Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[The Curious Orange]

Probably some have (partially) been said before, but:

OK, I'll bite: 

-I find WDADU to be a better album (lyrically and musically) than SFAM, which is in the bottom 4 fav. albums for me.

That's a bold statement. I think WDADU is an overlooked album, it's certainly better than it gets credit for, but SFAM is a top-tier DT album for me, and WDADU kind of... isn't. 

-I find SFAM incredibly overrated as a concept album ("best concept album ever" claims make no sense to me)

Yeah, it's certainly not the best concept album ever, but it is a serious effort.

-I don't like the Metal albums (BC&SL, TOT and SC) as much as the other albums

I actually agree with this. I'd rather have metal songs or songs with a metal section on a diverse album than an entire metal album. I've never really thought of SC as a metal album, mind.

-About BC&SL, TCOT is in my top 3 DT songs, specially the Happy Holidays version

I also love that song. It's stunning. 

-TA is my 3rd favourite album by DT, after Awake and I&W

Yeah, people either love it or hate it. Personally I hate it, but I can see why others love it, and I respect your opinion. 

-OK, this is the most heavily loaded one: I don't think that Mike Portnoy is a good drummer. He's influential, and I respect that, and he added cool things to the songs (and some really bad things), but, he tends to overplay everything, and add the same fills whenever there's a chance; that's cool the first three times, then it becomes tiresome. Some people like that, and fine, but I just... don't.

I've said this before - MP was a great drummer when the band started. One of the best. But he got lazy, especially by the time of his last 2 albums, and his drumming went from being exciting and fresh to being often sloppy, uninspired and boring to listen to. Plus, of course, younger and better drummers came up and he just failed to raise his game. I just wish the band had employed MM to play drums and kept MP on in a management role to deal with the fans. 

-Petrucci and Portnoy aren't good producers. Petrucci makes everything loud and muddy, and Portnoy made everything LOUD and dry.

Kind of agree, but as I've said before, this "everything louder than everything else" thing is a plague on modern music, and not just restricted to DT. Given the nature of their music and their fanbase, I do wish we could get a proper audiophile production out of the band. TA was actually the closest they've come, despite the fact I don't like that album, the production is first rate.

[EPIC Outro]

Not sure if anyone else has shared this potentially controversial oppinion before, but I think Train of Thought is a drop-dead masterpeice, and as important to DT's catalogue as anything written before it.

[KevShmev]

Not sure if anyone else has shared this potentially controversial oppinion before, but I think Train of Thought is a drop-dead masterpeice, and as important to DT's catalogue as anything written before it.

If you think Train of Thought is a masterpiece, more power to ya, but when it comes to what DT albums are the most important, I think it is impossible to argue that I&W and Scenes aren't their most important albums by a wide distance.

[rab7]

Not sure if anyone else has shared this potentially controversial oppinion before, but I think Train of Thought is a drop-dead masterpeice, and as important to DT's catalogue as anything written before it.

If you think Train of Thought is a masterpiece, more power to ya, but when it comes to what DT albums are the most important, I think it is impossible to argue that I&W and Scenes aren't their most important albums by a wide distance.

I don't think he's arguing against that. I think he's saying that TOT is just as important as I&W and Scenes.

[KevShmev]

Not sure if anyone else has shared this potentially controversial oppinion before, but I think Train of Thought is a drop-dead masterpeice, and as important to DT's catalogue as anything written before it.

If you think Train of Thought is a masterpiece, more power to ya, but when it comes to what DT albums are the most important, I think it is impossible to argue that I&W and Scenes aren't their most important albums by a wide distance.

I don't think he's arguing against that. I think he's saying that TOT is just as important as I&W and Scenes.

Right, and I don't think that argument can successfully be made.  There is simply no way ToT was as important to the band as I&W and Scenes when you consider what those two albums did for the band.

[rab7]

Not sure if anyone else has shared this potentially controversial oppinion before, but I think Train of Thought is a drop-dead masterpeice, and as important to DT's catalogue as anything written before it.

If you think Train of Thought is a masterpiece, more power to ya, but when it comes to what DT albums are the most important, I think it is impossible to argue that I&W and Scenes aren't their most important albums by a wide distance.

I don't think he's arguing against that. I think he's saying that TOT is just as important as I&W and Scenes.

when you consider what those two albums did for the band.

Not arguing for or against, but I think TOT brought a lot of fans that are really into the heavier side of metal, which influenced their decision to make much heavier tracks later on in the discography. Some people say that Portnoy was trying to steer the band too much to the heavier side, and I think this started because of TOT.

[pg1067]

I just wish the band had employed MM to play drums and kept MP on in a management role to deal with the fans.

LOL!  Hard to imagine how big of a train wreck that would have been.

