Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[KevShmev]

Again, you're missing the point. This is a huge classic from their classic era we're talking about. That stuff should've been better documented *at the time*. And it's not about specific home video formats, it's so it remains available to people in the future. Until 2006 there was no good way for a fan to see the Metropolis bass tapping section on video, one of the prime Myung moments in their discography, because Portnoy chose poor bootleg footage of the song over a professional recording. It's not just about the last 90 seconds.

And the Score version had the orchestra, which means we never got a full version of Metropolis played by just Dream Theater with Mike Portnoy on an officially released live concert video. That is crazy to think about.

[gzarruk]

Again, you're missing the point. This is a huge classic from their classic era we're talking about. That stuff should've been better documented *at the time*. And it's not about specific home video formats, it's so it remains available to people in the future. Until 2006 there was no good way for a fan to see the Metropolis bass tapping section on video, one of the prime Myung moments in their discography, because Portnoy chose poor bootleg footage of the song over a professional recording. It's not just about the last 90 seconds.

And the Score version had the orchestra, which means we never got a full version of Metropolis played by just Dream Theater with Mike Portnoy on an officially released live concert video. That is crazy to think about.

So, the first “proper” one was LALP? Mindblown.

[porcacultor]

I don't think it's really that controversial, but...

Moment of Betrayal sounds so much like Judas Priest to me (in a great way, not derivative at all!), it's not even funny. If some parts were "simplified", as it were, it'd be stage-ready for them!

[darkshade]

Is liking the new album but still wishing MP was the drummer, controversial?

[Architeuthis]

Is liking the new album but still wishing MP was the drummer, controversial?

I like MP where's he's at right now, he's killing it in The Neal Morse Band!  DT is doing just fine with MM.

[darkshade]

Is liking the new album but still wishing MP was the drummer, controversial?

I like MP where's he's at right now, he's killing it in The Neal Morse Band!  DT is doing just fine with MM.

NM and Transatlantic is the only thing he's been doing that interests me, which he did while in DT anyway.
I want more than 'fine'.

[Kyo]

And the Score version had the orchestra, which means we never got a full version of Metropolis played by just Dream Theater with Mike Portnoy on an officially released live concert video. That is crazy to think about.

Now consider that it's not just Mike - we could've had video of Metropolis (and Learning to Live, too!) with Kevin Moore on keys. It's almost certain they recorded the full evening that was used for Live in Tokyo and they even released an additional song from it (Another Day) on the Score DVD some 15 years later, but these two have stayed in the can all these years and are unlikely to surface now given DT's sad lack of interest in archival releases these days.

[Dedalus]

- James: TA >>> D/T
 - Jordan: TA >>> D/T
 - JM: TA > D/T
 - JP: TA= D/T
 - MM: TA < D/T (but still his performance in TA is VERY good)

I really disagree.

[erwinrafael]

JM is better in TA than D/T?

[IDontNotDoThings]

Is liking the new album but still wishing MP was the drummer, controversial?

The only controversial thing here is than comma.

[erciccio]

JM is better in TA than D/T?

Yes...and you were my guide to JM in the astonishing with the post attached... 

Let me get this out of the way. If you say that John Myung is inaudible in this record, buy better equipment. Myung is amazing in this record, specially doing the duty of the bass player to give the songs a solid foundation. My top 10 Astonishing bass moments:

10. Begin Again outro (3:15 onwards) - Myung plays a nice almost danceable groove that complements Mangini's equally groovy drums.

9. A Savior in the Square intro - Myung shines in so many slow moments in this record and this is one prime example. I love his choice of notes, especially his counterpoints when he goes to notes in higher octaves, to support Petrucci's beautiful solo.

8. The Gift of Music bridge (1:07 to 1:37) - this song has excellent bass playing throughout but Myung shines in this part, almost singing a counter-melody to James.

7. Our New World second guitar solo (2:22 to 3:03) - just like Mangini's, Myung's playing here is elegant, doing his part to support Pettruci's beautiful solo. I love love love the end part, when he mirrored Petrucci's line at just the right moment, I still have goosebumps when listening to it.

6. Ravenskill outro (4:55 onwards) - working in unison with Petrucci's guitar and Mangini's bass drum, Myung helped make the ending sound so epic.

