Author Topic: Your Controversial Opinions on DT  (Read 979788 times)

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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7245 on: March 10, 2016, 02:43:12 AM »
Not sure why a 'pang' in a snare is a bad thing, or whatever 'fighting the sound' means. I just don't see anything particularly wrong with the drum sound on either DT12 or TA. :dunno:

Mangini did have problems with the snare sound in the DT album, but he also learned a new technique from that. That's when he started playing on his left and right cymbals a lot of what could have been ghost notes on the snare (and we can hear that in IT, TLG, and STR).

For the TA snare, I don't really hear a problem. It sounds like a snare to me, and I am one of those rumbo mentioned that can discern dynamics from the snare (like, the snare in Losing Faythe is definitely not played the same as Moment of Betrayal).

For the "typewriter" bass,  it does have that effect on TGOM. But the bass drum sound works in songs like ONW and TPTD.

Offline Enigmachine

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7246 on: March 10, 2016, 09:30:27 AM »
Not sure why a 'pang' in a snare is a bad thing, or whatever 'fighting the sound' means. I just don't see anything particularly wrong with the drum sound on either DT12 or TA. :dunno:

Mangini did have problems with the snare sound in the DT album, but he also learned a new technique from that. That's when he started playing on his left and right cymbals a lot of what could have been ghost notes on the snare (and we can hear that in IT, TLG, and STR).

For the TA snare, I don't really hear a problem. It sounds like a snare to me, and I am one of those rumbo mentioned that can discern dynamics from the snare (like, the snare in Losing Faythe is definitely not played the same as Moment of Betrayal).

For the "typewriter" bass,  it does have that effect on TGOM. But the bass drum sound works in songs like ONW and TPTD.

Yeah, pretty much. The snare on DT12 was worked around in a really creative and cool way and the snare and kick work well in context.

Offline pcs90

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7247 on: March 10, 2016, 11:21:58 PM »
The really clear "typewriter" kick sound really works for the more detailed parts though, like when Mangini plays along with James' fast part in TPTD.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7248 on: March 11, 2016, 06:48:05 PM »
To add to the discussion on Mangini's drum sound, Mangini has gone on record before that this production in MullMuzzler 2 is what captures how he "hears" his drums in the studio:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdGThjRtDuU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdKk_kxRXyA


Personally, my favorite drum production for Mangini is in Exit Elvis and Elements of Persuasion, although the soundscape of the songs there is different from his Dream Theater albums.

Offline Adami

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7249 on: March 11, 2016, 06:58:47 PM »
To add to the discussion on Mangini's drum sound, Mangini has gone on record before that this production in MullMuzzler 2 is what captures how he "hears" his drums in the studio:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdGThjRtDuU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdKk_kxRXyA


Personally, my favorite drum production for Mangini is in Exit Elvis and Elements of Persuasion, although the soundscape of the songs there is different from his Dream Theater albums.

Yea, I think at this point I just don't like his drum/heads or how he tunes them. The only time I've liked them was on EoP. I know most people generally say "they sound good but they suffer from bad production" on most other albums, but at this point I think they sound bad but had good production on EoP. Dude just needs different drums or a different set up. Then again, he (and people like you) seem to absolutely love his drum sound, so such is life.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7250 on: March 11, 2016, 09:03:32 PM »
Go listen to the drum fills during the chorus of The Road to Revolution on the CD.

Then listen to them here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niQA5hNAEZ8

Crazy how much better his drums sound live.  His drum sound in the studio doesn't really bother me like it does some, but it doesn't impress me either. 

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7251 on: March 11, 2016, 10:31:43 PM »
Honestly, I can not imagine why Chycki doesn't just stick with the Elements of Persuasion sound of Mangini's drums. It captures the bass drums that he loves using a lot in his orchestration, you can hear the melodic playing of the toms and cymbals, and the snare has more dynamics. It does sound a bit processed but that is really just because the overall production of the album is amped up and compressed.

