Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Samsara]

Oh, here's a controversial opinion: I think the label restructuring the songs on FII was mostly a good thing. With the exception of TAMP, I prefer every album track to its demo version (even YNM).

In fact, I also prefer the radio edits of the three singles to the album versions. I enjoy how much catchier they feel in their shorter form.

I agree with you completely.

[hefdaddy42]

Here's one that will no doubt have the majority disagreeing with.

Anna Lee is a top-20 song in Dream Theater's catalog.

There is so much to love in a song that has such a simple instrumentation. John's playing (lap steel, if I am not mistaken -- guitarists correct me) is just FULL of soul, Derek paints such an emotional landscape with his opening chords and throughout that song, and James singing is simply beautiful. And it is one of the few times when I hear Portnoy playing a very slow song, that he's not overplaying. He provided the absolute perfect percussion to the tune.

I know its not something typical for Dream Theater to do. Something simplistic like this. (Although they have similar simplistic songs, they are more rare, obviously). But its so incredibly emotional, and a high point, at least for me, in their huge catalog of tunes. Sometimes, less is more. They nailed that on this one.

I love Anna Lee. Beautiful song.

But I don't think he's playing a lapsteel. Pretty sure it's just a slide on a normal guitar.

Yep.  Not lap steel.  He's playing an Ibanez Talman guitar using a slide.

[Samsara]

Here's one that will no doubt have the majority disagreeing with.

Anna Lee is a top-20 song in Dream Theater's catalog.

There is so much to love in a song that has such a simple instrumentation. John's playing (lap steel, if I am not mistaken -- guitarists correct me) is just FULL of soul, Derek paints such an emotional landscape with his opening chords and throughout that song, and James singing is simply beautiful. And it is one of the few times when I hear Portnoy playing a very slow song, that he's not overplaying. He provided the absolute perfect percussion to the tune.

I know its not something typical for Dream Theater to do. Something simplistic like this. (Although they have similar simplistic songs, they are more rare, obviously). But its so incredibly emotional, and a high point, at least for me, in their huge catalog of tunes. Sometimes, less is more. They nailed that on this one.

I love Anna Lee. Beautiful song.

But I don't think he's playing a lapsteel. Pretty sure it's just a slide on a normal guitar.

Yep.  Not lap steel.  He's playing an Ibanez Talman guitar using a slide.

Thanks guys. I should have known that. appreciate the correction.

[pg1067]

Oh, here's a controversial opinion: I think the label restructuring the songs on FII was mostly a good thing. With the exception of TAMP, I prefer every album track to its demo version (even YNM).

In fact, I also prefer the radio edits of the three singles to the album versions. I enjoy how much catchier they feel in their shorter form.

I don't know how controversial it is to think (as I do) that "You Not Me" is vastly superior to "You or Me."  MP notes on his web site that, once the label declined to release a two-CD set, they weren't going to use YOM, but they obviously did choose to include it after it became YNM.

That said, I'm not sure that the "label restructur[ed] [any of] the songs on FII."  Citing Lifting Shadows, the Wikipedia article for the album notes that Kevin Shirley "made significant alterations to some of [the songs]; most notably, he took the middle section of 'Burning My Soul' and turned it into what would become 'Hell's Kitchen.'"  Shirley also suggested the collaboration with Desmond Child on YOM/YNM.  This is consistent with what's on MP's web site.  I think the label's biggest direct involvement with the music was the refusal to release a two-CD set, which resulted in the poorest songs being omitted.  That's certainly a good thing IMO.

Maybe the distinction between Kevin Shirley editing the songs and the label doing it is one that's meaningful only to me, but I think it's a big distinction (especially when you consider that DT continued to work with Shirley throughout MP's tenure with the band).  With the exception of YOM, I've probably only listened to the demo versions once or maybe twice, but I don't recall any of them being so significantly different or better or worse than what ended up on the album (other than, obviously, BMS being a lot different with HK in the middle).

Yeah, but they just weren't working with great material to begin with.

Exactly.

Here's one that will no doubt have the majority disagreeing with.

Anna Lee is a top-20 song in Dream Theater's catalog.