[EPIC Outro]

Not sure if anyone else has shared this potentially controversial oppinion before, but I think Train of Thought is a drop-dead masterpeice, and as important to DT's catalogue as anything written before it.

If you think Train of Thought is a masterpiece, more power to ya, but when it comes to what DT albums are the most important, I think it is impossible to argue that I&W and Scenes aren't their most important albums by a wide distance.

I don't think he's arguing against that. I think he's saying that TOT is just as important as I&W and Scenes.

Exactly. I would never argue that TOT was more important than Images or Scenes, but I think its lasting impact on their sound is just as significant. The modern metal side of DT was born with TOT and it has been, with some few exceptions, a major part of their sound ever since.

[KevShmev]

The Glass Prison down??

[King Postwhore]

The Glass Prison down??

Yeah, The Glass Prison is the catalyst to their metal side.

[Dedalus]

EPIC outro is right. TOT wasn't more important to the band than I&W or SFAM, but the album really opened precedents, brought in a lot of fans and "changed everything" in a way. I'm not a big fan of this legacy, but I can't deny it.

The Glass Prison down??

TOT is a kind of enlargement of the vibe and musical ideias of TGP.

[EPIC Outro]

EPIC outro is right. TOT wasn't more important to the band than I&W or SFAM, but the album really opened precedents, brought in a lot of fans and "changed everything" in a way. I'm not a big fan of this legacy, but I can't deny it.

The Glass Prison down??

TOT is a kind of enlargement of the vibe and musical ideias of TGP.

If The Glass Prison was a preview of things to come, than Train of Thought was pretty much Glass Prison: The Album lol.

But you are right. TGP was definitely the start of that new heaviness, but TOT took it to the max.

[cramx3]

Yea SDOIT was more experimental including that super heavy TGP, but TOT took that and made all the songs super heavy (minus the ballad of course). 

[Setlist Scotty]

-I don't like the Metal albums (BC&SL, TOT and SC) as much as the other albums

I actually agree with this. I'd rather have metal songs or songs with a metal section on a diverse album than an entire metal album. I've never really thought of SC as a metal album, mind.

This isn't directed so much at you, Orange, but the more I think about it, the more I don't think BCaSL dserves to be lumped into the "metal album" category. I mean, yeah, ANtR, ARoP and TSF are (in general) metal songs, but Wither, TBoT and TCoT most certainly are not anymore metal than anything from SFaM on back - that's half the album. And even ANtR has some really beautiful, mellow parts. I mean, I get that BCaSL was more or less a continuation of SC in terms of general sound, but I would say it's decidedly less metal.

[TAC]

I agree Scotty. I think calling SC and BC&SL metal albums is lazy.

[bosk1]

And even ANtR has some really beautiful, mellow parts.

Well, yeah.  But so do a lot of METAL songs.  It isn't any less "metal" just because it has a part that is beautiful, mellow, or soft.  I think sometimes we get too hung up on trying to make things fit into neat boxes and divide things up.  DT has always been a metal band.  Yes, they do ballads.  And, yes, they have parts in most of their songs that are beautiful, mellow, or soft.  But it seems strange to me to try and classify them as not metal because of that.

[Ninjabait]

And even ANtR has some really beautiful, mellow parts.

Well, yeah.  But so do a lot of METAL songs.  It isn't any less "metal" just because it has a part that is beautiful, mellow, or soft.

Case in point: pre-Heritage Opeth. Sometimes the mellow stuff makes it MORE metal

[Setlist Scotty]

And even ANtR has some really beautiful, mellow parts.

Well, yeah.  But so do a lot of METAL songs.  It isn't any less "metal" just because it has a part that is beautiful, mellow, or soft.  I think sometimes we get too hung up on trying to make things fit into neat boxes and divide things up.  DT has always been a metal band.  Yes, they do ballads.  And, yes, they have parts in most of their songs that are beautiful, mellow, or soft.  But it seems strange to me to try and classify them as not metal because of that.

Right - but you're ignoring the rest of my post, that points out half of the album is not metal in the sense of say most of Train of Thought or stuff like Constant Motion and TDEN. The detail about ANtR just reinforces my point about why I don't think BCaSL should be labeled as a "metal album" in the same sense as ToT, or to a lesser degree, SC.

[erwinrafael]

Isn't TCoT metal?

[Setlist Scotty]

Isn't TCoT metal?

Not any more than anything pre-ToT.

[pg1067]

I think you'd have a hard time convincing me that any pre-TA song by DT (limited to official releases) isn't "metal."  Only the degree of heaviness changes.

[Adami]

I think you'd have a hard time convincing me that any pre-TA song by DT (limited to official releases) isn't "metal."  Only the degree of heaviness changes.

lol plenty of their songs aren't metal. Anna Lee isn't metal. Through her Eyes isn't metal. Etc. Etc.

[DoctorAction]

There are frustratingly few terms to describe different flavours of metal, somehow. This is surprising to me given how many well-understood sub-genres there are.