Examples:

Lost

Some nifty cymbals orchestration in Drained

Wel, the YT quality is bad, but the original recording of that is clear.


Offline rumborak

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7252 on: March 12, 2016, 08:35:01 AM »
I'm pretty sure Chycki just does what the artist (here, JP and MM) requests.
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Offline DoctorAction

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7253 on: March 13, 2016, 04:25:21 AM »
I've pretty much run out of patience with DT at this point. They don't seem capable of satisfying the fundamentals that I think constitute great music anymore.

A great deal of that is down to personal taste of course but their insistence on no external producer and what I see as a lack of critical judgement on their own output leaves me frequently rolling my eyes and feeling frustrated rather than lost in music.

I would love it if they went in and recorded a stripped-down, lo-fi record that *really* sounded like great musicians playing together in a room, as far as possible. That goes on less than an hour. Drums that sounds like you're there next to them. The buzz of the amplifiers. No click track. Squeak of fingers on strings. Room ambience. Chatter between tracks. Vocals that aren't doubled/chorused all the time. Real piano. Lyrics that aren't a pointless, drawn out rehash of one of the most famous rock concept albums of all time.

They did real piano on TA i know. But generally feels all so sterilised and lacking to me. Some great moments on the last 5 or 6 albums but they've not hit it out of the park since 6D, IMO.

I've stopped expecting greatness as of now. They're just a band that used to be amazing, afaic.
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Offline Onno

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7254 on: March 13, 2016, 03:01:59 PM »
I agree with most of that, mostly regarding the production/sound of their last few albums.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7255 on: March 13, 2016, 05:38:41 PM »
I would love it if they went in and recorded a stripped-down, lo-fi record that *really* sounded like great musicians playing together in a room, as far as possible.

I have long fantasized about them doing that as a music video. MM counts in, and they perform a whole song, as is. No doubled guitars, no doubled vocals, no samples unless triggered by Jordan. Five guys in a room, and if there is a flub, so what.
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Offline chaossystem

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7256 on: March 13, 2016, 07:33:08 PM »
It sounds to me like what some of you want is for DT to go back to a '60s & '70s style of recording, in the tradition of The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, etc. I think it might be interesting to see what would happen if they tried something like that, but I'm also thinking about how those bands were a product of their time, and DT is a product of this current generation, so I'm not sure about how doing that would work for them.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7257 on: March 13, 2016, 08:29:29 PM »
I resent the idea that recording instruments *as they sound naturally* is some kind of indicator for passé music. In fact, go into any Starbucks, and you will hear that modern music puts a lot of emphasis on natural-sounding instruments and voices. It's DT who, sound-wise, are stuck in the late 90's.
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Offline Rodni Demental

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7258 on: March 13, 2016, 10:08:15 PM »
I've pretty much run out of patience with DT at this point. They don't seem capable of satisfying the fundamentals that I think constitute great music anymore.

A great deal of that All of that is down to personal taste of course
*snip*

:P

I can relate to some of what you've said and it would always be interesting to see them try things differently, but I don't think I know or could say how it 'ought to be' although there are a lot of people who seem to know how to 'fix' DT and make them 'great again'. It just baffles me that someone could believe themselves when they're basically saying: "the band would be so much better if only they listened to me and just did what I want".

Sorry, it's perfectly valid for you to feel the way you do of course and I'm more using your comment as an outlet to express myself as opposed to singling you out personally or pretending to know exactly what you mean.

Offline DoctorAction

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7259 on: March 14, 2016, 01:25:36 AM »

... (i don't think i) could say how it 'ought to be' ...


