Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Ben_Jamin]

You mention you liked Metropolis' wacky instrumental section, but hated it when they started doing it with other songs. The thing is, that style of writing is part of who they are. Not that they do it all the time, but it shouldn't be surprising that they take a left turn for some songs because that's exactly what they intended to do. JP himself commented about that in the Chaos in Motion tourbook:

At times DT’s music can seem a bit disconnected like during moments in Metropolis, The Dance of Eternity and The Dark Eternal Night. At other times there is adefinite feeling of form and structure as found in songs like Peruvian Skies, I Walk Beside You and As I Am. The fact is, no matter what the song or passage, everything exists for a reason. Whether worked out collectively or individually, whether derived from spontaneous inspiration or crafted deliberation, each drum fill, guitar solo, vocal melody, keyboard line and bass riff has a meaning and purpose. Being progressive could mean a 25 minute song, it could mean a ragtime piano breakdown sandwiched between two Mudvayne inspired 7-string riffs, never returning to the same verse form twice in a song arrangement or stretching the limitations of any given instrument’s normal role. Why? Why not??

That style of writing is who they are, sure. But it got a LOT worse (the sections deviating from the vibe of the song completely) once they started self-producing. I think Dream Theater's best music, for the most part, was when they had someone working with them to hone in things a bit. That's not to say I don't like that style in spurts. I just don't like hearing it all the time, and that was the direction they took following FII. I mean, "Endless Sacrifice" is the absolute perfect example. KILLER song, great chorus....and a five minute instrumental that could easily be 90 seconds and tie in with the vein of the tune. Ugh.

I get it, its part of who they are. And that's why, while I am a fan, Dream Theater will never be one of my absolute favorites, despite having a couple of albums (I&W, Awake) in my top-20 records of all time, and a bunch of songs I love (spread across their career, but generally ending after ToT).

You do realize that DT was self produced since scenes.

[erwinrafael]

JR's circus part in ES is just as out of place as Mike Portnoy's drum showoff at the end of Finally Free if one's basis is that it doesn't fit the tone of the lyrics.

[Bertielee]

JR's circus part in ES is just as out of place as Mike Portnoy's drum showoff at the end of Finally Free if one's basis is that it doesn't fit the tone of the lyrics.

Tbh, I love both. Truth is, my mind is out of place most of the time, so...

B.Lee

[mikeyd23]

While I understand the complaints of that circus/vaudeville in part in Endless Sacrifice and how it doesn't really fit the theme of the song, I've always enjoyed it a lot. Might be one of my favorite part of the song to be honest (I guess that's fairly controversial  )

Yeah this is pretty much how I feel too. I get what people are saying, but I love ES and those JR parts are enjoyable to me.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

I really don't get a whole lot of mileage out of those out-of-left-field instrumental pieces these days. Probably the worst offender being TMOLS. Just sounds ridiculously tone-deaf.

[Samsara]

You mention you liked Metropolis' wacky instrumental section, but hated it when they started doing it with other songs. The thing is, that style of writing is part of who they are. Not that they do it all the time, but it shouldn't be surprising that they take a left turn for some songs because that's exactly what they intended to do. JP himself commented about that in the Chaos in Motion tourbook:

At times DT’s music can seem a bit disconnected like during moments in Metropolis, The Dance of Eternity and The Dark Eternal Night. At other times there is adefinite feeling of form and structure as found in songs like Peruvian Skies, I Walk Beside You and As I Am. The fact is, no matter what the song or passage, everything exists for a reason. Whether worked out collectively or individually, whether derived from spontaneous inspiration or crafted deliberation, each drum fill, guitar solo, vocal melody, keyboard line and bass riff has a meaning and purpose. Being progressive could mean a 25 minute song, it could mean a ragtime piano breakdown sandwiched between two Mudvayne inspired 7-string riffs, never returning to the same verse form twice in a song arrangement or stretching the limitations of any given instrument’s normal role. Why? Why not??

