Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 979332 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Max Kuehnau

  • Emotionless Brainiac
  • Posts: 2447
  • Gender: Male
  • Doomed to be a man this world forgot
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8505 on: October 13, 2018, 01:08:42 AM »
Indeed, that's the only issue with the song... starting heavy and then going into the Beautiful Agony part is perfect and works quite well. It's what comes after that feels disjointed and "We have to make this song 16 minutes long".
including the death growl section
"All my natural instincts are begging me to stop
But somehow I carry on, heading for the top
A physical absurdity, a tremendous mental game
Helping me understand exactly who I am"

Offline Evai

  • Posts: 497
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8506 on: October 13, 2018, 10:03:39 AM »
Indeed, that's the only issue with the song... starting heavy and then going into the Beautiful Agony part is perfect and works quite well. It's what comes after that feels disjointed and "We have to make this song 16 minutes long".
including the death growl section

Aka probably the highlight of modern DT. Second only to that one part in The Astonishing (there was an instrumental section that gives me goosebumps... Somewhere quite late in the album, I think?)
Jordan took Moore's boring, pedestrian parts and elevated them considerably to take them from barely palatable to stellar.

Offline DTA

  • Posts: 2456
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8507 on: October 13, 2018, 10:16:44 AM »
Not to beat this dead horse, but I'm so glad the obsession with long songs that plagued DT from 2002-2009 is over. So many great songs bogged down in unnecessary repetition and padding. Nightmare, Rite Of Passage, and Best Of Times are probably the worst offenders. Nightmare could've been a really awesome 10 minute song without all the extra bullshit at the end and the growling part is the most embarrassing thing I've ever heard in a DT song (aside from the sex sounds in Home and weird crying in Losing Faythe).

Offline LCArenas

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2511
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8508 on: October 13, 2018, 07:58:01 PM »
Not to beat this dead horse, but I'm so glad the obsession with long songs that plagued DT from 2002-2009 is over. So many great songs bogged down in unnecessary repetition and padding. Nightmare, Rite Of Passage, and Best Of Times are probably the worst offenders. Nightmare could've been a really awesome 10 minute song without all the extra bullshit at the end and the growling part is the most embarrassing thing I've ever heard in a DT song (aside from the sex sounds in Home and weird crying in Losing Faythe).
If there's ever a thing that they can learn and apply from The Astonishing (And there's a lot of more things to learn from that album) is that they don't need a lot of minutes to make a compelling song. It's a triumph from that album.

Also now that you mention it: There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Moaning noises in Home. It's not just a part that unavoidably prevents you from playing that song when your not rock-liking friends pass you the aux cord (Much like White Zombie's 'More Human than Human'): It actually helps the story go forward and sets a tone to the song's narrative.

Still won't put it when they lend me the aux cord though.

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 41963
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8509 on: October 14, 2018, 07:57:54 AM »
Indeed, that's the only issue with the song... starting heavy and then going into the Beautiful Agony part is perfect and works quite well. It's what comes after that feels disjointed and "We have to make this song 16 minutes long".
including the death growl section

That's not a death growl.

Offline Bertielee

  • Posts: 2406
  • Gender: Male
  • RIP, Dad (1935-2017)
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8510 on: October 14, 2018, 08:20:19 AM »
Indeed, that's the only issue with the song... starting heavy and then going into the Beautiful Agony part is perfect and works quite well. It's what comes after that feels disjointed and "We have to make this song 16 minutes long".
including the death growl section

That's not a death growl.

Definitely not. MP can't do death growls just as he can't do blast beats. Now, that's controversial. Or is it?

B.Lee
"Life is divided into two sets of people : people who have lost and people who haven't yet." George Michael

Offline geeeemo

  • Posts: 1014
  • Gender: Female
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8511 on: October 14, 2018, 09:10:54 AM »
Indeed, that's the only issue with the song... starting heavy and then going into the Beautiful Agony part is perfect and works quite well. It's what comes after that feels disjointed and "We have to make this song 16 minutes long".
including the death growl section

I notice lots of commentary about how some songs are too long, but I disagree and ANTR especially.  Now I am not a practicing musician so the technical aspects don't apply to my like or dislike.  One of the things that I love about DT is the length of the songs! ANTR is very interesting and enjoyable after the beautiful agony part. And lets talking the growling voice.   That is another thing I loved when I first listened. Of course I don't want to hear it all the time, but it gives the songs texture, surprise and the metal element (without having a song with the awful growling as a main vocal throughout).  I have wondered many times with MP gone could JP growl? Or maybe MM could give it a whirl.....

