Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[erwinrafael]

See, I’ve never really considered DT “metal”, even though that’s how they always get marketed. To me, they’ve always been straight up progressive rock, and at times, progressive hard rock. None of their heaviest tunes strike me as metal, although I guess it depends which genre of metal you most commonly associate with the term “metal”. To me, heavy doesn’t automatically = metal. Some of Beethoven’s compositions are heavy as fuck in certain sections, but it ain’t metal. Steve Vai’s music is very heavy sometimes, but I’ve never, ever considered him to be a “metal” guitarist. Same goes for DT. And, quite frankly, I wish they weren’t marketed as metal, because in a way it dumbs them down a bit.

Why does it dumb them down?

DT is as heavy if not heavier than Iron Maiden. So I don't see how DT can not be considered metal.

[bl5150]

See, I’ve never really considered DT “metal”, even though that’s how they always get marketed. To me, they’ve always been straight up progressive rock, and at times, progressive hard rock. None of their heaviest tunes strike me as metal, although I guess it depends which genre of metal you most commonly associate with the term “metal”. To me, heavy doesn’t automatically = metal. Some of Beethoven’s compositions are heavy as fuck in certain sections, but it ain’t metal. Steve Vai’s music is very heavy sometimes, but I’ve never, ever considered him to be a “metal” guitarist. Same goes for DT. And, quite frankly, I wish they weren’t marketed as metal, because in a way it dumbs them down a bit.

Why does it dumb them down?

DT is as heavy if not heavier than Iron Maiden. So I don't see how DT can not be considered metal.

Ditto - from the minute I heard the opening riff to Pull Me Under they were metal in my mind. 

[Herrick]

See, I’ve never really considered DT “metal”, even though that’s how they always get marketed. To me, they’ve always been straight up progressive rock, and at times, progressive hard rock. None of their heaviest tunes strike me as metal, although I guess it depends which genre of metal you most commonly associate with the term “metal”. To me, heavy doesn’t automatically = metal. Some of Beethoven’s compositions are heavy as fuck in certain sections, but it ain’t metal. Steve Vai’s music is very heavy sometimes, but I’ve never, ever considered him to be a “metal” guitarist. Same goes for DT. And, quite frankly, I wish they weren’t marketed as metal, because in a way it dumbs them down a bit.

I've already thought exactly like that. However, they undeniably have strong metal characteristics. Because of this I said above that I consider them as a good example of a band that really mixes progressive with metal. Unlike a band like Periphery, it is in this trend to make a type of metal more complex and difficult as possible.

Yeah that's what is interesting about Dream Theater. They never really had a specific Metal Genre underlying their sound. They didn't start out as regular Heavy Metal, Thrash, Death, Power Metal etc.

[DoctorAction]

Whenever I have to describe DT to anyone, I refer to them as the Heavy Metal version of Yes.

I refer to them as a more progressive version of Europe. 

Yes! I love Europe. 

[Podaar]

See, I’ve never really considered DT “metal”, even though that’s how they always get marketed. To me, they’ve always been straight up progressive rock, and at times, progressive hard rock. None of their heaviest tunes strike me as metal, although I guess it depends which genre of metal you most commonly associate with the term “metal”. To me, heavy doesn’t automatically = metal. Some of Beethoven’s compositions are heavy as fuck in certain sections, but it ain’t metal. Steve Vai’s music is very heavy sometimes, but I’ve never, ever considered him to be a “metal” guitarist. Same goes for DT. And, quite frankly, I wish they weren’t marketed as metal, because in a way it dumbs them down a bit.

This is the most offensive post I've read in this most offensive of threads.































Beethoven is metal as fuck!!

[mikeyd23]

See, I’ve never really considered DT “metal”, even though that’s how they always get marketed. To me, they’ve always been straight up progressive rock, and at times, progressive hard rock. None of their heaviest tunes strike me as metal, although I guess it depends which genre of metal you most commonly associate with the term “metal”. To me, heavy doesn’t automatically = metal. Some of Beethoven’s compositions are heavy as fuck in certain sections, but it ain’t metal. Steve Vai’s music is very heavy sometimes, but I’ve never, ever considered him to be a “metal” guitarist. Same goes for DT. And, quite frankly, I wish they weren’t marketed as metal, because in a way it dumbs them down a bit.

