Your Controversial Opinions on DT

Started by Lucidity, December 17, 2012, 07:28:25 PM

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pg1067

Quote from: nikatapi on July 03, 2019, 11:18:24 PM
Here's a controversial opinion:

Ever since JP took the wheel in DT, they've become a much more "sterile" band. No surprises, almost static setlists, and while they still do extraordinary performances, it's just professional but without the uniqueness that existed before and made the band so special.

While i appreciate DT's effort for more impressive shows, with lights and projections, i still see them us unnecessary, especially when used as a reason for the band not rotating setlists anymore.

Counter-opinion:  From my perspective, the rotating set lists were annoying at worst and meaningless at best.  They usually resulted in me missing out on a song that I wanted to hear but which was played at the shows before and/or after the show I attended.

Cool Chris

Quote from: pg1067 on July 04, 2019, 11:23:38 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on July 03, 2019, 11:18:24 PM
Here's a controversial opinion:

Ever since JP took the wheel in DT, they've become a much more "sterile" band. No surprises, almost static setlists, and while they still do extraordinary performances, it's just professional but without the uniqueness that existed before and made the band so special.

While i appreciate DT's effort for more impressive shows, with lights and projections, i still see them us unnecessary, especially when used as a reason for the band not rotating setlists anymore.

Counter-opinion:  From my perspective, the rotating set lists were annoying at worst and meaningless at best.  They usually resulted in me missing out on a song that I wanted to hear but which was played at the shows before and/or after the show I attended.

I was going to jump in on this. Wouldn't say they are annoying, but definitely overhyped. I get why people who have lots of concert cash to blow on the same band who live in an area where they will hit multiple stops nearby would appreciate them. But I can't believe that is a large percentage of fans. I only ever care what a band plays when I go see them, not what they play (or don't play) the rest of the tour.

Setlist Scotty

Quote from: Cool Chris on July 04, 2019, 11:56:54 AM
Quote from: pg1067 on July 04, 2019, 11:23:38 AM
Quote from: nikatapi on July 03, 2019, 11:18:24 PM
Here's a controversial opinion:

Ever since JP took the wheel in DT, they've become a much more "sterile" band. No surprises, almost static setlists, and while they still do extraordinary performances, it's just professional but without the uniqueness that existed before and made the band so special.

While i appreciate DT's effort for more impressive shows, with lights and projections, i still see them us unnecessary, especially when used as a reason for the band not rotating setlists anymore.
Counter-opinion:  From my perspective, the rotating set lists were annoying at worst and meaningless at best.  They usually resulted in me missing out on a song that I wanted to hear but which was played at the shows before and/or after the show I attended.
I was going to jump in on this. Wouldn't say they are annoying, but definitely overhyped. I get why people who have lots of concert cash to blow on the same band who live in an area where they will hit multiple stops nearby would appreciate them. But I can't believe that is a large percentage of fans. I only ever care what a band plays when I go see them, not what they play (or don't play) the rest of the tour.
There may not be a "large" percentage of fans, but I know that I'm far from the only one who would go to multiple shows on each tour, in large part to be able to enjoy the variety of songs that was rotated in and out of the setlist - nevermind that you didn't always know what the next song they were gonna play was, and even if the setlists were similar, the fact that it felt like anything could happen (which is non-existent now). And of course, I was always interested in what was played at the other shows that I didn't see as well - much the same way some diehard sports people are interested in various statistics of various teams or players, even if they don't have season tickets. As a result of the now static setlists, I and several others I know now just go to see the band once per tour. Will that break the bank for the band? No. But it's one of several things that made DT "especially special" while MP was in the band. DT may still be my favorite band, but they no longer stand out the way they used to.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2015, 07:37:14 PMAs a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.
Quote from: TAC on July 10, 2024, 08:26:41 AMPOW is awesome! :P

Herrick

I haven't been to many concerts but I can respect a band (or just Portnoy?) who thinks their discography is strong enough to play any song live.
DISPLAY thy breasts, my Julia!

MirrorMask

Quote from: Herrick on July 04, 2019, 08:50:17 PM
I haven't been to many concerts but I can respect a band (or just Portnoy?) who thinks their discography is strong enough to play any song live.

Well, save 2-3 songs here and there, it actually is.

Cool Chris

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 04, 2019, 05:15:36 PM
And of course, I was always interested in what was played at the other shows that I didn't see as well...

Huh, that never would have occurred to me to even consider. However, appreciate that you do.

Ben_Jamin

For me, being as I can't go to many DT shows in one tour as it would require me to travel a lot, I'll take what I can get. I want to see many songs from as many albums as possible, which is why when I finally got to go to DT headlining shows it's when they went full on Album tours. First, was obvious as I enjoy The Astonishing and so glad I went to two shows. 2nd was the I&W&B tour, glad I also went to two shows and so happy our local headlining show included DLPM and TLF. Now D/T has SFAM, good but damn am I tired of Full Album tours.