There is so much to love in a song that has such a simple instrumentation. John's playing (lap steel, if I am not mistaken -- guitarists correct me) is just FULL of soul, Derek paints such an emotional landscape with his opening chords and throughout that song, and James singing is simply beautiful. And it is one of the few times when I hear Portnoy playing a very slow song, that he's not overplaying. He provided the absolute perfect percussion to the tune.

I know its not something typical for Dream Theater to do. Something simplistic like this. (Although they have similar simplistic songs, they are more rare, obviously). But its so incredibly emotional, and a high point, at least for me, in their huge catalog of tunes. Sometimes, less is more. They nailed that on this one.

I'll just ignore the "top-20" part of your post and say that it's a wonderful song that I like a lot.  That way, it can feel like I'm agreeing with you.

That's about where I am.  "Top 20" goes WAY too far for me, but I like it a lot, and it's one of my favorite songs on FII (which, given my opinion about that album as a whole, isn't saying a lot, but I do enjoy the song).

[pg1067]

deleted

[rumborak]

Speaking of Anna Lee, there's always this version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-qZ6YsrOh8

[MirrorMask]

I'm too in the camp of those who think that, starting from the point that there had to be a single CD for Falling Into Infinity, all the decisions were for the better. There's no need to be prog for the sake of being prog and interrupt the flow of an ordinary rocking song, it was right to remove what became Hell's Kitchen. If you want to try to gain some exposure, You Not Me is a crystal clear better attempt than You Or Me. Nevermind that the song bombed, it was a better shot than YOM. Hollow Years works just fine with the more streamlined bridge. And my personal preference is that Speak to Me was worthier of making the album cut than Take Away My Pain but I get the latter had a more personal meaning for MP.

Also, consider the two best unintended good consequences of this "tampering":

- The band creating the best part of Hell's Kitchen, the whole final passage to lead into Lines in the Sand;
- Needless to say, Metropolis pt. 2 being shelved so that it could become Scenes 

[Samsara]

One of the best decisions that was ever made on that record was to remove Hell's Kitchen from Burning My Soul and making it a standalone track. MUCH better. In a nutshell, the whole "Metropolis" template is why I get frustrated with the band. It was cool to have an off the wall instrumental section that eventually tied back into the song in Metropolis. But they started trying to mimic that going forward (particularly starting after FII), and its not cool (for me). If your solo is so far off the main vibe of the tune that it detracts from the song itself, it shouldn't be the solo (generally speaking, for me, personally).

I always considered Metropolis cool because it was an oddity to my ear, and was a fun adventure. But when that started getting repeated, I started getting annoyed with it. Burning My Soul '96, as originally presented, sucked, to me. It is MUCH better as two separate songs -- the incredible "Hell's Kitchen," and the so-so "Burning My Soul." (Which I like, but not nearly as much as Hell's Kitchen on its own.)

[MirrorMask]

Funny thing, I consider Metropolis' solo section quite enjoyable, fitting to the song, and for most of it, quite memorable and even hummable. What you describe I feel it more in the latter albums of the MP era, it's there when the solo sections felt more like jams and disconnected from the mood of the songs, but as long and maybe bloated as it is, I love Metropolis' solo section.

[Dedalus]

Metropolis solo section is responsible for me posting this here more than 20 years later.

[Samsara]

No, no, don't misunderstand. I very much LOVE the Metropolis solo section. Because I felt it was a different and sort of unique approach. But then they sorta mirrored that "lets put a solo that has barely anything to do with the song that sounds like a standalone section" style more and more over the years, and it was that STYLE that I soured on, or at least the repetitive nature of how it appeared in DT songs going forward, with BMS '96 being a prime example of where it was much better being removed to be its own track (HK).

[pg1067]

One of the best decisions that was ever made on that record was to remove Hell's Kitchen from Burning My Soul and making it a standalone track. MUCH better. . . .

. . . Burning My Soul '96, as originally presented, sucked, to me. It is MUCH better as two separate songs -- the incredible "Hell's Kitchen," and the so-so "Burning My Soul." (Which I like, but not nearly as much as Hell's Kitchen on its own.)

Yes, yes, and more yes!

[PetFish]

Re:  Anna Lee

Great ditty.  I love the part right before the solo.  What's the name of that part of a song?  I don't think it's a/the bridge, or maybe it is, I dunno.