Offline Max Kuehnau

  • Emotionless Brainiac
  • Posts: 2447
  • Gender: Male
  • Doomed to be a man this world forgot
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8512 on: October 14, 2018, 09:35:41 AM »
Indeed, that's the only issue with the song... starting heavy and then going into the Beautiful Agony part is perfect and works quite well. It's what comes after that feels disjointed and "We have to make this song 16 minutes long".
including the death growl section

That's not a death growl.

Definitely not. MP can't do death growls just as he can't do blast beats. Now, that's controversial. Or is it?

B.Lee
not in my opinion anyway. He definitely can't do blastbeats. And btw: I know that most people wouldn't call that a death growl. I just didn't know how else to reference it. At least everyone knew which section I meant.
"All my natural instincts are begging me to stop
But somehow I carry on, heading for the top
A physical absurdity, a tremendous mental game
Helping me understand exactly who I am"

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36084
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8513 on: October 14, 2018, 09:40:27 AM »
I think we used to call it "tough guy vocals."
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline erwinrafael

  • Posts: 3436
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8514 on: October 14, 2018, 10:21:40 AM »
Those are Cookie Monster vocals.

Seriously, that section makes ANTR a laughable song. It was a good song until Cookie Monster comes in with that awful phrasing and then the song is ruined.

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36084
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8515 on: October 14, 2018, 10:23:10 AM »
Those are Cookie Monster vocals.

Seriously, that section makes ANTR a laughable song. It was a good song until Cookie Monster comes in with that awful phrasing and then the song is ruined.

Damn, forgot about Cookie Monster vocals. You're right.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Bertielee

  • Posts: 2406
  • Gender: Male
  • RIP, Dad (1935-2017)
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8516 on: October 14, 2018, 11:02:00 AM »
Those are Cookie Monster vocals.

Seriously, that section makes ANTR a laughable song. It was a good song until Cookie Monster comes in with that awful phrasing and then the song is ruined.

Damn, forgot about Cookie Monster vocals. You're right.

Yes, that's it, Cookie Monster Vocals : I wonder what came through MP's head then...
"Life is divided into two sets of people : people who have lost and people who haven't yet." George Michael

Offline IDontNotDoThings

  • Posts: 3627
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8517 on: October 14, 2018, 07:36:29 PM »
One time I had a friend describe MP's vocals at the start of TSF as "strong bad vocals"
ドリームシアターはあまり好きではありませんが、ペンと紙を持っていたので、なんてこった。

Offline ToT-147

  • Posts: 2223
  • Gender: Male
  • Living out this Utopian Dream
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8518 on: October 14, 2018, 07:44:25 PM »
Why is people even complaining yet again about that section of ANtR on a "controversial thread", when is not controversial at all??...

You want controversial?: I love the song as it is.. Also, the "without warning" section and the part right after the MP's vocals are very underrated sections of the songs.. And why do I say underrated? well, because I think that if there wasn't so much hatred felt and/or expressed regarding the song's final minutes I feel those parts would be more liked and/or positively rated..

Controversial opinion: I think the Beautiful Agony section in ANTR works perfectly within the track & shouldn't have been its own song. The very reason it works so well is because it's such a contrast to the tone of the rest of the song without being sudden or feeling like it doesn't belong (not to mention that the main riff in the section being a really good motif of the main riff in ANTR).

I agree with this!, although I've never heard/read someone saying that the section should've been a song on its own..

Also, I don't know to which "main riff" are you talking about.. The "Beautiful Agony" section doesn't have what you'd call a "riff"... Maybe you're talking about the vocal melody of the two main verses?.. Because that's the only leitmotif the song has (Basically "A nightmare to remember, I'll never be the same" is, saving the context, the same as "Lying on the table, In this unfamiliar place")..
UTÓPICA 'Symphonic Progressive Metal' band - First album's now out
iTunes goo.gl/z5kl9d Amazon goo.gl/bWTwMF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRKNqEH1rxo (Videoclip from Second album)

Offline Zook

  • Evil Incarnate
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 14144
  • Gender: Male
  • Take My Hand
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8519 on: October 14, 2018, 07:56:25 PM »
Those are Cookie Monster vocals.