Why does it dumb them down?

DT is as heavy if not heavier than Iron Maiden. So I don't see how DT can not be considered metal.

This exactly.

[rumborak]

Do people consider Iron Maiden metal? To me it's more hard rock.

[cramx3]

Do people consider Iron Maiden metal? To me it's more hard rock.

Yes, and Dream Theater are also metal. 

I agree Scotty. I think calling SC and BC&SL metal albums is lazy.

Sure but if you only had one term to describe DT and those albums what would it be?

I'd say "metal"  sure prog metal is correct but usng only one description I'd say they are more metal than prog although its really close and those songs certainly aren't "hard rock" in my mind.

[Stewie]

Do people consider Iron Maiden metal? To me it's more hard rock.

Exactly. Like I said, I guess it depends on which genre you most commonly associate with the term metal. For me, it’s the extremely heavy, extremely fast, extremely juvenile “we’re so angry and badass” stuff. So, while DT is heavy at times, I will never think of them as a “metal band”. I just can’t. They’ve got far too many mellow tunes and ballads to even begin to qualify as “metal”. I guess you could argue that some of their songs are metal, but I’d disagree, and say some of their songs are heavy, and more towards hard rock. Most metal bands that come to mind are pretty much very much the same, album to album, and every song on the album is metal. So, for this reason, I can’t classify DT as a metal band overall. Every time they get marketed as such, it’s always funny to me, because I instantly recall Anna Lee, Hollow Years, Another Day, etc. And then I’m like, okay I guess that one section in this or that song is heavy, but metal? No way. They are far too sophisticated as people and musicians to just be labeled “metal”. Gives them a bad image.

So there’s my controversial opinion

[jakepriest]

They are far too sophisticated as people and musicians to just be labeled “metal”. Gives them a bad image.

This is not controversial, just wrong. Literally calling all metal bands unsophisticated and juvenile.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

Do people consider Iron Maiden metal? To me it's more hard rock.

Exactly. Like I said, I guess it depends on which genre you most commonly associate with the term metal. For me, it’s the extremely heavy, extremely fast, extremely juvenile “we’re so angry and badass” stuff. So, while DT is heavy at times, I will never think of them as a “metal band”. I just can’t. They’ve got far too many mellow tunes and ballads to even begin to qualify as “metal”. I guess you could argue that some of their songs are metal, but I’d disagree, and say some of their songs are heavy, and more towards hard rock. Most metal bands that come to mind are pretty much very much the same, album to album, and every song on the album is metal. So, for this reason, I can’t classify DT as a metal band overall. Every time they get marketed as such, it’s always funny to me, because I instantly recall Anna Lee, Hollow Years, Another Day, etc. And then I’m like, okay I guess that one section in this or that song is heavy, but metal? No way. They are far too sophisticated as people and musicians to just be labeled “metal”. Gives them a bad image.

So there’s my controversial opinion

Not so much controversial as it is objectively false. Metal is an entire style of music that has countless subgenres to delineate its different sounds. That's why Iron Maiden and Between the Buried and Me can both be called "metal" bands.

The "extremely heavy, extremely fast" style lies in the more, well, extreme side of metal. Things like death metal, tech death, metalcore, even black metal to an extent. Meanwhile you have still heavy but slower styles like doom and stoner metal.

Which is why you can safely call a band like Dream Theater "progressive metal" because their songwriting is in line with progressive rock characteristics, but incorporating metal into the mix. I don't think they sound a awful lot like Yes in that regard. Of course not all of their songs are outright metal, but a good chunk of them are.

[Herrick]

DT is as heavy if not heavier than Iron Maiden. So I don't see how DT can not be considered metal.

