Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[King Postwhore]

Hef just answered Stadler in two sentences.  425, take notice.

[hefdaddy42]

Hef just answered Stadler in two sentences.  425, take notice.

Yeah, but I left out a lot of detail.

[King Postwhore]

I know.  I just for the life of me respond in a 10 page retort, (it felt like it) to much to type.  I really should get Dragon Speech software.

[425]

Hef just answered Stadler in two sentences.  425, take notice.

Heh, yeah, I know I have no sense of restraint in these things.

[King Postwhore]

Hef just answered Stadler in two sentences.  425, take notice.

Heh, yeah, I know I have no sense of restraint in these things.

and I'm to lazy to type that all out.

[rumborak]

And there's no good listening volume for an overcompressed album. If you turn it down, it's still a wall of sound, but it somehow sounds too loud and too soft at the same time, and you can't make out anything.

This, totally. There is a difference between volume and loudness.

[425]

I've never really used an amplifier like that; is the "Loudness" knob actually a way of reducing dynamic range on the system, or is it something else (you can probably tell I know very little about audio)?

[rumborak]

Yup. To my understanding it is a compressor inside, and the knob influences the nonlinearity.

[GasparXR]

Yup. To my understanding it is a compressor inside, and the knob influences the nonlinearity.

That's interesting. I've seen stuff like that on older speaker systems from the 70s/80s, but very rarely on newer ones since they became simplified for consumers, is that a new one or an oldie?

[rumborak]

It looks exactly like the one I had in the 90s. I'm assuming it's old.

[425]

Yup. To my understanding it is a compressor inside, and the knob influences the nonlinearity.

Wow. That's... Quite strange.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Keep in mind that bands retrospectively admit issues in their material all the time. When Sanctuary just released their first album in two decades, almost every interview with them saw them mention how awful the production on their two earlier albums were and how much better this one is (as an aside, if DT12 sounded like that album, it would have been much better off). Even with DT, there's the FII issues, there's the Prater issues, there's Petrucci calling WDADU amateurish, etc. Hell, there's even the infamous moment where JM calls out the move-into-the-studio-and-write stuff on the WDADRU commentary. Obviously they're not going to take shots at the last album, because it's their newest product and they're still trying to sell it. I wouldn't be at all surprised if in a few years, some interviewer could wring an admission from JP that DT isn't exactly their best-sounding record. Heck, MM has already hinted at this, though not in a particularly negative spin.

Again, if it turned out that JP really did consciously decide every thing and couldn't possibly be more satisfied (as well as the rest of the band), then sure, that's his artistic integrity and you have to respect it, etc. But without that affirmation, it's fair game. If you go to a DT show with a friend, and James sings a bunch of notes flat, and your friend turns to you and goes "Man, James' performance really hurt my enjoyment of the show," you don't go "Hey, that's the way he means to sing it!" Of course he wants to sing the notes on pitch, but sometimes he doesn't fully get where he wants to go. It is entirely possible that the production of the newest album(s) suffered a similar issue (granted, not a great analogy, because you have time to revise production as opposed to one chance to get a note at a show, but it's the same idea).

I have no doubt that some of it is Petrucci's preference, mind you. I can't say I know much about the Steven Wilson stuff everybody brings up as a polar opposite to the DT production, but just from what I can infer about this Fear of a Blank Planet thing, I'm quite sure JP is going for a louder, less dynamic album than that with DT12. That much can't be questioned. But the subtle nuances and errors of the production beyond that? I'd be willing to bet that if you took another metal band's album to JP, and you played him a loud but well-produced version of it and a Death Magnetic-type produced version of it, he'd prefer the first one. Much like James hitting many notes at a show but missing a few, JP could well have gotten into the general range of production he wanted but may not have found a way to better it further, even if he would have liked to.

So in sum, asking JP to change his production preferences just for your sake would, yes, violate artistic integrity to some degree. But since we all assume that his production preferences involve some sort of good outcome (especially with him going on about the chocolate cake stuff the last album cycle), it's entirely reasonable to think that he wouldn't find the product devalued by a simple reduction of the objective mistakes, etc. Unless there's clarification as to what made these issues happen, it's totally fair to question them.

[425]

I can't say I know much about the Steven Wilson stuff everybody brings up as a polar opposite to the DT production, but just from what I can infer about this Fear of a Blank Planet thing, I'm quite sure JP is going for a louder, less dynamic album than that with DT12.