Seeing JP play it with a slide on a Rickenbacker is one of the weirdest moments in DT history.

[Samsara]

Re:  Anna Lee

Great ditty.  I love the part right before the solo.  What's the name of that part of a song?  I don't think it's a/the bridge, or maybe it is, I dunno.

Seeing JP play it with a slide on a Rickenbacker is one of the weirdest moments in DT history.

Yup, that's the bridge.

[pg1067]

Re:  Anna Lee

Great ditty.  I love the part right before the solo.  What's the name of that part of a song?  I don't think it's a/the bridge, or maybe it is, I dunno.

Seeing JP play it with a slide on a Rickenbacker is one of the weirdest moments in DT history.

Yup, that's the bridge.

Where's that confounded bridge?!

[Samsara]

Re:  Anna Lee

Great ditty.  I love the part right before the solo.  What's the name of that part of a song?  I don't think it's a/the bridge, or maybe it is, I dunno.

Seeing JP play it with a slide on a Rickenbacker is one of the weirdest moments in DT history.

Yup, that's the bridge.

Where's that confounded bridge?!

It's in Hell's Kitchen. 

[MoraWintersoul]

One of the best decisions that was ever made on that record was to remove Hell's Kitchen from Burning My Soul and making it a standalone track.

Burning My Soul is in my top ten worst DT tracks, and Hell's Kitchen is one of my favorite instrumentals of all time, so I'm very grateful for that decision as well.

re: Anna Lee in your top 20, I wonder if you ever made a DT top 50 back when those threads were trendy! Not that I disagree, Anna Lee is fantastic, but you'd be surprised at how many things pop out of your top twenty when you remember a song you love even more than the previous one.

[pg1067]

Re:  Anna Lee

Great ditty.  I love the part right before the solo.  What's the name of that part of a song?  I don't think it's a/the bridge, or maybe it is, I dunno.

Seeing JP play it with a slide on a Rickenbacker is one of the weirdest moments in DT history.

Yup, that's the bridge.

Where's that confounded bridge?!

It's in Hell's Kitchen. 

 

[Setlist Scotty]

One of the best decisions that was ever made on that record was to remove Hell's Kitchen from Burning My Soul and making it a standalone track. MUCH better. In a nutshell, the whole "Metropolis" template is why I get frustrated with the band. It was cool to have an off the wall instrumental section that eventually tied back into the song in Metropolis. But they started trying to mimic that going forward (particularly starting after FII), and its not cool (for me). If your solo is so far off the main vibe of the tune that it detracts from the song itself, it shouldn't be the solo (generally speaking, for me, personally).

I always considered Metropolis cool because it was an oddity to my ear, and was a fun adventure. But when that started getting repeated, I started getting annoyed with it. Burning My Soul '96, as originally presented, sucked, to me. It is MUCH better as two separate songs -- the incredible "Hell's Kitchen," and the so-so "Burning My Soul." (Which I like, but not nearly as much as Hell's Kitchen on its own.)

You mention you liked Metropolis' wacky instrumental section, but hated it when they started doing it with other songs. The thing is, that style of writing is part of who they are. Not that they do it all the time, but it shouldn't be surprising that they take a left turn for some songs because that's exactly what they intended to do. JP himself commented about that in the Chaos in Motion tourbook:

At times DT’s music can seem a bit disconnected like during moments in Metropolis, The Dance of Eternity and The Dark Eternal Night. At other times there is adefinite feeling of form and structure as found in songs like Peruvian Skies, I Walk Beside You and As I Am. The fact is, no matter what the song or passage, everything exists for a reason. Whether worked out collectively or individually, whether derived from spontaneous inspiration or crafted deliberation, each drum fill, guitar solo, vocal melody, keyboard line and bass riff has a meaning and purpose. Being progressive could mean a 25 minute song, it could mean a ragtime piano breakdown sandwiched between two Mudvayne inspired 7-string riffs, never returning to the same verse form twice in a song arrangement or stretching the limitations of any given instrument’s normal role. Why? Why not??