5. Moment of Betrayal unison (3:50 to 4:07) and outro (5:25 onwards) - During the unison part, we had a bass shredding Myung sighting. The outro has Myung playing like a boss.

4. When Your Time Has Come - this is my surprise pick. It took me some listens to realize that it was Myung carrying the song up to the second chorus, because Petrucci was playing acoustic guitar up to that point. A good example of substance over form in bass playing in a slow song.

3. My Last Farewell instrumentals (1:31 to 1:45 and 2:36 to 3:20) - I am almost sure that this escaped the radar of many, but Myung was killer for the whole song. But his work in the instrumentals is really top notch once you realize that that "flowing" sound you are hearing is actually the bass guitar.

2. A New Beginning instrumental and outro (3:47 onwards) - the instrumental really just had the classic prog Myung, I really smiled when I first listened to it. But the kicker is the outro. That groove. Myung knows how to groove.

1. A Life Left Behind - predictable choice, especially because of the amazing intro. But what might escape your radar is his work when the vocals kick in, which is also amazing. Beautiful.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 03:31:45 AM by erwinrafael »
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[Max Kuehnau]

David Prater should have replaced MP with samples entirely on I/W and ACOS. More pleasing to these ears. (And TTT shouldn't have been on I/W at all. The song that ruined the album for me in addition to MP.)

[erwinrafael]

JM is better in TA than D/T?

Yes...and you were my guide to JM in the astonishing with the post attached... 

Yes, JM was amazing in TA as I posted, but I think his playing in D/T is better. Maybe I should do a top ten Myung D/T moments. :-P

[Volante99]

David Prater should have replaced MP with samples entirely on I/W and ACOS. More pleasing to these ears. (And TTT shouldn't have been on I/W at all. The song that ruined the album for me in addition to MP.)

Lol... I mean TTT is kind of a silly/dated song but you find it so offensive as to ruin their best album and turn you off to a drummer’s career? 

[Max Kuehnau]

Yes. I never was a Portnoy fan and never will be. He ruined all the records during his time in DT and he should have left earlier than he did. Not worth anything technically and musically.

[PetFish]

Yes. I never was a Portnoy fan and never will be. He ruined all the records during his time in DT and he should have left earlier than he did. Not worth anything technically and musically.

Jeez, man, tell us how you *really* feel.  I think you're playing a dangerous game blurring the line between controversial and bashing so watch out.

[RodrigoAltaf]

David Prater should have replaced MP with samples entirely on I/W and ACOS. More pleasing to these ears. (And TTT shouldn't have been on I/W at all. The song that ruined the album for me in addition to MP.)

Your post reminds me of two DT songs: Status Seeker and The Looking Glass. I think you know why.

[Herrick]

Again, you're missing the point. This is a huge classic from their classic era we're talking about. That stuff should've been better documented *at the time*. And it's not about specific home video formats, it's so it remains available to people in the future. Until 2006 there was no good way for a fan to see the Metropolis bass tapping section on video, one of the prime Myung moments in their discography, because Portnoy chose poor bootleg footage of the song over a professional recording. It's not just about the last 90 seconds.

And the Score version had the orchestra, which means we never got a full version of Metropolis played by just Dream Theater with Mike Portnoy on an officially released live concert video. That is crazy to think about.

I was gonna ask about Live Scenes from New York but I looked it up and the DVD doesn't have all the tracks. It's really a fucking shame that they couldn't put out a super DVD edition with all the tracks that were on the 3 CD live album.

[SeRoX]

Yes. I never was a Portnoy fan and never will be. He ruined all the records during his time in DT and he should have left earlier than he did. Not worth anything technically and musically.

I, myself, don't like Mike Portnoy either, even when he was in the band. Afterwards things were going bad too. But I can't deny his amazing and original performance on SDOIT and SFAM. He surely added some character to DT's musical identity.

[erwinrafael]

David Prater should have replaced MP with samples entirely on I/W and ACOS. More pleasing to these ears. (And TTT shouldn't have been on I/W at all. The song that ruined the album for me in addition to MP.)

Nah. Even if Pull Me Under was Dream Theater's breakthrough hit, for many, what made Dream Theater THE Dream Theater was Metropolis Pt. 1, and Portnoy's drumming was such a big element in that signature sound.

