Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[nikatapi]

Can we just agree that BC&SL has probably some of the worst lyrics in DT history?

[bosk1]

Can we just agree that BC&SL has probably some of the worst lyrics in DT history?

No

[mikeyd23]

Can we just agree that BC&SL has probably some of the worst lyrics in DT history?

Yeah I'd say it's probably one of their weaker albums lyrically.

[ReaperKK]

I don’t think I agree that bc&sl has the worst lyrics. Dt has had good to terrible lyrics all throughout their catalog.

[gzarruk]

There's a post on MP's forum from around the time of the album where he discusses how the band approached that section. Initially, he did record growls on that part, but the rest of the band basically felt that doing full growls would be going too far for the fanbase. So they tried two compromise options to give the song the aggression MP thought it needed without going to the all-out growled section that the rest of the band opposed. One of the options was a counterpoint section with JLB's cleans layered over MP's growls. The other was to use what Mike calls the tough guy voice, which is what ended up being used.

Which was a bad decision. I don't see how a section that lasts 20, 30 seconds would be "going too far" for the fanbase. How many songs they recorded before that? I don't see the harm in doing some death growls in 20 seconds of a single song. They should have invited someone to do it though.

IIRC Mike wanted Mikael Akerfeldt to do the growls on the song originally, but decided to try himself since he would end up doing them every night on tour.

[RodrigoAltaf]

I don’t think I agree that bc&sl has the worst lyrics. Dt has had good to terrible lyrics all throughout their catalog.

True. But A Nightmare to Remember and Count of Tuscany are REALLY bad, there's a song about writer's block, and there isn't a redeeming moment on the album where you go "oh yeah, THIS time they nailed it". So I think I agree that BCSL is their worst from a lyrical standpoint.

[MirrorMask]

Actually I think Wither has quite good lyrics.

It's also funny how the mellow part of Nightmare has the greatest lyrics of the song. We go from "the uninvited stranger started dancing on his own" to:

Hopelessly drifting
Bathing in beautiful agony
I am endlessly falling
Lost in this wonderful misery

In peaceful sedation I lay half awake
And thought of the panic inside starts to fade

Come on, this is great.

[nikatapi]

Yeah i actually quite like Wither.
Apart from this song, i find lyrics on this album ranging from mediocre to embarassing to be honest.

TCOT is one of the most interesting things DT have done musically, but lyrically is definitely a low point:

Now let me introduce
My brother
A bitter gentleman - historian
Sucking on his pipe
Distinguished accent
Making me uptight - no accident

[IDontNotDoThings]

Controversial opinion: DT's lyrics took a nosedive around SFAM. There are still flashes of brilliance here & there, but they lost that kind of wonder & mysticism from the first four (arguably three) albums' lyrics. The lyrics since then have always seemed too literal/direct for me.

Granted, I don't hold lyrics to any importance (I only really care about music tbh), but if I did, I'd be sorely missing something from the later DT releases.

DT12 is the biggest exception to that though

[Max Kuehnau]

Controversial opinion: DT's lyrics took a nosedive around SFAM. There are still flashes of brilliance here & there, but they lost that kind of wonder & mysticism from the first four (arguably three) albums' lyrics. The lyrics since then have always seemed too literal/direct for me.

Granted, I don't hold lyrics to any importance (I only really care about music tbh), but if I did, I'd be sorely missing something from the later DT releases.

DT12 is the biggest exception to that though

Dramatic Turn as well (largely anyway)

[bosk1]

I have no idea why a couple of you think the lyrics on ANTR and TCOT are somehow "bad." 

[nattmorker]

I love the lyrics to Wither, they are general enough for me. I've always felt they described the feelings i've had writing my master's and, now, my PHD thesis, It's a mentally tough process!

[bosk1]

This discussion just made me listen to the entire album for the first time in awhile.  I have to say that while it still ranks near the bottom of the DT discography for me, that is only a testament to how strong the DT discography is.  Despite some flaws, this is a really solid album.  Great music.  Great lyrics.  Excellent (but strange) album concept.  It gets a from me for every aspect.