Sure you could. It's all opinion. Aaaaall of it. :-)
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Offline The Astonished

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7260 on: March 14, 2016, 04:16:45 AM »
This does not come from me, but the favourite album of a friend of mine is Black Clouds & Silver Linings. More importantly, A Rite of Passage is his favourite track.  :biggrin:
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7261 on: March 14, 2016, 06:23:38 AM »
This does not come from me, but the favourite album of a friend of mine is Black Clouds & Silver Linings. More importantly, A Rite of Passage is his favourite track.  :biggrin:

I like both far more than the typical DT fan.  Great stuff if you ask me.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7262 on: March 14, 2016, 08:05:51 AM »

... (i don't think i) could say how it 'ought to be' ...


Sure you could. It's all opinion. Aaaaall of it. :-)

Except it's not really, because it's rooted in selfishness and delusion.   THEY are the artists.  It's THEIR statement.   They are just as "great" as they always were. It's not like the all of a sudden forgot how to play their instruments, or forgot how to play together.  It just doesn't resonate with YOU.  That's not really "opinion", it's just the fact of what you like and don't like.  There might be "facets" of their current choices you don't like, but it is arrogant in the extreme to say that because you - one person out of 7.3 billion people on the planet - don't like it as much as something that came before that therefore they are "[no longer] amazing". 

"Images and Words" is a top ten album for me, all time by any band.  Octavarium is close to that, as is Six Degrees....  I am not on the train of the "Mangini era".  I think he overplays at almost every opportunity.  I think the greatest of rock drummers - Peart, Bonham, Collins, Portnoy - make playing in "19/16 time" sound like "4/4" even if it isn't (think: "Turn It On Again").  Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 19/16, and that's not a compliment.  But that's on ME, not the band.   They made their choice, they are clearly happy and inspired (by any analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work, even if it hasn't resonated with each and every individual fan). 

Offline Enigmachine

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7263 on: March 14, 2016, 08:12:47 AM »
I resent the idea that recording instruments *as they sound naturally* is some kind of indicator for passé music. In fact, go into any Starbucks, and you will hear that modern music puts a lot of emphasis on natural-sounding instruments and voices. It's DT who, sound-wise, are stuck in the late 90's.

I don't think you got what chaossystem is getting at. Producing music naturally is fine, but things like counting in, no doubling and mistakes are products of a bygone era where those bands didn't have the time or money to polish up their material. None of that will make DT's music any better, trust me. Some of their most celebrated albums are as far from raw as you can get. IaW and Awake? Extremely polished albums.

That last sentence makes no sense whatsoever. I don't recall the late 90s having a particular sound.

Except it's not really, because it's rooted in selfishness and delusion.   THEY are the artists.  It's THEIR statement.   They are just as "great" as they always were. It's not like the all of a sudden forgot how to play their instruments, or forgot how to play together.  It just doesn't resonate with YOU.  That's not really "opinion", it's just the fact of what you like and don't like.  There might be "facets" of their current choices you don't like, but it is arrogant in the extreme to say that because you - one person out of 7.3 billion people on the planet - don't like it as much as something that came before that therefore they are "[no longer] amazing". 

"Images and Words" is a top ten album for me, all time by any band.  Octavarium is close to that, as is Six Degrees....  I am not on the train of the "Mangini era".  I think he overplays at almost every opportunity.  I think the greatest of rock drummers - Peart, Bonham, Collins, Portnoy - make playing in "19/16 time" sound like "4/4" even if it isn't (think: "Turn It On Again").  Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 19/16, and that's not a compliment.  But that's on ME, not the band.   They made their choice, they are clearly happy and inspired (by any analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work, even if it hasn't resonated with each and every individual fan). 

 :tup


Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7264 on: March 14, 2016, 08:15:43 AM »
I would love it if they went in and recorded a stripped-down, lo-fi record that *really* sounded like great musicians playing together in a room, as far as possible. That goes on less than an hour. Drums that sounds like you're there next to them. The buzz of the amplifiers. No click track. Squeak of fingers on strings. Room ambience. Chatter between tracks. Vocals that aren't doubled/chorused all the time. Real piano. Lyrics that aren't a pointless, drawn out rehash of one of the most famous rock concept albums of all time.
That would be a neat record, for sure, but it wouldn't be a return to anything, because most of that is nothing they have ever done on any record before.  That would be a new thing.