[Volante99]

Controversial opinion;

Awake is an amazing album, possibly their best but it’s only weak point is JLB’s “over-singing”.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s an amazing exercise in vocal performance but it’s all a bit...much. I spun the record for a friend the other night and he enjoyed it but one of his critiques was, “the singer needs to calm down a bit”. I kind of agree. Of course I don’t blame JLB, he didn’t write all the vocal melodies.

[erwinrafael]

Hmmm...it depends on the song. Maybe for CIAW, IF, and 6:00. But for The Mirror and Scarred, the vocals are warranted given the lyrics.

[SeRoX]

Controversial opinion;

Awake is an amazing album, possibly their best but it’s only weak point is JLB’s “over-singing”.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s an amazing exercise in vocal performance but it’s all a bit...much. I spun the record for a friend the other night and he enjoyed it but one of his critiques was, “the singer needs to calm down a bit”. I kind of agree. Of course I don’t blame JLB, he didn’t write all the vocal melodies.

He mostly oversings on live, especially back in his prime (Which I think he destroyed his voice by doing this and food accident was just a cherry on the cake.) But I don't think he oversang on the album.

[Volante99]

Hmmm...it depends on the song. Maybe for CIAW, IF, and 6:00. But for The Mirror and Scarred, the vocals are warranted given the lyrics.

I’d throw Voices in there. When I mean oversing, I mean it as in spending a bit too much time in that upper register. You can strip the paint off your walls with some of those vocals. 

[SeRoX]

I don't know if it's the right place to talk about this but here it is.

Do you think LaBrie would sound more powerfull in this age if he didn't have food accident?

My thought is he would still sound like he sounds this time because of age factor but also he would still have that punch in his voice but that's a minor thing and can't change much.

[MirrorMask]

Hard to say. He basically recovered by 2005-6, and in 2007 I heard him nailing the high note in Learning to Live, so the power was there. I guess it comes down to age, singing tecniques, and how he takes care of his voice that determines how it all goes.

[Volante99]

This has been discussed to death but I feel like the food poisoning incident was just the nail in the coffin. He was showing signs of losing range well prior. I’m sure it didn’t help matters but I would say over straining his voice, not the best technique, crazy touring schedules, overly demanding material all played a more important role than one single incident.

Here’s another controversial opinion:

BC&SL is just a fun prog metal album and doesn’t deserve the hate. Nightmare to Remember is a good song  (the few lines of Portnoy vocals don’t really bother me), Beautiful Agony is a gorgeous middle section, Rite of Passage has a great hook/chorus (rare for a DT song), Best of Times is a great tribute to Portnoy’s father and screams classic prog. The Count of Tuscany is one of their best songs in my book, the intro/outro is amongst the best work they’ve ever done. It’s weakness is the middle Petrucci section being a bit too long. Wither is just okay, but nothing offensively bad unlike many of their other ballads. Shattered Fortress is a fitting end to the 12 step suite that pulls everything together.

Sure, the album isn’t their greatest artistic achievement but it’s FUN! I think the album is a bit tongue in cheek and that throws some people off. I don’t really hear any signs of them being burnt out, on the contrary it sounds totally inspired compared to the weaker Systematic Chaos. Easily their most underrated album.

[bosk1]

This has been discussed to death but I feel like the food poisoning incident was just the nail in the coffin. He was showing signs of losing range well prior. I’m sure it didn’t help matters but I would say over straining his voice, not the best technique, crazy touring schedules, overly demanding material all played a more important role than one single incident.

I get where you are coming from.  I will quibble a bit with part of that, and here's why:  I don't think he was showing signs of losing range prior to that.  But he was struggling at times because of the factors you mention (technique, touring schedule, the demanding nature of the songs, etc.).  He was, at times, showing some wear and tear.  But I don't think he was showing signs of losing range at that stage.  His range was still spectacular.  But that said, where I think you and I ultimately agree, is that that was not sustainable, and if he continued, he almost assuredly would have started showing signs of losing range in the future.  And you're right--the accident just exacerbated things.

Here’s another controversial opinion:

BC&SL is just a fun prog metal album and doesn’t deserve the hate...

I agree.  I've often expressed similar opinions.  I still rank it near the bottom of the DT discography.  But it's a fine album with, IMO, a couple of great songs and a LOT of great moments.