Have you heard recent albums by Steven Wilson or Porcupine Tree? Or the newest remixes of a few classic prog releases such as Close to the Edge? Or either of the two most recent Opeth albums? Steven Wilson is guy who mixed these things and takes a pretty much opposite philosophy to the modern brickwalling style. One of the best producers out there today.

So in sum, asking JP to change his production preferences just for your sake would, yes, violate artistic integrity to some degree. But since we all assume that his production preferences involve some sort of good outcome (especially with him going on about the chocolate cake stuff the last album cycle), it's entirely reasonable to think that he wouldn't find the product devalued by a simple reduction of the objective mistakes, etc. Unless there's clarification as to what made these issues happen, it's totally fair to question them.

Keep in mind that there's a difference between a hot master and a brickwalled one. Falling Into Infinity and Metallica's Black Album are fairly hot masters, but both sound pretty good. Systematic Chaos and Death Magnetic are brickwalled and sound bad.

[bosk1]

Yeah...still don't hear it.  The album sounds great to me. 

[Skeever]

*snip*

At the same time, I think it's fair to say that maybe even JP would admit he never found his desired sound. Prater? One album and done. Shirley? They tried to move on from him after one, brought him back somewhat reluctantly, but then let him go again. Northfield? Again, just on a handful of albums. And DT12 is a shuffled cast, too. It's not unusual for bands to change producers/mixers/engineers every album, but DT have done it so often that you have to wonder whether they're still not trying to find the right combination.  I will be extremely surprised if Chycki or whoever else is involved again for DT13.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

I can't say I know much about the Steven Wilson stuff everybody brings up as a polar opposite to the DT production, but just from what I can infer about this Fear of a Blank Planet thing, I'm quite sure JP is going for a louder, less dynamic album than that with DT12.

Have you heard recent albums by Steven Wilson or Porcupine Tree? Or the newest remixes of a few classic prog releases such as Close to the Edge? Or either of the two most recent Opeth albums? Steven Wilson is guy who mixed these things and takes a pretty much opposite philosophy to the modern brickwalling style. One of the best producers out there today.

I haven't, because none of those artists, from what I know, would stylistically appeal to me. But my premise was that the forum is right and that he's good.

So in sum, asking JP to change his production preferences just for your sake would, yes, violate artistic integrity to some degree. But since we all assume that his production preferences involve some sort of good outcome (especially with him going on about the chocolate cake stuff the last album cycle), it's entirely reasonable to think that he wouldn't find the product devalued by a simple reduction of the objective mistakes, etc. Unless there's clarification as to what made these issues happen, it's totally fair to question them.

Keep in mind that there's a difference between a hot master and a brickwalled one. Falling Into Infinity and Metallica's Black Album are fairly hot masters, but both sound pretty good. Systematic Chaos and Death Magnetic are brickwalled and sound bad.

Right, which is why I said we can definitely say JP likes hot masters but we can't say whether he likes brickwalled ones. Incidentally, I think Systematic Chaos sounds great. The Dream Theater albums I think sound bad are When Dream And Day Unite, A Change of Seasons, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, A Dramatic Turn of Events, and Dream Theater. My taste for SC probably is more due to me liking the mix than the master, though, I'd assume.

*snip*

At the same time, I think it's fair to say that maybe even JP would admit he never found his desired sound. Prater? One album and done. Shirley? They tried to move on from him after one, brought him back somewhat reluctantly, but then let him go again. Northfield? Again, just on a handful of albums. And DT12 is a shuffled cast, too. It's not unusual for bands to change producers/mixers/engineers every album, but DT have done it so often that you have to wonder whether they're still not trying to find the right combination.  I will be extremely surprised if Chycki or whoever else is involved again for DT13.

I actually wouldn't be, but that's more based off James' ties to Chycki than anything substantive. I mean, JP's the type who's usually going to spin things positively in interviews, so it's hard to know where he is with that. If Chycki were in for DT13, would we know by know? When would we? I guess I was assuming he was back, but now that you mention it that's more than a bit presumptuous on my part. If he isn't back, then maybe that's a further sign that indeed, John Petrucci does not think Dream Theater is the most incredibly mastered album anyone has ever concocted.

Other than that, it seems we're on the same page.