For me it isn't just about how heavy the overall sound is. Nirvana & Rage Against The Machine were heavier than Iron Maiden. I think the riffing style has a lot to do with what makes Metal. Metropolis Part I isn't a particularly heavy-sounding song but the guitar, bass, & drum rhythm where LaBrie starts singing is totally fucking metal.

[cygnusx1jg]

Metal, rock, progressive metal, progressive rock, etc. Could someone please explain to me why it really matters how a group or type of music is labeled/categorized?

[jakepriest]

Metal, rock, progressive metal, progressive rock, etc. Could someone please explain to me why it really matters how a group or type of music is labeled/categorized?

Well generally it helps people discover new bands that they might like. If I heard that a group was doing experimental jazz I definitely wouldn't touch their albums for example.

[cygnusx1jg]

That makes sense. Let me state the question better: Why do people argue/discuss (sometimes vehemently) if a particular group/song should be considered one category over another? Seems like a futile effort.

[Dedalus]

Metal, rock, progressive metal, progressive rock, etc. Could someone please explain to me why it really matters how a group or type of music is labeled/categorized?

Well generally it helps people discover new bands that they might like. If I heard that a group was doing experimental jazz I definitely wouldn't touch their albums for example.

It usually helps, but it can also be a problem.

Today it is practically impossible to separate bands of prog metal and djent, only by the labels. In recent years, I've been filtering new bands attached with the "prog metal" label so many times, and about eighty percent were bands with the most modern Djent sound.

I understand the relationship of the two labels and I understand that they are often placed in the same box. But for me it is no longer useful, because I just do not listen to any new bands that I see labeled Prog Metal since I'm not interested in Djent.

[jakepriest]

Well tbh there is nothing really progressive about most modern djent bands. They are glorified metalcore bands with polyrhythmic chugging.

[bl5150]

I understand the relationship of the two labels and I understand that they are often placed in the same box. But for me it is no longer useful, because I just do not listen to any new bands that I see labeled Prog Metal since I'm not interested in Djent.

I can relate to that.  Sampling everything labelled prog-metal these days is very dangerous if you don't want to be djentrified.

[gzarruk]

Well tbh there is nothing really progressive about most modern djent bands. They are glorified metalcore bands with polyrhythmic chugging.

Preach.

[rumborak]

Well tbh there is nothing really progressive about most modern djent bands. They are glorified metalcore bands with polyrhythmic chugging.

Well, most prog bands aren't progressive really. For a lot of those bands the label "prog" is more a description of stylistic choices (instrumentation, a few odd meters etc).

[Adami]

Because prog has come to simply mean odd time signatures, complex rhythms, lots of notes.

[rumborak]

I guess to some degree that happens to every genre once it starts getting established. Punk music had originally more a socioeconomic definition, whereas these days it means dual-guitar power chords that go mostly in IV or V transitions, and strict 4/4.

[Dream Team]

They are far too sophisticated as people and musicians to just be labeled “metal”. Gives them a bad image.

This is not controversial, just wrong. Literally calling all metal bands unsophisticated and juvenile.

+1000

[Samsara]

Here's one that will no doubt have the majority disagreeing with.

Anna Lee is a top-20 song in Dream Theater's catalog.

There is so much to love in a song that has such a simple instrumentation. John's playing (lap steel, if I am not mistaken -- guitarists correct me) is just FULL of soul, Derek paints such an emotional landscape with his opening chords and throughout that song, and James singing is simply beautiful. And it is one of the few times when I hear Portnoy playing a very slow song, that he's not overplaying. He provided the absolute perfect percussion to the tune.

I know its not something typical for Dream Theater to do. Something simplistic like this. (Although they have similar simplistic songs, they are more rare, obviously). But its so incredibly emotional, and a high point, at least for me, in their huge catalog of tunes. Sometimes, less is more. They nailed that on this one.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Couldn't disagree more, but it's interesting to see your perspective.

[Adami]

Here's one that will no doubt have the majority disagreeing with.

Anna Lee is a top-20 song in Dream Theater's catalog.