Seriously, that section makes ANTR a laughable song. It was a good song until Cookie Monster comes in with that awful phrasing and then the song is ruined.

I haven't watched Sesame Street in a long time, but last I did, Cookie Monster didn't sound like that.


Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36084
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8520 on: October 14, 2018, 08:05:24 PM »
Those are Cookie Monster vocals.

Seriously, that section makes ANTR a laughable song. It was a good song until Cookie Monster comes in with that awful phrasing and then the song is ruined.

I haven't watched Sesame Street in a long time, but last I did, Cookie Monster didn't sound like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6msQ_y213JU
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Zook

  • Evil Incarnate
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 14144
  • Gender: Male
  • Take My Hand
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8521 on: October 14, 2018, 08:24:11 PM »
Those are Cookie Monster vocals.

Seriously, that section makes ANTR a laughable song. It was a good song until Cookie Monster comes in with that awful phrasing and then the song is ruined.

I haven't watched Sesame Street in a long time, but last I did, Cookie Monster didn't sound like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6msQ_y213JU

My whole life is a lie.










But seriously, they're just tough guy shouting vocals.

Offline IDontNotDoThings

  • Posts: 3627
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8522 on: October 14, 2018, 08:29:17 PM »
Controversial opinion: I think the Beautiful Agony section in ANTR works perfectly within the track & shouldn't have been its own song. The very reason it works so well is because it's such a contrast to the tone of the rest of the song without being sudden or feeling like it doesn't belong (not to mention that the main riff in the section being a really good motif of the main riff in ANTR).

I agree with this!, although I've never heard/read someone saying that the section should've been a song on its own..

Also, I don't know to which "main riff" are you talking about.. The "Beautiful Agony" section doesn't have what you'd call a "riff"... Maybe you're talking about the vocal melody of the two main verses?.. Because that's the only leitmotif the song has (Basically "A nightmare to remember, I'll never be the same" is, saving the context, the same as "Lying on the table, In this unfamiliar place")..

I actually didn't notice that one, though that's actually really cool how it does that.

No, what I was referring to was the riff in the main song (1:43) sounding like the arpeggio in the 2nd verse of Beauiful Agony section (7:19). It might be a co-incidence, but I always thought it was cool how they kinda sound alike.

Also, it might not really be a consensus, but I was reading some old DTF threads (namely this one) and I got the impression that it was an opinion that a lot of people had.
ドリームシアターはあまり好きではありませんが、ペンと紙を持っていたので、なんてこった。

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 15690
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8523 on: October 14, 2018, 08:53:13 PM »
Those are Cookie Monster vocals.

Seriously, that section makes ANTR a laughable song. It was a good song until Cookie Monster comes in with that awful phrasing and then the song is ruined.

I haven't watched Sesame Street in a long time, but last I did, Cookie Monster didn't sound like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6msQ_y213JU

My quip is after this part. Its unnecessary
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man
Follow my Spotify:BjamminD

Offline ToT-147

  • Posts: 2223
  • Gender: Male
  • Living out this Utopian Dream
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8524 on: October 14, 2018, 09:29:35 PM »
I was referring to was the riff in the main song (1:43) sounding like the arpeggio in the 2nd verse of Beauiful Agony section (7:19). It might be a co-incidence, but I always thought it was cool how they kinda sound alike.

Also, it might not really be a consensus, but I was reading some old DTF threads (namely this one) and I got the impression that it was an opinion that a lot of people had.

Heard and read.. Now I get where you were coming from in both cases.. :tup
UTÓPICA 'Symphonic Progressive Metal' band - First album's now out
iTunes goo.gl/z5kl9d Amazon goo.gl/bWTwMF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRKNqEH1rxo (Videoclip from Second album)

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13557
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8525 on: October 14, 2018, 09:37:23 PM »
One time I had a friend describe MP's vocals at the start of TSF as "strong bad vocals"

I laughed at that. Were any band to incorporate Strong Bad vocals in to their songs, they should rename the Grammy Award after that band, give them all the Grammys that year, even for categories they don't qualify for, and then retire the award and never give out another one again.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline IDontNotDoThings

  • Posts: 3627
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8526 on: October 14, 2018, 10:28:42 PM »
Not to beat this dead horse, but I'm so glad the obsession with long songs that plagued DT from 2002-2009 is over. So many great songs bogged down in unnecessary repetition and padding. Nightmare, Rite Of Passage, and Best Of Times are probably the worst offenders. Nightmare could've been a really awesome 10 minute song without all the extra bullshit at the end and the growling part is the most embarrassing thing I've ever heard in a DT song (aside from the sex sounds in Home and weird crying in Losing Faythe).