[Ben_Jamin]

Again, you're missing the point. This is a huge classic from their classic era we're talking about. That stuff should've been better documented *at the time*. And it's not about specific home video formats, it's so it remains available to people in the future. Until 2006 there was no good way for a fan to see the Metropolis bass tapping section on video, one of the prime Myung moments in their discography, because Portnoy chose poor bootleg footage of the song over a professional recording. It's not just about the last 90 seconds.

And the Score version had the orchestra, which means we never got a full version of Metropolis played by just Dream Theater with Mike Portnoy on an officially released live concert video. That is crazy to think about.

I was gonna ask about Live Scenes from New York but I looked it up and the DVD doesn't have all the tracks. It's really a fucking shame that they couldn't put out a super DVD edition with all the tracks that were on the 3 CD live album.

They do play the songs on the dvd, also with some clips. Like The Mirror when JLB is wearing a hat. They're on the behind the scenes and photo gallery.

[TheGreatPretender]

This has been discussed to death but I feel like the food poisoning incident was just the nail in the coffin. He was showing signs of losing range well prior. I’m sure it didn’t help matters but I would say over straining his voice, not the best technique, crazy touring schedules, overly demanding material all played a more important role than one single incident.

I get where you are coming from.  I will quibble a bit with part of that, and here's why:  I don't think he was showing signs of losing range prior to that.  But he was struggling at times because of the factors you mention (technique, touring schedule, the demanding nature of the songs, etc.).  He was, at times, showing some wear and tear.  But I don't think he was showing signs of losing range at that stage.  His range was still spectacular.  But that said, where I think you and I ultimately agree, is that that was not sustainable, and if he continued, he almost assuredly would have started showing signs of losing range in the future.  And you're right--the accident just exacerbated things.

I disagree. Or at least I wouldn't put it that lightly. Maybe it wasn't sustainable (though he himself said that prior to the accident his range was actually improving). But let's say the way he did things would have deteriorated his voice. If that started happening, and he noticed that it was happening, he could have prevented it, started taking better care of his voice, or dialed it back in certain aspects, and retained everything he had for the long term. And if he hadn't, that deterioration would have taken years to show its full impact, and he would have had plenty of opportunity to prevent it.
But the accident, it allowed no such opportunity. It completely derailed things. Yes, the fact that he was supposed to not sing AT ALL, and yet, he went out on tour the following month, probably only cemented the damage, but the bulk of it was already done.

[pg1067]

This has been discussed to death but I feel like the food poisoning incident was just the nail in the coffin. He was showing signs of losing range well prior. I’m sure it didn’t help matters but I would say over straining his voice, not the best technique, crazy touring schedules, overly demanding material all played a more important role than one single incident.

I agree with Bosk's quibble, and I think the answer to the original question is that, in the absence of the food poisoning incident, JLB's voice would still be about what it is today.

Here’s another controversial opinion:

BC&SL is just a fun prog metal album and doesn’t deserve the hate. Nightmare to Remember is a good song  (the few lines of Portnoy vocals don’t really bother me), Beautiful Agony is a gorgeous middle section, Rite of Passage has a great hook/chorus (rare for a DT song), Best of Times is a great tribute to Portnoy’s father and screams classic prog. The Count of Tuscany is one of their best songs in my book, the intro/outro is amongst the best work they’ve ever done. It’s weakness is the middle Petrucci section being a bit too long. Wither is just okay, but nothing offensively bad unlike many of their other ballads. Shattered Fortress is a fitting end to the 12 step suite that pulls everything together.

Sure, the album isn’t their greatest artistic achievement but it’s FUN! I think the album is a bit tongue in cheek and that throws some people off. I don’t really hear any signs of them being burnt out, on the contrary it sounds totally inspired compared to the weaker Systematic Chaos. Easily their most underrated album.

I don't "hate" the album (and I'm honestly not sure I've ever read any statement that anyone "hates" it).  However, it is in my bottom 5 of DT albums, and I don't think there's much of anything that's "fun" about it.  I love and always have loved Wither.  It's a really well-written song.  Also, my old band had a similarly themed song about writers' block, so that give it a little bump for me.  ANTR and AROP are fine, but neither has had any staying power for me (I do agree about the "beautiful agony" section, though).  TSF is fine, but it is largely a re-hashing of ground covered on prior songs, one of which (TDS) I find to be just "meh" and the other of which (Repentance) is a bottom-5 DT song for me.  TBOT is another bottom-5 song for me.  TCOT is far and away the best song on the album, but it is not without flaws (as per my commentary on the "rank the DT epics" thread).