Regarding BMS, I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I really do like how the ending they came up with after they pulled the middle section out of BMS. On the other hand, having first become familiar with BMS from the Fix for 96 shows, I missed the variation between the mellow and the heavy of the original version. And let's not forget that there was an initial mellow opening to the original version BMS that was perfectly in line with the mellow section that was later edited out. So it wasn't as if that mellow middle section (that later became part of HK) was just some random part thrown into the middle of the song - it was connecting with the original mellow opening of the song. And it could be said that the way it was written fell under the parameters that JP spoke about in that quote above before Kevin Shirley edited it. Makes me wonder what he would've done to ACoS and the songs on IaW had he been the producer - probably would've edited those songs down too.

[Kyo]

Yeah, I agree - the ending they later added to HK is great, but I never thought the mellow HK section felt out of place in BMS - I just think they shoud've developed a better transition to the keyboard solo. What remained of BMS without it was a dull, repetitive song whereas the original version was pretty damn good as a whole.

[DTA]

Is there anywhere to download a digital version of Burning My Soul ‘96? I’ve only heard it on YouTube but wouldn’t mind having my own copy.

[nobloodyname]

Is there anywhere to download a digital version of Burning My Soul ‘96? I’ve only heard it on YouTube but wouldn’t mind having my own copy.

It's included in the Falling Into Infinity Demos although I'm not sure they're available digitally (legally).

[dedSurroun]

The circus and wizard sound patches from Rudess single-handedly ruin most songs and prevents the DT songs where they appear from ever becoming great songs.

Those patches were outdated and vomit-inducing the moment Banks fiddled around with them in Genesis. They sound even triter when Rudess keeps playing them, over and over again.

Give it a rest. Stop ruining the songs. Come up with some more interesting patches. It's 2019.

[Samsara]

The circus and wizard sound patches from Rudess single-handedly ruin most songs and prevents the DT songs where they appear from ever becoming great songs.

Those patches were outdated and vomit-inducing the moment Banks fiddled around with them in Genesis. They sound even triter when Rudess keeps playing them, over and over again.

Give it a rest. Stop ruining the songs. Come up with some more interesting patches. It's 2019.

 

From your fingers to the Wizard's ears.

[Samsara]

You mention you liked Metropolis' wacky instrumental section, but hated it when they started doing it with other songs. The thing is, that style of writing is part of who they are. Not that they do it all the time, but it shouldn't be surprising that they take a left turn for some songs because that's exactly what they intended to do. JP himself commented about that in the Chaos in Motion tourbook:

At times DT’s music can seem a bit disconnected like during moments in Metropolis, The Dance of Eternity and The Dark Eternal Night. At other times there is adefinite feeling of form and structure as found in songs like Peruvian Skies, I Walk Beside You and As I Am. The fact is, no matter what the song or passage, everything exists for a reason. Whether worked out collectively or individually, whether derived from spontaneous inspiration or crafted deliberation, each drum fill, guitar solo, vocal melody, keyboard line and bass riff has a meaning and purpose. Being progressive could mean a 25 minute song, it could mean a ragtime piano breakdown sandwiched between two Mudvayne inspired 7-string riffs, never returning to the same verse form twice in a song arrangement or stretching the limitations of any given instrument’s normal role. Why? Why not??

That style of writing is who they are, sure. But it got a LOT worse (the sections deviating from the vibe of the song completely) once they started self-producing. I think Dream Theater's best music, for the most part, was when they had someone working with them to hone in things a bit. That's not to say I don't like that style in spurts. I just don't like hearing it all the time, and that was the direction they took following FII. I mean, "Endless Sacrifice" is the absolute perfect example. KILLER song, great chorus....and a five minute instrumental that could easily be 90 seconds and tie in with the vein of the tune. Ugh.

I get it, its part of who they are. And that's why, while I am a fan, Dream Theater will never be one of my absolute favorites, despite having a couple of albums (I&W, Awake) in my top-20 records of all time, and a bunch of songs I love (spread across their career, but generally ending after ToT).

[Samsara]

re: Anna Lee in your top 20, I wonder if you ever made a DT top 50 back when those threads were trendy! Not that I disagree, Anna Lee is fantastic, but you'd be surprised at how many things pop out of your top twenty when you remember a song you love even more than the previous one.

I never really did, no. But I do "star" as "favorites" tunes in iTunes by record. And while I don't have those starred tracks ordered by number, its one of them. On FII, it is fourth, behind Trial of Tears, Lines in the Sand, and Hell's Kitchen. So its probably right at that 20 mark overall, after a quick glance of all the other records (nothing post-Train of Thought is starred).