I got you covered dude ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNstaicByEc
ドリームシアターはあまり好きではありませんが、ペンと紙を持っていたので、なんてこった。

Offline gzarruk

  • Posts: 5140
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8527 on: October 14, 2018, 10:47:23 PM »
Not to beat this dead horse, but I'm so glad the obsession with long songs that plagued DT from 2002-2009 is over. So many great songs bogged down in unnecessary repetition and padding. Nightmare, Rite Of Passage, and Best Of Times are probably the worst offenders. Nightmare could've been a really awesome 10 minute song without all the extra bullshit at the end and the growling part is the most embarrassing thing I've ever heard in a DT song (aside from the sex sounds in Home and weird crying in Losing Faythe).

I got you covered dude ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNstaicByEc

THIS! :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline DTA

  • Posts: 2456
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8528 on: October 15, 2018, 06:23:18 AM »
Not to beat this dead horse, but I'm so glad the obsession with long songs that plagued DT from 2002-2009 is over. So many great songs bogged down in unnecessary repetition and padding. Nightmare, Rite Of Passage, and Best Of Times are probably the worst offenders. Nightmare could've been a really awesome 10 minute song without all the extra bullshit at the end and the growling part is the most embarrassing thing I've ever heard in a DT song (aside from the sex sounds in Home and weird crying in Losing Faythe).

I got you covered dude ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNstaicByEc

Definitely an improvement!

Offline ToT-147

  • Posts: 2223
  • Gender: Male
  • Living out this Utopian Dream
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8529 on: October 15, 2018, 12:55:24 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNstaicByEc

I'm glad they didn't do it like this, otherwise the instrumental sections before and after "day after day" -which are some of the best parts of the song- wouldn't exist.. :azn:
UTÓPICA 'Symphonic Progressive Metal' band - First album's now out
iTunes goo.gl/z5kl9d Amazon goo.gl/bWTwMF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRKNqEH1rxo (Videoclip from Second album)

Offline Evai

  • Posts: 497
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8530 on: October 17, 2018, 04:07:53 AM »
I'd take a hundred 'reoccurring nightmares haunting my dreams' over a single 'I'm so lonely without mommys love!'
Jordan took Moore's boring, pedestrian parts and elevated them considerably to take them from barely palatable to stellar.

Offline 425

  • Posts: 6910
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8531 on: October 17, 2018, 03:50:47 PM »
You want controversial?: I love the song as it is.. Also, the "without warning" section and the part right after the MP's vocals are very underrated sections of the songs..

I agree with this.


That's not a death growl.

Definitely not. MP can't do death growls just as he can't do blast beats. Now, that's controversial. Or is it?

B.Lee

The question of whether MP can growl is a separate one from the question of whether he is growling on ANTR. Because he was trying not to growl on that song.

There's a post on MP's forum from around the time of the album where he discusses how the band approached that section. Initially, he did record growls on that part, but the rest of the band basically felt that doing full growls would be going too far for the fanbase. So they tried two compromise options to give the song the aggression MP thought it needed without going to the all-out growled section that the rest of the band opposed. One of the options was a counterpoint section with JLB's cleans layered over MP's growls. The other was to use what Mike calls the tough guy voice, which is what ended up being used.

Here is the post. It's worth checking out if you have not seen it before—there are audio clips of the alternate versions for that section!
And if spirit's a sign,
Then it's only a matter of time

Offline pg1067

  • Posts: 12430
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8532 on: October 17, 2018, 06:58:56 PM »
You want controversial?: I love the song as it is.. Also, the "without warning" section and the part right after the MP's vocals are very underrated sections of the songs..

I agree with this.


That's not a death growl.

Definitely not. MP can't do death growls just as he can't do blast beats. Now, that's controversial. Or is it?

B.Lee

The question of whether MP can growl is a separate one from the question of whether he is growling on ANTR. Because he was trying not to growl on that song.