[MoraWintersoul]

Hard to say. He basically recovered by 2005-6, and in 2007 I heard him nailing the high note in Learning to Live, so the power was there. I guess it comes down to age, singing tecniques, and how he takes care of his voice that determines how it all goes.

I think JLB's voice now is about same as it would have been without the accident. The real tragedy of the accident is that just as soon as he recovered from it, age started catching up with him, what we were essentially robbed of is JLB's entire prime as a musician. He's was great in his early prime, and he has great moments today and has had a bunch of great moments, especially in the studio, in his guest performances, and on great vocal nights all throughout his career - some of which have been professionally recorded, some only as bootlegs.

But.

In 1992 and especially 1993 (Marco can testify if he's reading the thread, and any other bootleg afficionado), he's simultaneously both amazingly powerful and all over the place most of the time. He doesn't sound bad, except on a rare off night, but he doesn't have the maturity to properly measure the grit to clean ratio and all the other stuff he was juggling. He's great to listen to, no doubt. Probably the best metal singer in those years whose name wasn't Dickinson, Halford or Tate. But not what I would call absolute prime just yet.

In 1994, on the Rudess experiment bootleg. The beginning of absolute prime. He is out of shape (he says so), takes a few songs to warm up. But then he absolutely murders the rest of the set. It's everything he needs to be, and more. Yes, there's tiny imperfections, yes, it's a live environment, but he does everything exactly the way it should be done. He knows what to do.

And then the accident robs us of ten years of that - sure, with all the natural highs and lows he would have had, maybe other injuries, other factors. And there's no use crying over spilled milk. But as a huge fan of JLB's voice, it's something that's hard for me to think about.

[MirrorMask]

I'm with you Mora, I try to not think about it too much because the idea that one of the very best singers of the scene got such an unfair and undeserved bad luck is just hard to contemplate.

BC&SL is just a fun prog metal album and doesn’t deserve the hate. Nightmare to Remember is a good song  (the few lines of Portnoy vocals don’t really bother me), Beautiful Agony is a gorgeous middle section, Rite of Passage has a great hook/chorus (rare for a DT song), Best of Times is a great tribute to Portnoy’s father and screams classic prog. The Count of Tuscany is one of their best songs in my book, the intro/outro is amongst the best work they’ve ever done. It’s weakness is the middle Petrucci section being a bit too long. Wither is just okay, but nothing offensively bad unlike many of their other ballads. Shattered Fortress is a fitting end to the 12 step suite that pulls everything together.

Sure, the album isn’t their greatest artistic achievement but it’s FUN! I think the album is a bit tongue in cheek and that throws some people off. I don’t really hear any signs of them being burnt out, on the contrary it sounds totally inspired compared to the weaker Systematic Chaos. Easily their most underrated album.

The "problem" with this album for me is that.... well, on one hand I agree with you, my opinion of the songs is basically yours. The thing is that the stuff you described is not what makes up all the songs - there's a lot of bloat that weighs them down. The copy and paste solo sections. The uncoherent mess that becomes Nightmare after the end of the Beautiful Agony section. Lyrics not at the top of their usual game.

Ironically "Black Clouds and silver linings" describe for me nearly all the songs - YES, they are good BUT this thing here and that thing there feels forced, unnecessary, or long for the sake of being long. This is the album most of all that would have needed an external producer, to keep them focused and help them trim down the fat. Also the infamous debate about what to do with the Day after day part...... when Portnoy posted clips of the variations they came up with before settling for the final outcome.... THAT's where precisely a producer, a professional, could have weighed in and told them what to do, just like Kevin Shirley righteously told them "listen, there's no point in going off the rails during a concise rocking song like Burning My Soul, just split the middle section and have it as an instrumental. With the unintended good consequence of them writing the latter part of Hell's Kitchen to finish into Lines in the Sand which is the best part of the album.

I don't know how I would have arranged A Nightmare to Remember, I'm just a music fan. An external producer whose job is coordinating musicians would have.

[Ninjabait]

When you think about it, Octavarium is basically a really long ballad

[Dream Team]

When you think about it, Octavarium is basically a really long ballad

Kinda? That middle section though? But anyway, both the beginning and ending of that song are very beautiful and some absolute top DT moments.