I'll gladly take another A/B/C setlist with whatever they choose from among their many albums. I feel though their 2nd U.S Leg will take place when I can't attend it and it'll be a varied set.

The only reason DT did those citied varied sets is because MP was the only OCD one that kept every Setlist of every show. He had probably a big folder he pulled out when creating sets with the group, and I bet they were spontaneous as well. No one in the band currently is that OCD to do what he did.

DTA

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on July 05, 2019, 11:01:01 AM

The only reason DT did those citied varied sets is because MP was the only OCD one that kept every Setlist of every show. He had probably a big folder he pulled out when creating sets with the group, and I bet they were spontaneous as well. No one in the band currently is that OCD to do what he did.

He definitely did have some kind of archive as to what was played. I've argued this a lot on this site but DT has certainly done a tremendous job with changing their set up from tour to tour without MP. They've also given us three unplayed songs from the MP-era including two of the biggest rarities in Space Dye Vest and Don't Look Past Me that even MP overlooked. There's no reason why they should not play the same set night after night when a substantial portion of shoes are only attended in one city. It's not the bands fault if their fans obsessively check setlist.fm for different songs (which is something I do for every band I like but I realize I'm the one with the issue not the band).


Setlist Scotty

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on July 05, 2019, 11:01:01 AM
The only reason DT did those citied varied sets is because MP was the only OCD one that kept every Setlist of every show. He had probably a big folder he pulled out when creating sets with the group, and I bet they were spontaneous as well.
Not in the slightest, unless it was something they spontaneously broke into during the show, like some of the teasers tacked on at the end of some songs. Otherwise, MP had those setlists planned out probably at least a week in advance if not more. This was done at least in part so that everyone who needed to could be prepared - in particular JR with his sound patches and the video/lighting guys.


Quote from: Ben_Jamin on July 05, 2019, 11:01:01 AM
No one in the band currently is that OCD to do what he did.
OCD has nothing to do with it.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2015, 07:37:14 PMAs a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.
Quote from: TAC on July 10, 2024, 08:26:41 AMPOW is awesome! :P

gzarruk

To add somthing else to this discussion, just wanted to say I've seen a lot of "no MP, no rotating setlists" through the years and quite a few people complain about this (o just mention it as something they dislike), but I don't see anyone complaining about the other dozen bands MP plays/has played with the last 10-ish years that don't have rotating setlists. Literally no other MP band has had rotating setlists the way he did it with DT and yet no one seems to think this is a big deal. Then, why it has to be with DT? Just my two cents.

ReaperKK

There is also a downside to rotating setlists. If I can only go to one show and I see the night before got a better (to me) setlist I'm going to be bummed.

Sebastián Pratesi

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 05, 2019, 12:53:18 PM
Otherwise, MP had those setlists planned out probably at least a week in advance if not more.
Scott, may I ask: do you know how Mike kept track of everything?

For example: did he use MS Excel/MS Access files? Did he store printed set-lists in a box or whatever?

Maybe he contacted you from time to time asking for opinions/information?

Setlist Scotty

Quote from: gzarruk on July 05, 2019, 04:45:02 PM
To add somthing else to this discussion, just wanted to say I've seen a lot of "no MP, no rotating setlists" through the years and quite a few people complain about this (o just mention it as something they dislike), but I don't see anyone complaining about the other dozen bands MP plays/has played with the last 10-ish years that don't have rotating setlists. Literally no other MP band has had rotating setlists the way he did it with DT and yet no one seems to think this is a big deal. Then, why it has to be with DT? Just my two cents.
I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case, there's 2 reasons:
1) none of his other bands appeal to me in the same way that DT does so that I want to catch multiple shows and keep track of every setlist.
2) it is a well known fact that he isn't calling the shots in any of these other bands like he did in DT, with SoA being the exception. To be honest, I was a bit surprised I didn't see rotating setlists for SoA's shows in 2018, but I chalk that up to it being their first tour. If this continues to be the case on subsequent tours, it will definitely be a disappointment.


Quote from: Sebastián Pratesi on July 05, 2019, 08:52:06 PM
Scott, may I ask: do you know how Mike kept track of everything?

For example: did he use MS Excel/MS Access files? Did he store printed set-lists in a box or whatever?

Maybe he contacted you from time to time asking for opinions/information?
For Touring Into Infinity, I don't know, altho I doubt it was digital - it was probably just photocopies of the setlists and/or notes he kept in a diary. For that tour, he gave me a bunch of photocopies in one format or the other. For later tours (really beginning with World Tourbulence, since Metropolis 2000 was pretty static), I'm pretty sure he simply referenced the tourography, since it was up and running by that time.