There's a post on MP's forum from around the time of the album where he discusses how the band approached that section. Initially, he did record growls on that part, but the rest of the band basically felt that doing full growls would be going too far for the fanbase. So they tried two compromise options to give the song the aggression MP thought it needed without going to the all-out growled section that the rest of the band opposed. One of the options was a counterpoint section with JLB's cleans layered over MP's growls. The other was to use what Mike calls the tough guy voice, which is what ended up being used.

Here is the post. It's worth checking out if you have not seen it before—there are audio clips of the alternate versions for that section!

Gotta say that the two "cookie monster" examples in that thread at MP's site were utterly awful.  I would have liked to have heard the version with just JLB.  I have a feeling I would have liked that best.
"There's a bass solo in a song called Metropolis where I do a bass solo."  John Myung

Offline Herrick

  • Posts: 1966
  • Gender: Male
  • Hello Mangs
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8533 on: October 17, 2018, 07:13:35 PM »
Controversial opinion: I think the Beautiful Agony section in ANTR works perfectly within the track & shouldn't have been its own song. The very reason it works so well is because it's such a contrast to the tone of the rest of the song without being sudden or feeling like it doesn't belong (not to mention that the main riff in the section being a really good motif of the main riff in ANTR). If they had separated the track, I highly doubt it'd be held in such high regard, & I certainly wouldn't adore the track as much as I do if it'd been separated. Also, the transition into it is easily my favourite part of the song. :hefdaddy

I do agree that the part after should've been shortened though, I won't deny that.  :\

I never knew that was going to be a separate song.
DISPLAY thy Breasts, My Julia!

Offline Setlist Scotty

  • Posts: 4472
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8534 on: October 17, 2018, 07:26:42 PM »
I never knew that was going to be a separate song.
It never was - some fans just liked that section by itself, and they used the stem tracks included with the deluxe box set of BCaSL to create it themselves.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 13557
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8535 on: October 17, 2018, 09:43:38 PM »
to give the song the aggression MP thought it needed....

Ugh... it didn't need the "aggression" and it certainly didn't need it at the cost of quality singing.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline ChuckSteak

  • Posts: 1688
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8536 on: October 18, 2018, 02:51:24 AM »
There's a post on MP's forum from around the time of the album where he discusses how the band approached that section. Initially, he did record growls on that part, but the rest of the band basically felt that doing full growls would be going too far for the fanbase. So they tried two compromise options to give the song the aggression MP thought it needed without going to the all-out growled section that the rest of the band opposed. One of the options was a counterpoint section with JLB's cleans layered over MP's growls. The other was to use what Mike calls the tough guy voice, which is what ended up being used.
Which was a bad decision. I don't see how a section that lasts 20, 30 seconds would be "going too far" for the fanbase. How many songs they recorded before that? I don't see the harm in doing some death growls in 20 seconds of a single song. They should have invited someone to do it though.

Offline MirrorMask

  • Posts: 13319
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8537 on: October 18, 2018, 03:56:10 AM »
There's also the problem of the musical section and the lyrics being so dissonant. I get that you have to complete the storyline by telling that there were no casualties, but the only spot to do so is the (tentatively) heaviest and most extreme section of DT's entire catalog? it's like having The Dark Eternal Night being a love song.
I use my sig to pimp some bands from Italy! Check out Elvenking (Power / Folk metal), Folkstone (Rock / Medieval metal), Arcana Opera (Gothic/Noir/Heavy metal) and the beautiful voice of Elisa!

Offline IDontNotDoThings

  • Posts: 3627
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8538 on: October 18, 2018, 04:00:57 AM »
it's like having The Dark Eternal Night being a love song.

"no one dared to speak of the terrible danger" describes my love-life pretty well tbh
ドリームシアターはあまり好きではありませんが、ペンと紙を持っていたので、なんてこった。

Offline MirrorMask

  • Posts: 13319
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #8539 on: October 18, 2018, 04:04:28 AM »
it's like having The Dark Eternal Night being a love song.

"no one dared to speak of the terrible danger" describes my love-life pretty well tbh

 :rollin
I use my sig to pimp some bands from Italy! Check out Elvenking (Power / Folk metal), Folkstone (Rock / Medieval metal), Arcana Opera (Gothic/Noir/Heavy metal) and the beautiful voice of Elisa!