[Max Kuehnau]

I have no idea why a couple of you think the lyrics on ANTR and TCOT are somehow "bad." 

I never said they are bad (I never will and I'm not one to judge that). They represent what the lyricist(s) have gone through at that moment (on BC/SL anyway and some others as well I'm sure) and that's that for me. Nothing more or less. Some people will like certain lyrics and some won't.

[Willthescout7]

BC&SL is the album that turned me into a dream theater fan. It completely blew me away since I had never heard anything like it. While I can intellectually agree that it is not their best, it remains my favorite and the album I turn to the most often.

[KevShmev]

I agree that the lyrics to Wither and the Beautiful Agony of A Nightmare to Remember are both pretty good, but the rest of the album is a total miss when it comes to lyrics. The Count of Tuscany is such a great song musically, but is one of the few DT songs where the mediocre lyrics really bring it down a few notches for me.  The Shattered Fortress' lyrics, much like the music, seem like both a total rehash of the prior 12-step songs and total cliches. Finally, while the sentiment of The Best of Times is obviously something everyone can get on board with, the actual lyrics aren't very good.

[ToT-147]

Can we just agree that BC&SL has probably some of the worst lyrics in DT history?

No

This.. First of all because the words "worst" and "DT" don't belong together.. But yeah, I think BC&SL has actually very good lyrics from start to finish..

BC&SL is the album that turned me into a dream theater fan. It completely blew me away since I had never heard anything like it. While I can intellectually agree that it is not their best, it remains my favorite and the album I turn to the most often.

I'm not sure what you mean by "intellectually".. The best album of a band is always the album you think is the best from that band.. Now, the concept of "general opinion" is something totally different..

[Willthescout7]

BC&SL is the album that turned me into a dream theater fan. It completely blew me away since I had never heard anything like it. While I can intellectually agree that it is not their best, it remains my favorite and the album I turn to the most often.

I'm not sure what you mean by "intellectually".. The best album of a band is always the album you think is the best from that band.. Now, the concept of "general opinion" is something totally different..

[/quote]
I say this because critically it is not their best. I can listen to SFAM and see that it's a tighter album with better lyrics. Critically, I can hear and tell it's flaws, but because of it's personal attachment to me, I don't care. It's like how The Empire Strikes back is structurely the best Star Wars, but my favorite is Revenge of the Sith.

[gzarruk]

Similar case here. I think SDOIT is their best album (so far), but I like SFAM more because it was my first DT album and I have a deeper connection with it.

[ToT-147]

How can you think is not their best album when you think is their best album?..

[dream75]

For me BCSL is one of the worst 😑

[Willthescout7]

How can you think is not their best album when you think is their best album?..

I never said it was their best. I merely said it was my favorite.

[ToT-147]

How can you think is not their best album when you think is their best album?..

I never said it was their best. I merely said it was my favorite.

But who says it's their best?..

[Willthescout7]

How can you think is not their best album when you think is their best album?..

I never said it was their best. I merely said it was my favorite.

But who says it's their best?..

You're putting words in my mouth. Again, I never said it was their best, and I never said anybody thinks it's their best (though I am sure someone on this forum thinks so). To me, there is a clear difference between "best" and "favorite". BC&SL is my favorite Dream Theater album, but I will argue that Awake is their best (I know, real original).

[ToT-147]

You're putting words in my mouth. Again, I never said it was their best, and I never said anybody thinks it's their best (though I am sure someone on this forum thinks so). To me, there is a clear difference between "best" and "favorite". BC&SL is my favorite Dream Theater album, but I will argue that Awake is their best (I know, real original).

I'm not talking about you saying BC&SL is your favorite, I'm talking about you saying that another album is their best (I deduce is SFAM for you) even when you like more another album..

Anyways, my first question was more directed to gzarruk who did say that he thinks SDoIT is their best, but he likes SFAM more.. From your comments, I thought you were saying the same only that with different albums..

[gzarruk]

Anyways, my first question was more directed to gzarruk who did say that he thinks SDoIT is their best, but he likes SFAM more.. From your comments, I thought you were saying the same only that with different albums..