But no, he never asked for my opinion on setlists - he had a good handle on putting together setlists without needing my help!  :lol
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2015, 07:37:14 PMAs a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.
Quote from: TAC on July 10, 2024, 08:26:41 AMPOW is awesome! :P

bosk1

I remember him saying he kept a "spreadsheet."  But I don't know whether he meant a literal spreadsheet, ala Excel, or if he was just using that term for some other system he had.

TAC

What MP had said was that he wanted to make sure they didn't play the same songs every time time through a town., so a fan would get different songs each time they saw them.

To JP's credit, he has kept this going. Each tour has had a radically different setlist.
Quote from: wkiml on June 08, 2012, 09:06:35 AMwould have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on April 22, 2023, 05:54:45 PMTAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

DTA

Quote from: TAC on July 06, 2019, 04:27:16 AM


To JP's credit, he has kept this going. Each tour has had a radically different setlist.

Seriously. Every tour since ADToE has had a cool unique setlist with rarities and a wide array of songs. The only real missteps have been removing the I&W b-sides from that album tour's setlist and replacing them with TSCO and Pull Me Under being the encore for the D/T tour.

Setlist Scotty

Quote from: TAC on July 06, 2019, 04:27:16 AM
To JP's credit, he has kept this going. Each tour has had a radically different setlist.
...except when you go to another city just an hour or two away, you still get the same setlist.  :P
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2015, 07:37:14 PMAs a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.
Quote from: TAC on July 10, 2024, 08:26:41 AMPOW is awesome! :P

Ben_Jamin

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 06, 2019, 10:23:17 AM
Quote from: TAC on July 06, 2019, 04:27:16 AM
To JP's credit, he has kept this going. Each tour has had a radically different setlist.
...except when you go to another city just an hour or two away, you still get the same setlist.  :P

You east coast peeps are spoiled with that honestly. Getting to travel just an hours worth away. While we on the west have to go twice that just for the nearest city

Sebastián Pratesi

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 05, 2019, 09:35:49 PM
For Touring Into Infinity, I don't know, altho I doubt it was digital - it was probably just photocopies of the setlists and/or notes he kept in a diary. For that tour, he gave me a bunch of photocopies in one format or the other. For later tours (really beginning with World Tourbulence, since Metropolis 2000 was pretty static), I'm pretty sure he simply referenced the tourography, since it was up and running by that time.

But no, he never asked for my opinion on setlists - he had a good handle on putting together setlists without needing my help!  :lol
Quote from: bosk1 on July 05, 2019, 11:49:51 PM
I remember him saying he kept a "spreadsheet."  But I don't know whether he meant a literal spreadsheet, ala Excel, or if he was just using that term for some other system he had.

Thanks!

Setlist Scotty

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on July 06, 2019, 01:48:06 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on July 06, 2019, 10:23:17 AM
Quote from: TAC on July 06, 2019, 04:27:16 AM
To JP's credit, he has kept this going. Each tour has had a radically different setlist.
...except when you go to another city just an hour or two away, you still get the same setlist.  :P
You east coast peeps are spoiled with that honestly. Getting to travel just an hours worth away. While we on the west have to go twice that just for the nearest city
Not sure if you're directing that at me, but for the record, I lived on the west coast, but happily went to shows in San Diego, Orange County, LA and even Phoenix. I've also flown out for shows on the east coast and caught both Milwaukee and Chicago shows, too. So no, it ain't just "east coast peeps".
Quote from: BlobVanDam on November 13, 2015, 07:37:14 PMAs a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.
Quote from: TAC on July 10, 2024, 08:26:41 AMPOW is awesome! :P

Herrick

Quote from: DTA on July 06, 2019, 04:51:57 AM
Quote from: TAC on July 06, 2019, 04:27:16 AM


To JP's credit, he has kept this going. Each tour has had a radically different setlist.

Seriously. Every tour since ADToE has had a cool unique setlist with rarities and a wide array of songs. The only real missteps have been removing the I&W b-sides from that album tour's setlist and replacing them with TSCO and Pull Me Under being the encore for the D/T tour.


Yeah I was disappointed with Pull Me Under as the encore. It should've been Metropolis Part I!!!
DISPLAY thy breasts, my Julia!

pg1067

Quote from: DTA on July 06, 2019, 04:51:57 AM
Seriously. Every tour since ADToE has had a cool unique setlist with rarities and a wide array of songs. The only real missteps have been removing the I&W b-sides from that album tour's setlist and replacing them with TSCO and Pull Me Under being the encore for the D/T tour.

That's only a "misstep" if you think those b-sides are worth hearing.  DLPM was the low point of the I&W&B set list, and TLF wasn't far behind (especially since I'd seen TLF live in the past).  As much as I don't really feel the need ever to see TSCO live, it would have been a far better choice IMO.

Max Kuehnau

This Dying Soul may make sense to be back in the live set at some point. I'd like to hear how MM would approach it anyway.