[MirrorMask]

I mean, "Endless Sacrifice" is the absolute perfect example. KILLER song, great chorus....and a five minute instrumental that could easily be 90 seconds and tie in with the vein of the tune. Ugh.

I feel you on this. The worst offender is the circus breakdown in the middle. Why oh why there is a circus moment in a song about the difficulties of being apart from your loved one? that's a spur of the moment thing that works well live, like the Simpsons theme in the middle of A Change of Seasons on Live Scenes from NY (which I love, so it's not that I'm on principle against wacky moments).

There is no need to have the Simpsons theme in the studio version of A Change of Seasons, and certainly there isn't a reason for a circus comedy moment in the middle of Endless Sacrifice... at least that I was able to find.

[rumborak]

Three words: Emerson Lake Palmer

ELP is probably JR's biggest influence, and those "circus" section were a mainstay in their music.

[Samsara]

Three words: Emerson Lake Palmer

ELP is probably JR's biggest influence, and those "circus" section were a mainstay in their music.

Bingo. Which is why I absolutely appreciate Jordan's talent, and he seems to be an all around great guy, I personally think his introduction into the band is the reason why DT never really had any staying power for me post-FII. I like SFAM-forward, but I LOVED I&W and Awake, and really liked the more Jon Lord-inspired playing of Derek in FII.

And I cast no ill-will toward Jordan. Talent-wise, he's by far and away the best keyboardist DT has ever had. But stylistically, I prefer Kev Mo by a landslide, and also prefer Derek. Different strokes for different folks.

I mean, "Endless Sacrifice" is the absolute perfect example. KILLER song, great chorus....and a five minute instrumental that could easily be 90 seconds and tie in with the vein of the tune. Ugh.

I feel you on this. The worst offender is the circus breakdown in the middle. Why oh why there is a circus moment in a song about the difficulties of being apart from your loved one? that's a spur of the moment thing that works well live, like the Simpsons theme in the middle of A Change of Seasons on Live Scenes from NY (which I love, so it's not that I'm on principle against wacky moments).

There is no need to have the Simpsons theme in the studio version of A Change of Seasons, and certainly there isn't a reason for a circus comedy moment in the middle of Endless Sacrifice... at least that I was able to find.

Yep, that's the whole thing. It's just ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong - I will always LIKE Dream Theater. I have always supported them, even post-ToT where I thought they had gone way off the rails (starting with Octavarium and some blatant rip-offs of other bands like Kansas). I've bought every record, gone to most tours. (I've seen them live 13x, I think.) But they never rose to the level of say like the original lineup of Queensryche, Fates Warning, etc., for me, because of some of the artistic decisions they have made. And that's OK. We all like different things.

[pg1067]

Like anything else, sometimes the extended instrumental forays "work," and sometimes they don't.  But yeah, opinions....

[rumborak]

I personally never minded those circus sections. Yes, they became a bit of a trope for JR, but frankly, DT can be quite tropey anyway (and if you don't agree, you can eat my ass and balls).

[mikeyd23]

I personally never minded those circus sections. Yes, they became a bit of a trope for JR, but frankly, DT can be quite tropey anyway (and if you don't agree, you can eat my ass and balls).

 

[Dedalus]

The Mikes change is nothing compared to JR's entry into the DT. Jordan's presence changed everything.

On extent instrument sections:Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I think in some moments they get lost, and only see a jam, without much commitment to songwriting (mainly at the end of the Portnoy phase). But the presence of these sections are part of who they are. You can't complain about it. It's like complaining that Behemoth is too much anti-religious. 

[CDrice]

While I understand the complaints of that circus/vaudeville in part in Endless Sacrifice and how it doesn't really fit the theme of the song, I've always enjoyed it a lot. Might be one of my favorite part of the song to be honest (I guess that's fairly controversial  )

[TAC]

While I understand the complaints of that circus/vaudeville in part in Endless Sacrifice and how it doesn't really fit the theme of the song, I've always enjoyed it a lot. Might be one of my favorite part of the song to be honest (I guess that's fairly controversial  )

I love it, and I think it makes the song. To me it highlights the frustrations of being away from home.