That style of writing is who they are, sure. But it got a LOT worse (the sections deviating from the vibe of the song completely) once they started self-producing. I think Dream Theater's best music, for the most part, was when they had someone working with them to hone in things a bit. That's not to say I don't like that style in spurts. I just don't like hearing it all the time, and that was the direction they took following FII. I mean, "Endless Sacrifice" is the absolute perfect example. KILLER song, great chorus....and a five minute instrumental that could easily be 90 seconds and tie in with the vein of the tune. Ugh.

I get it, its part of who they are. And that's why, while I am a fan, Dream Theater will never be one of my absolute favorites, despite having a couple of albums (I&W, Awake) in my top-20 records of all time, and a bunch of songs I love (spread across their career, but generally ending after ToT).

You do realize that DT was self produced since scenes.

Uh, yeah. And that coincides nicely with the fact that I much prefer I&W and Awake (and arguably FII) to anything from Scenes to now.

[Dedalus]

It's funny, because I consider SFAM better produced than the previous four albums.

[jakepriest]

It's funny, because I consider SFAM better produced than the previous four albums.

He's not talking about the mastering and production, but the way the music is written and put together.

[Dedalus]

It's funny, because I consider SFAM better produced than the previous four albums.

He's not talking about the mastering and production, but the way the music is written and put together.

But even in that sense, I think it's a well-produced album.

Moreover, can we consider that there was a lot of interference from external producers in WDADU, I&W and Awake, since we know the demos?

I'm not trying to defend MP and JP as producers, I make it clear. 

[Samsara]

It's funny, because I consider SFAM better produced than the previous four albums.

He's not talking about the mastering and production, but the way the music is written and put together.

This.

But even in that sense, I think it's a well-produced album.

Moreover, can we consider that there was a lot of interference from external producers in WDADU, I&W and Awake, since we know the demos?

I'm not trying to defend MP and JP as producers, I make it clear. 

Like was said, I wasn't talking about the production of the records. Just songwriting and the way an external producer tends to offer alternative approaches to things, and suggests changes to songs.

I wouldn't call what producers did from WDADU through FII to be "interference." I call it doing their job, and Dream Theater, IMO, was better for it.

[Dedalus]

I got it.

I just don't think the external producers were that vital. From WDADU to Awake the final version is pretty close to the demos, overall.
I'm not saying the producers didn't do their job. But it would be different if we heard the demos of these albums and they were significantly different. If the demos were full of excesses as in many cases of modern DT, and the producers had "cut the fat", I would have another opinion.

[Ruba]

I was thinking about posting this into the DOT topic, but maybe it belongs here.

I don't like Mangini's drum sound on these singles. Especially the snare, which feels kind of mechanical and lifeless. Now, this has nothing to do with Mangini's drumming itself, just the production. And this goes further than just Dream Theater, many modern metal bands similarly have bland-sounding drums. I'm not wholly educated in the topic, but I think my issue is with drum triggers. I feel they kill some of the dynamics drums naturally have and generally make the drums sound like they've been straight-up programmed. I'm in favour of more organic sounding drums. Call me old-fashioned, but I like my drums sounding like the drummer POUNDS the hell out of the skins when it's heavy.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

I was thinking about posting this into the DOT topic, but maybe it belongs here.

I don't like Mangini's drum sound on these singles. Especially the snare, which feels kind of mechanical and lifeless. Now, this has nothing to do with Mangini's drumming itself, just the production. And this goes further than just Dream Theater, many modern metal bands similarly have bland-sounding drums. I'm not wholly educated in the topic, but I think my issue is with drum triggers. I feel they kill some of the dynamics drums naturally have and generally make the drums sound like they've been straight-up programmed. I'm in favour of more organic sounding drums. Call me old-fashioned, but I like my drums sounding like the drummer POUNDS the hell out of the skins when it's heavy.
[/quocars
I think triggers can be extremely useful but only if they're utilized properly. For example, a  lot of mix engineers will completely replace the snare instead of using a blend of the snare sample and the original recorded drum. Replacing the drum completely can really screw with the dynamics but if you do a good job of blending the two, the sample can really help get a good full body out of a drum if it was captured poorly.