TAC

Quote from: Max Kuehnau on July 09, 2019, 04:53:29 AM
This Dying Soul may make sense to be back in the live set at some point. I'd like to hear how MM would approach it anyway.

Hell f'n yes!! :metal
Quote from: wkiml on June 08, 2012, 09:06:35 AMwould have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on April 22, 2023, 05:54:45 PMTAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

goo-goo

I absolutely hate the instrumental wankery section on TDS. Makes me cringe.

Cool Chris

Not sure that is in any way controversial. Nor is my thinking that some of the vocal parts they make James sing are terrible and insulting to his talents.

Dublagent66

Quote from: goo-goo on July 10, 2019, 08:51:33 AM
I absolutely hate the instrumental wankery section on TDS. Makes me cringe.

I don't hate it, but it is over the top.  Still love that song though.


Quote from: Cool Chris on July 10, 2019, 11:02:04 AM
Not sure that is in any way controversial. Nor is my thinking that some of the vocal parts they make James sing are terrible and insulting to his talents.

Which ones are those?

cramx3

I was surprised how much I enjoyed TDS when MP's TSF played it, but honestly, never really loved it (I do love the intro though) and have no desire to see DT play it.  I'm not sure it would be as good honestly either played to a click vs. that haken/mp more up tempo version

goo-goo

Quote from: Cool Chris on July 10, 2019, 11:02:04 AM
Not sure that is in any way controversial. Nor is my thinking that some of the vocal parts they make James sing are terrible and insulting to his talents.

Check out Frameshift's Unweaving the Rainbow. Stellar performance by James. Henning Pauly made sure James' voice shined in this album.

Cool Chris

Quote from: Dublagent66 on July 10, 2019, 02:10:38 PM
Quote from: Cool Chris on July 10, 2019, 11:02:04 AM
Not sure that is in any way controversial. Nor is my thinking that some of the vocal parts they make James sing are terrible and insulting to his talents.

Which ones are those?

Starting here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wKx_SBjHDY&feature=youtu.be&t=236

zappafrank2112

Now that the album has been out for a while, I maintain this controversial opinion:

Distance Over Time is nowhere near as amazing and blowaway as it's been made out to be.  For me, it's not even in the top 50% of their output, and in fact might be in the bottom 25% (hanging out with The Astonishing and Octavarium).

Volante99

Quote from: zappafrank2112 on July 10, 2019, 08:57:21 PM
Now that the album has been out for a while, I maintain this controversial opinion:

Distance Over Time is nowhere near as amazing and blowaway as it's been made out to be.  For me, it's not even in the top 50% of their output, and in fact might be in the bottom 25% (hanging out with The Astonishing and Octavarium).

Agreed; Barstool Warrior and At Wit's End are the only songs I find myself going back to these days. It think people give it a lot of leeway because there really aren't any TERRIBLE songs (that and it's not called the Astonishing) but, overall it's seriously lacking. For the Mangini era, it's a distant second behind ADToE which outclasses it in every conceivable way.

Octavarium is a great album, though. It has a couple clunkers but Root of All Evil, Sacrificed Sons, Panic Attack, These Walls and, of course, the title track are worth the price of admission.

zappafrank2112

Quote from: Volante99 on July 10, 2019, 10:13:42 PM
Octavarium is a great album, though. It has a couple clunkers but Root of All Evil, Sacrificed Sons, Panic Attack, These Walls and, of course, the title track are worth the price of admission.

My biggest issue with the album is that to my ears, it just sounds flat and lacks any snap and sharp edges, especially compared with SC which followed.  So even though there's good music there, I just don't feel it so much on a visceral level.

Max Kuehnau

Quote from: Volante99 on July 10, 2019, 10:13:42 PM
Quote from: zappafrank2112 on July 10, 2019, 08:57:21 PM
Now that the album has been out for a while, I maintain this controversial opinion:

Distance Over Time is nowhere near as amazing and blowaway as it's been made out to be.  For me, it's not even in the top 50% of their output, and in fact might be in the bottom 25% (hanging out with The Astonishing and Octavarium).

Agreed; Barstool Warrior and At Wit's End are the only songs I find myself going back to these days. It think people give it a lot of leeway because there really aren't any TERRIBLE songs (that and it's not called the Astonishing) but, overall it's seriously lacking. For the Mangini era, it's a distant second behind ADToE which outclasses it in every conceivable way.

Octavarium is a great album, though. It has a couple clunkers but Root of All Evil, Sacrificed Sons, Panic Attack, These Walls and, of course, the title track are worth the price of admission.
similarly, I only go back to Out Of Reach and Pale Blue Dot. I usually skip everything else.

Evai

I've only listened to D/T once, the day it came out. Where's my The Astonishing live DVD/Bluray release, I'd have watched that a dozen times if it existed.  :smiley: