all that said, I still enjoy it and play it often but I would never put it in my top 10 or even top 15 DT songs.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9703 on: October 01, 2019, 08:07:55 AM »
I've never thought of equating "too perfect" with being a flaw.  But you may be onto something.  If a song is so perfect that you just don't feel worthy to listen to it, is that a flaw?  :justjen
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Offline lovethedrake

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9704 on: October 01, 2019, 08:09:16 AM »
Controversial opinion:  The piano melody in Out of Reach is far more haunting and beautiful than ANYTHING ever composed by Kevin Moore.

I don't know if "haunting" is the word I would use but I think it's gorgeous.   I am surprised nobody mentions the Petrucci solo during the intro of Out of Reach.  His guitar tone is just amazing and I think its the most "scenes from a memory" thing on any album since SFAM.    When the piano melody comes back in right as the solo is ending I think it's one of DT's finest moments in years.   Actually, I love At Wit's End so much that it's technically one of their finest moments since the previous song haha.

At Wit's End to me is the best DT song since SDOIT in my opinion.   That's the potentially controversial opinon on this long thread. 

Offline Max Kuehnau

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9705 on: October 01, 2019, 08:10:18 AM »
I've never thought of equating "too perfect" with being a flaw.  But you may be onto something.  If a song is so perfect that you just don't feel worthy to listen to it, is that a flaw?  :justjen interesting observation
there is no such thing as too perfect (IMHO anyway)
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9706 on: October 01, 2019, 08:17:36 AM »
Controversial opinion:  The piano melody in Out of Reach is far more haunting and beautiful than ANYTHING ever composed by Kevin Moore.

I don't know if "haunting" is the word I would use but I think it's gorgeous.   I am surprised nobody mentions the Petrucci solo during the intro of Out of Reach.  His guitar tone is just amazing and I think its the most "scenes from a memory" thing on any album since SFAM.    When the piano melody comes back in right as the solo is ending I think it's one of DT's finest moments in years.   Actually, I love At Wit's End so much that it's technically one of their finest moments since the previous song haha.

At Wit's End to me is the best DT song since SDOIT in my opinion.   That's the potentially controversial opinon on this long thread. 

Those are my top 2 songs on the album right now.  It's interesting how my opinion has changed.  I still love the album from start to finish, and I now really like the songs that didn't first grab me.  But my top 3 has changed.  Initially, I think my top 3 were At Wit's End, Paralyzed, and Room 137.  At Wit's End has stayed, but the other 2 songs in my top 3 would now be Out of Reach (a DT ballad in the top 3???) and S2N. 
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Offline Max Kuehnau

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9707 on: October 01, 2019, 08:20:55 AM »
Controversial opinion:  The piano melody in Out of Reach is far more haunting and beautiful than ANYTHING ever composed by Kevin Moore.

I don't know if "haunting" is the word I would use but I think it's gorgeous.   I am surprised nobody mentions the Petrucci solo during the intro of Out of Reach.  His guitar tone is just amazing and I think its the most "scenes from a memory" thing on any album since SFAM.    When the piano melody comes back in right as the solo is ending I think it's one of DT's finest moments in years.   Actually, I love At Wit's End so much that it's technically one of their finest moments since the previous song haha.

At Wit's End to me is the best DT song since SDOIT in my opinion.   That's the potentially controversial opinon on this long thread. 

Those are my top 2 songs on the album right now.  It's interesting how my opinion has changed.  I still love the album from start to finish, and I now really like the songs that didn't first grab me.  But my top 3 has changed.  Initially, I think my top 3 were At Wit's End, Paralyzed, and Room 137.  At Wit's End has stayed, but the other 2 songs in my top 3 would now be Out of Reach (a DT ballad in the top 3???) and S2N.
I'm not too surprised about OOR being in your top tier, because it's my favourite on the album as well :D (that one and PBD, I skip all the others)
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9708 on: October 01, 2019, 10:16:00 AM »
I actually don't mind the ambient intro. It sets the atmosphere really well.

I'd argue that the first half the song is way better actually. It's way more emotional & less shred-focussed.

In my opinion, Full Circle/Intervals exists primarily as the tension to Razor's Edge's release, so it makes no sense to me why people would want to skip almost everything before that.

"Better" is entirely subjective.  I get that some folks like the intro, and that's just great.  I think it's boring as heck.  I think Someone Like Him and Medicate are good but not great.  I think Full Circle is epic.  I love the lyrical playfulness.  I love how the first part of it's in 7 and the second is in 5.  The instrumental section falls on the good side of the "just enough v. too much shred" continuum.  Intervals is cool, and Razor's Edge is a great way to end it.  If the song had only the steel guitar section of the intro and only one of Someone Like Him and Medicate, it would, IMO make for a better song, and that's saying something given that it's easily a top 10, if not top 5, DT song.
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9709 on: October 01, 2019, 10:37:35 AM »
It's not that any moment, any given occasion, I'm up for listening the 5 minutes intro of Octavarium, but it serves its purpouse in setting the tone. With the understandable exception of the little slowling down of Intervals, the song is basically a crescendo of intensity from start to finish. The almost nothingness of the intro. The very slow part of Someone Like Him. The still slow, but more upbeat Medicate Me. The "fast" part that leads into the crazy Full Circle (don't care what anyone says about the lyrics, all the tie ins are brilliant and awesome). The ever so slightly calm of Intervals that explodes into the Trapped inside this Octavarium section, the pinnacle of the tension built up since the beginning.... and then the explosion into the dramatic, bombastic and amazing finale of Razor's Edge whose ending is the definition of an eargasm.

As I said it's not that every time I'm up for the intro, and I do too think that the solo sections before and after Full Circle are slightly a bit on the wanky side, but all in all I consider Octavarium a damn masterpiece from start to finish  :metal :hefdaddy
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9710 on: October 01, 2019, 10:44:51 AM »
8V's beginning freaking RULES
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9711 on: October 01, 2019, 11:04:17 AM »
Still a top 5 DT song imo.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9712 on: October 01, 2019, 11:09:43 AM »
Controversial opinion: I think Octavarium is DT's best song ever.
Is that controversial?
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Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9713 on: October 01, 2019, 11:20:56 AM »
I've got no problems with the intro. Sets the tone and atmosphere of the track perfectly and doesn't overstay its welcome either IMO. Moving from it to the next section and then so on makes 8V progress and evolve very organically which I really love too.

Offline lovethedrake

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9714 on: October 01, 2019, 11:39:17 AM »
I have no issue with the intro in terms of the purpose it serves for the song, however, I personally just think the vocal melodies sound a bit contrived and weak.     I don't skip through them though, I still enjoy the song as a whole but if I am comparing it to what I consider "classic" DT songs (Fatal Tragedy, Learning to Live, Metropolis, SDOIT, Change of Seasons etc) I just don't think it lives up to the billing.   A matter of taste for me really but it's the first attempt at an epic from them that felt a bit contrived and tired.   Still a good DT song and compared to most bands a masterpiece.


Offline Northern Lion

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9715 on: October 01, 2019, 04:01:42 PM »
8V is the DT epic I listen to the least.  However, when I'm in the right mood and feeling particularly contemplative, I'll give it a go and will enjoy every minute of it.  Those times are just rare for me.  But I have to say that the scream James does at the end never ceases to give me the chills.

My controversial opinion is 3 fold.  1. In the Presence of Enemies is actually DT's best song, 2. it's lyrics are JP's best story, and 3. cutting it in half on the album was DT's biggest musical mistake and the only way to properly listen to this masterpiece is by gluing it together using Audacity.


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Offline bosk1

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9716 on: October 01, 2019, 04:12:54 PM »
As Luke Skywalker said:  "Every word of what you just said is wrong."  With all due respect, of course.  :biggrin:
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Offline Northern Lion

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9717 on: October 01, 2019, 04:27:44 PM »
As Luke Skywalker said:  "Every word of what you just said is wrong."  With all due respect, of course.  :biggrin:

Well, as the thread states, it's just my opinion.  And your's is also an opinion.  And because they are both subjective, they both have equal merit.  :tup
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9718 on: October 01, 2019, 04:32:29 PM »
Well, maybe.  But I quoted Luke Skywalker, so...

But here's my more detailed response to your points:

1.  I wouldn't put it anywhere near the top of DT's catalog.  But that said, it's still a great song. 
2.  The lyrics are good.  But that's about it.  And they aren't really JP's.  At least, they aren't a "JP original."  He took the works of the manga that the story came from, and just retooled them so they worked for the song. 
3.  SC and BCSL are the only DT albums that I don't generally listen to in full and have "re-cut" them.  As part of my abbreviated SC, I start it off with ITPOE as a whole song rather than in two parts bookending the album.  So I do agree that the best listening experience is the entire thing as one piece.  But that said, I would hardly call splitting it a "mistake."  I fully get why that creative choice was made, and I think it works just fine in context of the album--especially on the heels of the previous three albums that ended with a mega-epic (Six Degrees), an epic (TOT), and a mega-epic (Octavarium).  They just really felt like they needed to do something other than having a 20+ minute song be the closer.  At the time, it felt right.  And it made for an interesting and different listening experience.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 04:39:29 PM by bosk1 »
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Offline goo-goo

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9719 on: October 01, 2019, 04:36:40 PM »
I personally think Octavarium is overrated. I've never liked it.  The intro is too long, the song sounds "cut and pasted", with no good transitions in between the songs. I do not enjoy the lyrics since they are a bit cheesy and forced (especially the Sailing on the Seven Seas section). The only section I enjoy is the Medicate Me part (both musically and lyrically).

Offline Evai

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9720 on: October 01, 2019, 05:04:40 PM »
Oh yeah, that continuum/slide intro seems to go on forever, and if you're listening to the album at lower volumes, it's barely there
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Offline TAC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9721 on: October 01, 2019, 06:13:25 PM »
I love ITPOE, especially the live version.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9722 on: October 01, 2019, 06:24:31 PM »
I love ITPOE, especially the live version.

I'm glad I got to see part. 1 live. It was among the best part of the show for me. It'd be top only if they included part.2.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9723 on: October 01, 2019, 06:30:56 PM »
I love ITPOE, especially the live version.

I'm glad I got to see part. 1 live. It was among the best part of the show for me. It'd be top only if they included part.2.

It was great that Pt1 was included on this tour.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Northern Lion

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9724 on: October 02, 2019, 08:00:04 AM »
Well, maybe.  But I quoted Luke Skywalker, so...

But here's my more detailed response to your points:

1.  I wouldn't put it anywhere near the top of DT's catalog.  But that said, it's still a great song. 
2.  The lyrics are good.  But that's about it.  And they aren't really JP's.  At least, they aren't a "JP original."  He took the works of the manga that the story came from, and just retooled them so they worked for the song. 
3.  SC and BCSL are the only DT albums that I don't generally listen to in full and have "re-cut" them.  As part of my abbreviated SC, I start it off with ITPOE as a whole song rather than in two parts bookending the album.  So I do agree that the best listening experience is the entire thing as one piece.  But that said, I would hardly call splitting it a "mistake."  I fully get why that creative choice was made, and I think it works just fine in context of the album--especially on the heels of the previous three albums that ended with a mega-epic (Six Degrees), an epic (TOT), and a mega-epic (Octavarium).  They just really felt like they needed to do something other than having a 20+ minute song be the closer.  At the time, it felt right.  And it made for an interesting and different listening experience.

1. I know there are plenty of fans on here that feel that same way, and that's cool.  Which is why I labeled it as a controversial opinon.
2. I know JP got it from a manga, but that is perhaps why I think the lyrics/story are so good.  I have noticed that other stories JP has told that I like a lot also came from outside material. But I also feel the same way with other bands as well such as Metallica and Iron Maiden.  It's definately a "me" thing.
3. I agree that SC and BCSL are somewhat inconsistant albums, and I do see why the band decided to split up the song, I just don't think they should have done it, or atleast released an uncut version of the song with the album as a download or something.
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Offline goo-goo

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9725 on: October 02, 2019, 08:15:52 AM »
I love ITPOE, especially the live version.

I'm glad I got to see part. 1 live. It was among the best part of the show for me. It'd be top only if they included part.2.

It was great that Pt1 was included on this tour.

It really translated well in a live setting. The intro is phenomenal.

Offline lovethedrake

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9726 on: October 02, 2019, 08:26:58 AM »
I actually don't love either part of  ITPOE, however, a big reason for that is that I hate the production on SC. 

I thought ITPOE was absolutely killer live though and I am super excited to have seen it because I don't think I attended the SC tour.

It was actually one of the highlights of the first set to me.  Goes to show how important production is for a listening experience.


Offline Northern Lion

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9727 on: October 02, 2019, 11:15:58 AM »
I actually don't love either part of  ITPOE, however, a big reason for that is that I hate the production on SC. 

I thought ITPOE was absolutely killer live though and I am super excited to have seen it because I don't think I attended the SC tour.

It was actually one of the highlights of the first set to me.  Goes to show how important production is for a listening experience.

I think that is very true.  The production can make or break a song/album for some people.

I haven't ever seen ItPoE live, but I would sure love to.  Maybe one day.  From what you and some of the others have said, it sounds like I'm really missing out.
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Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9728 on: October 02, 2019, 03:07:41 PM »
As Luke Skywalker said:  "Every word of what you just said is wrong."  With all due respect, of course.  :biggrin:

Just curious.  Is that a quote from one of the movies?  I don't recall Luke ever saying those words.
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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #9729 on: October 02, 2019, 03:12:06 PM »
As Luke Skywalker said:  "Every word of what you just said is wrong."  With all due respect, of course.  :biggrin:

Just curious.  Is that a quote from one of the movies?  I don't recall Luke ever saying those words.

The Last Jedi.