[rumborak]

I actually feel the bottom half of his kit sounds pretty decent on these singles. It's the cymbals that are IMO paper thin. The hihat in Paralyzed sounds like a salt shaker at times. It's weird, whenever he makes progress in one aspect of his sounds like, some other aspect suffers.

[bosk1]

I actually feel the bottom half of his kit sounds pretty decent on these singles. It's the cymbals that are IMO paper thin. The hihat in Paralyzed sounds like a salt shaker at times. It's weird, whenever he makes progress in one aspect of his sounds like, some other aspect suffers.

I agree.  That was the one knock I posted about having from hearing the album for the first time.  But I don't view it as a step back.  His cymbals have sounded bad since day 1 in DT.  They may not have sounded this mushy, but they have been almost inaudible in the past. 

[ReaPsTA]

I actually feel the bottom half of his kit sounds pretty decent on these singles. It's the cymbals that are IMO paper thin. The hihat in Paralyzed sounds like a salt shaker at times. It's weird, whenever he makes progress in one aspect of his sounds like, some other aspect suffers.

Cymbals should, in theory, sound bright and colorful while still being smooth and creamy enough to blend into a mix. Your salt shaker analogy is spot on. There's a strong brittle body to the Mangini's cymbals that, when removed, doesn't leave a lot left.

[Zook]

I like Imposter Portnoy's drumming on the new songs more.

[Max Kuehnau]

Jordan and MM and quite possibly James are the most vital DT members. (meaning irreplaceable)

[jakepriest]

Jordan and MM and quite possibly James are the most vital DT members. (meaning irreplaceable)

So JP who has been the main composer since the first album is more replacable than James and Jordan? What?

[Max Kuehnau]

Jordan and MM and quite possibly James are the most vital DT members. (meaning irreplaceable)

So JP who has been the main composer since the first album is more replacable than James and Jordan? What?

Not as a composer, that is definitely JP's strength. (and I'm not here to say anyone in DT is bad or anything.) I'm referring to technical proficiency. I know that's a controversial opinion. (That's why I thought it would belong here)

[ThatOneGuy2112]

There's more that makes up DT's core sound than just technical musicianship, and it's mostly due to JP's songwriting and production.

JP not being as much of a virtuoso as JR or MM does not make him more "replaceable".

[Max Kuehnau]

There's more that makes up DT's core sound than just technical musicianship, and it's mostly due to JP's songwriting and production.

JP not being as much of a virtuoso as JR or MM does not make him more "replaceable".

I would praise JP's (and James' and JM's) songwriting abilities as much as anyone. I actually do.

[gzarruk]

Jordan and MM and quite possibly James are the most vital DT members. (meaning irreplaceable)

To me, the only irreplaceable member in DT is John Petrucci.

[Dedalus]

Jordan and MM and quite possibly James are the most vital DT members. (meaning irreplaceable)

To me, the only irreplaceable member in DT is John Petrucci.

And JLB too, at least for me.
I will not listen to a new singer after 13 studio albums

[Max Kuehnau]

James won't leave anytime soon I think, so never fear. I don't.

[MirrorMask]

Petrucci and LaBrie are what makes DT, well, DT - Petrucci with his songwriting, his style, his attitude towards the band and the fact that he's always been there since day one. There are out there guitarists who could technically replace him, but only JP can write songs that make DT the band it is.

LaBrie is the voice of the band. Freddie Mercury reincarnated wouldn't feel "right" with DT, he's been there an entire carrer minus the debut album and no matter who you get, it wouldn't feel right. You could find a singer who could nail Learning to Live night after night, but a singer that would feel like he's born to sing DT songs? hell no.