There is so much to love in a song that has such a simple instrumentation. John's playing (lap steel, if I am not mistaken -- guitarists correct me) is just FULL of soul, Derek paints such an emotional landscape with his opening chords and throughout that song, and James singing is simply beautiful. And it is one of the few times when I hear Portnoy playing a very slow song, that he's not overplaying. He provided the absolute perfect percussion to the tune.

I know its not something typical for Dream Theater to do. Something simplistic like this. (Although they have similar simplistic songs, they are more rare, obviously). But its so incredibly emotional, and a high point, at least for me, in their huge catalog of tunes. Sometimes, less is more. They nailed that on this one.

I love Anna Lee. Beautiful song.

But I don't think he's playing a lapsteel. Pretty sure it's just a slide on a normal guitar.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

Well tbh there is nothing really progressive about most modern djent bands. They are glorified metalcore bands with polyrhythmic chugging.

Well, most prog bands aren't progressive really. For a lot of those bands the label "prog" is more a description of stylistic choices (instrumentation, a few odd meters etc).

To me, the term prog moreso refers to the attitude you have about the music you make. Like take Coheed & Cambria for example. Yeah, some of their stuff can be complicated, but to me what makes them prog is that they're a concept band lyrically (with the exception of The Color Before The Sun), and they have recurring melodies and themes that span across not only individual albums but across all of their albums. It's music, which is art, but then it's taken to a whole other artistic level.

[TAC]

Anna Lee is a top-20 song in Dream Theater's catalog.

Have you only heard 20 Dream Theater songs?


It sounds way too forced, and to me it's nothing more than a B side, as is most of that album.

But glad you like it and it moves you. I like Prophets Of War!

[IDontNotDoThings]

Oh, here's a controversial opinion: I think the label restructuring the songs on FII was mostly a good thing. With the exception of TAMP, I prefer every album track to its demo version (even YNM).

In fact, I also prefer the radio edits of the three singles to the album versions. I enjoy how much catchier they feel in their shorter form.

[TAC]

Yeah, but they just weren't working with great material to begin with.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Yeah, but they just weren't working with great material to begin with.

I agree with that much. The album itself is still very lackluster.

[Dedalus]

Oh, here's a controversial opinion: I think the label restructuring the songs on FII was mostly a good thing. With the exception of TAMP, I prefer every album track to its demo version (even YNM).

In fact, I also prefer the radio edits of the three singles to the album versions. I enjoy how much catchier they feel in their shorter form.

It is worth mentioning that only BMS, TAMP and YOM have had more radical changes. I think label was right to remove Hell's Kitchen from BMS, but what's left of the song is even worse than the demo version, which is bad enough. I prefer YOM than YNM. TAMP is a gross mistake by Kevin Shirley.

Hollow Years had had a considerable change. It did not make much difference to me.

LITS and Anna Lee with subtle changes. Small cuts on the first, different arrangement on the second.

NM, JLMB, PS and TOT practically did not change anything.

For me the worst thing was that they cut songs better than some of those on the album. I really like all the excluded songs.

[bosk1]

Here's one that will no doubt have the majority disagreeing with.

Anna Lee is a top-20 song in Dream Theater's catalog.

There is so much to love in a song that has such a simple instrumentation. John's playing (lap steel, if I am not mistaken -- guitarists correct me) is just FULL of soul, Derek paints such an emotional landscape with his opening chords and throughout that song, and James singing is simply beautiful. And it is one of the few times when I hear Portnoy playing a very slow song, that he's not overplaying. He provided the absolute perfect percussion to the tune.

I know its not something typical for Dream Theater to do. Something simplistic like this. (Although they have similar simplistic songs, they are more rare, obviously). But its so incredibly emotional, and a high point, at least for me, in their huge catalog of tunes. Sometimes, less is more. They nailed that on this one.

I'll just ignore the "top-20" part of your post and say that it's a wonderful song that I like a lot.  That way, it can feel like I'm agreeing with you.

[SeRoX]

I would say the same thing for Disappear. Magical, touching, deep.

[Chino]

Anna Lee is such a hidden gem.