I didn't know you were asking me, so didn't answer. Similar to what Willthescout7 says, there's a difference between what I think is their best album and my personal favorite.

To me, SDOIT is their best album, but my connection to SFAM is stronger because it was my first DT album. I think the writing, performing, sound and direction for SDOIT make it the ultimate DT album and they haven't been able to top it yet (again, in my opinion), but SFAM remains my favorite because it was the one that introduced me to prog and DT.

Hope it makes sense.

[SeRoX]

If WDADU had released today with James and better production it would've placed top 5 in DT's fanbase. Not just James and production factor. It has great lyrics and flow.

[ToT-147]

Anyways, my first question was more directed to gzarruk who did say that he thinks SDoIT is their best, but he likes SFAM more.. From your comments, I thought you were saying the same only that with different albums..

I didn't know you were asking me, so didn't answer. Similar to what Willthescout7 says, there's a difference between what I think is their best album and my personal favorite.

To me, SDOIT is their best album, but my connection to SFAM is stronger because it was my first DT album. I think the writing, performing, sound and direction for SDOIT make it the ultimate DT album and they haven't been able to top it yet (again, in my opinion), but SFAM remains my favorite because it was the one that introduced me to prog and DT.

Hope it makes sense.

I guess to each their own.. But no, sorry, for me it doesn't.. 

In my case, I feel ToT is their best, precisely because is my favorite, and is my favorite because is the one I love the most, in almost every aspect (writing, performing, concept, general vibe, etc)... I don't think there was a specific album through which I was introduced to them though, so in that we have different points of view already..

[mikeyd23]

If WDADU had released today with James and better production it would've placed top 5 in DT's fanbase. Not just James and production factor. It has great lyrics and flow.

That's interesting, not sure it would be in my top 5, but it would be waaaaay higher than I currently rank it, that's for sure.

[TAC]

If WDADU had released today with James and better production it would've placed top 5 in DT's fanbase. Not just James and production factor. It has great lyrics and flow.

I'm with you totally. It's Top 5 for me. Not WDADU Proper per se, but definitely the collection of songs as a whole. My go-to is WDADRu.

[cramx3]

I wouldn't put it in top 5 at all, but it would probably take over FII and SC.  WDADRU is where it's at so we kind of already have this and if I use this to compare to the rest of the albums in place of WDADU, it's still pretty close to the bottom, but not at the bottom as it is now.

[cygnusx1jg]

MCO: Breaking All Illusions is in my top 3 overall favorite DT songs and I don't think the boys have or will create a song from this point on that I will love as much. I hope I'm wrong, of course.

[ToT-147]

MCO: Breaking All Illusions is in my top 3 overall favorite DT songs and I don't think the boys have or will create a song from this point on that I will love as much. I hope I'm wrong, of course.

Judging by all opinions I've seen/heard so far since BAI came out, I don't think having it in the top 3 would be controversial at all..

Having TDoE in your top 3, like the guy who writes, might be consider as controversial , but someone correct me if I'm wrong, BAI is the most classic/popular DT track of the last 12 years...

[pg1067]

Judging by all opinions I've seen/heard so far since BAI came out, I don't think having it in the top 3 would be controversial at all..

Having TDoE in your top 3, like the guy who writes, might be consider as controversial , but someone correct me if I'm wrong, BAI is the most classic/popular DT track of the last 12 years...

I've seen more than one person express the opinion that BAI is their favorite song of the Mangini era, but "of the last 12 years" takes us back through Systematic Chaos, which potentially raises the "MP versus MM" issue.  Personally, I have BAI at either #1 or #2 for Mangini era songs (the only possible alternative being "Illumination Theory"), and I would extend that to include SC and BC&SL, but I think there are some folks who would rank ITPOE and/or TCOT higher than BAI.  But I agree that having BAI in one's top 3 isn't particularly controversial.

[bosk1]

Yeah, not controversial at all.  I mean, for me personally, it is among my least favorite songs on ADTOE and DT12 combined (I really find it hard to rank individual songs on TA because it is such a unified work and the songs, individually, are so different from "traditional" DT).  But I know I am WAY in the minority on that one.