Jordan's leaving would be a huge blow, and would change very drastically the dynamics of the band, but as long as Petrucci is still there, it would still sound like DT. After all Jordan wasn't on Images and Words and Awake.

Myung... the man is so shrouded in mystery, and I'm not a musician or bass player anyway, so I can't have a proper opinion on how much his presence is vital to the core of DT.

Mangini, sorry, he's the replaceable one. No disrespect to the guy, I like him and I hope he stays until the end of the band, but he's with the band since only 2011 anyway. DT went on without Portnoy, they could as well go on without Mangini.

[rumborak]

Calling MM irreplaceable is kinda odd since he replaced a supposedly irreplaceable person.

[ReaperKK]

I in regards to irreplaceable I think JP holds that title. He IMO is the driving force behind DT. Now I'm not saying they other guys are hired guns, but JP is the heart of DT.

[rumborak]

Jordan and MM and quite possibly James are the most vital DT members. (meaning irreplaceable)

To me, the only irreplaceable member in DT is John Petrucci.

And JLB too, at least for me.
I will not listen to a new singer after 13 studio albums

I can't think of a more "irreplaceable" frontman than Freddie Mercury, and yet Queen w/ Adam Lambert fills sports arenas with ease. I will definitely agree that JLB is *the voice* of Dream Theater, but if DT said "listen, James retired on his own volition, but we got this kid who nails all the old material with ease", I suspect people would show up for that.

[jonny108]

Jordan and MM and quite possibly James are the most vital DT members. (meaning irreplaceable)

To me, the only irreplaceable member in DT is John Petrucci.

And JLB too, at least for me.
I will not listen to a new singer after 13 studio albums

I can't think of a more "irreplaceable" frontman than Freddie Mercury, and yet Queen w/ Adam Lambert fills sports arenas with ease. I will definitely agree that JLB is *the voice* of Dream Theater, but if DT said "listen, James retired on his own volition, but we got this kid who nails all the old material with ease", I suspect people would show up for that.

Not for me, I don't see Queen w/ Adam Lambert as Queen neither, it seems like more of a tribute to the music of Queen.  JLB is the sound of DT and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[jammindude]

I agree completely.   Even right now.   I mean, I am one of JLBs biggest fans and supporters.   But if he just decided he wanted to pull a Neil Peart move and just say "I love these guys, but I can't do it 100% any more and I want to spend time with my family", I would be totally down with that.   

And if that were to happen, I wouldn't want someone who was a soundalike, but definitely someone who was capable of doing the older material. 

[Dedalus]

I can't think of a more "irreplaceable" frontman than Freddie Mercury, and yet Queen w/ Adam Lambert fills sports arenas with ease. I will definitely agree that JLB is *the voice* of Dream Theater, but if DT said "listen, James retired on his own volition, but we got this kid who nails all the old material with ease", I suspect people would show up for that.

Oh, what I've said was from a personal point of view.

Just today I read dozens of comments like "Bring Portnoy back, and send JLB away." So I don't think it would be a big drama for LaBrie's eventual absence (at least for a considerable portion of the fanbase). And even people who like him could see the situation in a positive way.

You're right, people would show up for that. But don't count on me.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

To me, the only irreplaceable member in DT is John Petrucci.

This doesn't belong in an opinion thread since it's a plain fact.

[gzarruk]

To me, the only irreplaceable member in DT is John Petrucci.

This doesn't belong in an opinion thread since it's a plain fact.

John has been the main music and lyric writer in DT since the beginning, he's always been the band leader to me and I could see any other member being replaced at some point but not him. Even if you put Eric Gillete there, who is the most JP-ish out of the Petrucci clone guitarists out there, it still wouldn't feel right.

[LCArenas]

As of today, I prefer to listen to ADToE over Scenes from a Memory, and it's my fourth favorite DT album after I&W, Awake and 6DoIT.