That's all cool stuff.  It's just not what DT does.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7265 on: March 14, 2016, 08:34:10 AM »
I can't really hear how Mangini is the one who overplays. If anything, his drumming sounds simple because it blends in with what the other instruments are doing, but is actually hard to play.

He doesn't even come close to the drum playing in Blind Faith, TCOT or Misunderstood where Portnoy felt the need to play fills every gap he gets.

Offline Enigmachine

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7266 on: March 14, 2016, 08:48:55 AM »
I can't really hear how Mangini is the one who overplays. If anything, his drumming sounds simple because it blends in with what the other instruments are doing, but is actually hard to play.

He doesn't even come close to the drum playing in Blind Faith, TCOT or Misunderstood where Portnoy felt the need to play fills every gap he gets.

Yeah, there's some intricate interaction with other instruments going on a lot of the time with MM. Some nice and subtle stuff.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7267 on: March 14, 2016, 10:42:01 AM »
Begin Again is an awesome song.
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Offline The Astonished

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7268 on: March 14, 2016, 10:50:51 AM »
This does not come from me, but the favourite album of a friend of mine is Black Clouds & Silver Linings. More importantly, A Rite of Passage is his favourite track.  :biggrin:

I like both far more than the typical DT fan.  Great stuff if you ask me.

Of course, I agree with that statement. But favourite song? That's definitely controversial. ;)
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Offline jakepriest

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7269 on: March 14, 2016, 11:56:02 AM »
Begin Again is an awesome song.

It's the only song on The Astonishing I can say I outright dislike.

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7270 on: March 14, 2016, 12:57:32 PM »
Begin Again is an awesome song.

It's the only song on The Astonishing I can say I outright dislike.

I tend to agree... I think it's the most expendable song in term of story (Skip it and you don't miss anything) and music (the lesser of the slower songs). Still, it's not that I loathe the song, it's just the one I like the less, maybe hearing it live will make me change my mind.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7271 on: March 14, 2016, 01:07:57 PM »
Begin Again is an awesome song.

It's the only song on The Astonishing I can say I outright dislike.

I tend to agree... I think it's the most expendable song in term of story (Skip it and you don't miss anything) and music (the lesser of the slower songs). Still, it's not that I loathe the song, it's just the one I like the less, maybe hearing it live will make me change my mind.

It's a fine song, but you are right in terms of the story and it's only better than Whispers in the Wind in terms of slower songs.  I would say calling it awesome is somewhat controversial, it's not that good if you ask me.

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7272 on: March 14, 2016, 01:20:13 PM »
Begin Again is an awesome song.

It's the only song on The Astonishing I can say I outright dislike.

I tend to agree... I think it's the most expendable song in term of story (Skip it and you don't miss anything) and music (the lesser of the slower songs). Still, it's not that I loathe the song, it's just the one I like the less, maybe hearing it live will make me change my mind.

The way I see it, the outro (one of the best moments in the album in my opinion) makes the song worthwhile. Without the outro, it sounds like "Act Of Faythe Pt. 2".

Offline jakepriest

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7273 on: March 14, 2016, 01:32:54 PM »
The way I see it, the outro (one of the best moments in the album in my opinion) makes the song worthwhile. Without the outro, it sounds like "Act Of Faythe Pt. 2".

Except that Act of Faythe is actually a good song. :neverusethis:

Offline cramx3

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7274 on: March 14, 2016, 01:58:01 PM »
Is it controversial to say that the soft songs are the best songs on TA?

Chosen
When Your Time has Come
A Life Left Behind
Act of Faythe
The Answer
Losing Faythe

are some of my favorite songs on the album and as a whole I think are better than the heavier songs.

Offline DoctorAction

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7275 on: March 14, 2016, 05:07:20 PM »

... (i don't think i) could say how it 'ought to be' ...