But DT are a metal band and always have been, however varied their style can be.

TOT, SC and BCSL all show the band often aiming for a slightly different flavour of metal than previously, tho. Heavier? Probably a little. More abrasive? Yeah, a bit. More straight-faced? Definitely.

I've said it before and will say it again. It didn't suit them and sounded like they were trying way too hard to sound tough/hard/edgy/street/real/whatever, imo.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful because I love the band but it wasn't a good look on them. I'm so delighted that phase ended with MPs departure.

[Dedalus]

I think this discussion can generate some very interesting questions.

Is Prog metal (the genre)  effectively a mix of heavy metal and progressive rock? Or merely a kind of metal that incorporated elements of progressive rock? ( like "neoclassical metal", which clearly incorporated elements of classical music, but is far from actually being a real blend of the two universes).

I think some bands are metal bands with some progressive influences (Symphony X). Others are bands that firmly follow the "style" of the subgenre Prog Metal, with all the clichés (most of the more current bands). And a few are actually able to make music that truly combines progressive elements with metal. Dream Theater between them.

I say this because I think most of Prog Metal is merely a sub style of heavy metal. Far from progressive rock (and it's easy to see that a large portion of prog metal audiences do not listen to prog rock, which may be a clue). Also, I think some bands like DT or Pain of Salvation can not be merely heavy metal bands with progressive influence. They are more than that.

I do not know if it was clear what I meant. I do not know if it's clear enough for me lol.

[bosk1]

Is Prog metal (the genre)  effectively a mix of heavy metal and progressive rock? Or merely a kind of metal that incorporated elements of progressive rock?

Yes.

[CDrice]

Isn't TCoT metal?

Not any more than anything pre-ToT.

There's definitely a decent part of it that I'd say is metal, but that part is only 6 or 7 minutes long (which still makes it long enough to be a song by itself) but it also make it only a third out of the full 19 minutes song. So is it a metal song if 2/3 of it aren't really metal?

[TAC]

Whenever I have to describe DT to anyone, I refer to them as the Heavy Metal version of Yes.

[pg1067]

Whenever I have to describe DT to anyone, I refer to them as the Heavy Metal version of Yes.

And then, they respond with "Who?" and you say, "No, Yes," and they say, "well, which is it?!"  Hilarity ensues....

[TAC]

Whenever I have to describe DT to anyone, I refer to them as the Heavy Metal version of Yes.

And then, they respond with "Who?" and you say, "No, Yes," and they say, "well, which is it?!"  Hilarity ensues....

[erwinrafael]

While we are discussing prog, this podcast with JP and JR on their Top 5 prog instrumentals is a good listen:

https://youtu.be/99SyXvRWiCg

JP sort of considers MoP era Metallica as prog. :-)

[Setlist Scotty]

JP sort of considers MoP era Metallica as prog. :-)

To a degree I can see that, but I'd say that genre description is more fitting for AJFA.

[KevShmev]

Whenever I have to describe DT to anyone, I refer to them as the Heavy Metal version of Yes.

I refer to them as a more progressive version of Europe. 

[Stewie]

See, I’ve never really considered DT “metal”, even though that’s how they always get marketed. To me, they’ve always been straight up progressive rock, and at times, progressive hard rock. None of their heaviest tunes strike me as metal, although I guess it depends which genre of metal you most commonly associate with the term “metal”. To me, heavy doesn’t automatically = metal. Some of Beethoven’s compositions are heavy as fuck in certain sections, but it ain’t metal. Steve Vai’s music is very heavy sometimes, but I’ve never, ever considered him to be a “metal” guitarist. Same goes for DT. And, quite frankly, I wish they weren’t marketed as metal, because in a way it dumbs them down a bit.

[ReaPsTA]

JP sort of considers MoP era Metallica as prog. :-)

To a degree I can see that, but I'd say that genre description is more fitting for AJFA.

Yeah definitely.

[Dedalus]

See, I’ve never really considered DT “metal”, even though that’s how they always get marketed. To me, they’ve always been straight up progressive rock, and at times, progressive hard rock. None of their heaviest tunes strike me as metal, although I guess it depends which genre of metal you most commonly associate with the term “metal”. To me, heavy doesn’t automatically = metal. Some of Beethoven’s compositions are heavy as fuck in certain sections, but it ain’t metal. Steve Vai’s music is very heavy sometimes, but I’ve never, ever considered him to be a “metal” guitarist. Same goes for DT. And, quite frankly, I wish they weren’t marketed as metal, because in a way it dumbs them down a bit.

I've already thought exactly like that. However, they undeniably have strong metal characteristics. Because of this I said above that I consider them as a good example of a band that really mixes progressive with metal. Unlike a band like Periphery, it is in this trend to make a type of metal more complex and difficult as possible.