Sure you could. It's all opinion. Aaaaall of it. :-)

Except it's not really, because it's rooted in selfishness and delusion.   THEY are the artists.  It's THEIR statement.   They are just as "great" as they always were. It's not like the all of a sudden forgot how to play their instruments, or forgot how to play together.  It just doesn't resonate with YOU.  That's not really "opinion", it's just the fact of what you like and don't like.  There might be "facets" of their current choices you don't like, but it is arrogant in the extreme to say that because you - one person out of 7.3 billion people on the planet - don't like it as much as something that came before that therefore they are "[no longer] amazing". 

"Images and Words" is a top ten album for me, all time by any band.  Octavarium is close to that, as is Six Degrees....  I am not on the train of the "Mangini era".  I think he overplays at almost every opportunity.  I think the greatest of rock drummers - Peart, Bonham, Collins, Portnoy - make playing in "19/16 time" sound like "4/4" even if it isn't (think: "Turn It On Again").  Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 19/16, and that's not a compliment.  But that's on ME, not the band.   They made their choice, they are clearly happy and inspired (by any analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work, even if it hasn't resonated with each and every individual fan). 

It's all subjective. They are no longer an amazing band *to me*. Loads of people have *never* found them amazing. There's no arrogance there. I don't need, expect or demand any particular level of agreement.

You, on the other hand, state that "by *any* analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work" - do you see the irony here?

People have different views. Get over it.
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Offline sneakyblueberry

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7276 on: March 14, 2016, 05:21:13 PM »
I am not on the train of the "Mangini era".  I think he overplays at almost every opportunity.  I think the greatest of rock drummers - Peart, Bonham, Collins, Portnoy - make playing in "19/16 time" sound like "4/4" even if it isn't (think: "Turn It On Again").  Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 19/16, and that's not a compliment.  But that's on ME, not the band.   They made their choice, they are clearly happy and inspired (by any analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work, even if it hasn't resonated with each and every individual fan). 

I really like your example of Turn It On Again, but I think you're neglecting the fact that Genesis at that point in their career, were wanting to make music that people could dance to - hence Phil's decision to play over that 13/8 riff in common time.  If DT were wanting to make music that people could dance to without fucking... slipping a disc or summat then you might have a point, but I don't think they've ever cared about that.

That being said, my controversial opinion on DT is that they have gotten steadily more irrelevant and... unexciting since MP left.  Now they're just somebody that I used to know.  I still love the old records, and will respect their legacy but nothing they have done since BC&SL has interested me. 


Offline Outcrier

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7277 on: March 14, 2016, 05:37:44 PM »
It's all subjective. They are no longer an amazing band *to me*. Loads of people have *never* found them amazing. There's no arrogance there. I don't need, expect or demand any particular level of agreement.

You, on the other hand, state that "by *any* analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work" - do you see the irony here?

People have different views. Get over it.

Agreed. They still are great players, but the actual songwriting declined a lot, but that's fine, happens with most bands anyway.

And i didn't found The Astonishing inspired at all.
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Offline Dream Team

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7278 on: March 14, 2016, 07:21:19 PM »
It WAS inspired . . . by 2112 and Romeo & Juliet   :biggrin:

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Re: Your Controversial Opinions on DT
« Reply #7279 on: March 14, 2016, 07:39:24 PM »
I am not on the train of the "Mangini era".  I think he overplays at almost every opportunity.  I think the greatest of rock drummers - Peart, Bonham, Collins, Portnoy - make playing in "19/16 time" sound like "4/4" even if it isn't (think: "Turn It On Again").  Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 19/16, and that's not a compliment.  But that's on ME, not the band.   They made their choice, they are clearly happy and inspired (by any analysis, "The Astonishing" is an inspired work, even if it hasn't resonated with each and every individual fan). 

Funny, I think that one of Portnoy's bad traits as a drummer is that he tends to overplay stuff.
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