[rumborak]

One underappreciated aspect in this is also, I think DT's songwriting has become increasingly "sonically dense". There is almost no point in time where there isn't drums, bass, doubled guitars, and JR's gnarly pig behind it.
If you got that kind of sonic density, compressing it so much is like cranking up the contrast on a Pollock painting: it becomes overwhelming, and just becomes this noise of colors.
So, I think DT *could* have an albums with that hotness and still have it sound good, but they would have to orchestrate then more by having instruments be quiet more often.

[Implode]

[The Presence of Frenemies]

One underappreciated aspect in this is also, I think DT's songwriting has become increasingly "sonically dense". There is almost no point in time where there isn't drums, bass, doubled guitars, and JR's gnarly pig behind it.
If you got that kind of sonic density, compressing it so much is like cranking up the contrast on a Pollock painting: it becomes overwhelming, and just becomes this noise of colors.
So, I think DT *could* have an albums with that hotness and still have it sound good, but they would have to orchestrate then more by having instruments be quiet more often.

My vote goes to the pig.

Also, because I watched the Metallica GH vs. DM vid someone posted earlier in the thread, this popped up in my YT suggestions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPu0DKyGgZI Pretty damn funny.

[BlobVanDam]

To answer that huge wall of stuff from a page back, Metallica did not intend AJFA or DM to sound the way they did. They've admitted that the bass on AJFA is way too low, and said they weren't even there when DM was mastered and weren't in good conditions when they heard the final master and didn't notice any problem at the time. Anything else is just PR to sell a subpar recording.

Some people are waaaay overthinking this. Musicians are musicians, and they don't usually have experience with mixing or mastering an album. An album ultimately sounds the way it does because other people are doing the job, which is good, because many musicians likely spend far too long around loud noises to have the best of ears.

I don't believe in this idea that something is assumed exactly as the artist intended, and somehow therefore beyond valid criticism. If an artist intends an album to sound like crap, that just makes them wrong.

[425]

Blob just made a spot-on post with the brevity that I clearly lack.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Blob just made a spot-on post with the brevity that I clearly lack.

Seconded.

[Kotowboy]

I find it hilarious when Metallica sheep are like : "  AJFA sounds perfect the way it is "

Right - so given the choice between the way it sounds now and having a full sound with loud bass like The Black Album - you'd choose the bass less thin sound of current AJFA ?

How many times have you read : " Man - Master Of Puppets is a great album - but what it really needs is less bass ". 

I also find it funny when they say things like : " Every Metallica album is 10/10. Even St. Anger because it's still METALLICA  "


 

I  Green Day but even I can rank their albums objectively and criticise certain songs I don't like.



The difference being that Green Day don't make bad albums.

[Skeever]

The difference being that Green Day don't make bad albums.

lol

[Stadler]

To answer that huge wall of stuff from a page back, Metallica did not intend AJFA or DM to sound the way they did. They've admitted that the bass on AJFA is way too low, and said they weren't even there when DM was mastered and weren't in good conditions when they heard the final master and didn't notice any problem at the time. Anything else is just PR to sell a subpar recording.

Some people are waaaay overthinking this. Musicians are musicians, and they don't usually have experience with mixing or mastering an album. An album ultimately sounds the way it does because other people are doing the job, which is good, because many musicians likely spend far too long around loud noises to have the best of ears.

I don't believe in this idea that something is assumed exactly as the artist intended, and somehow therefore beyond valid criticism. If an artist intends an album to sound like crap, that just makes them wrong.

And since I contributed a lot to that "huge wall of stuff from way back", I think you're way UNDER thinking this.    So we're even.

That "they weren't even there" doesn't mean they didn't "hear it and sign off on it".   How many times have you read stories about musicians "going down to the pub" while the engineer/producer mixed the material, and they came back and were either blown away or dumbfounded?  Few musicians hesitate to criticize the mix.  Few musicians hesitate to criticize the production (hell, just read "Lifting Shadows" to get a full dose of that).  So why the apparent reluctance to criticize the mastering engineers?    Why assume that the artist has total control for 99% of the process then mysteriously abdicates all responsibility at the very end?  That's like Julian Edelman running a kickoff all the way back to the other team's one yard line and placing the ball on the turf.  Or handing it to someone else.   It defies logic.   Do you HONESTLY think control freaks like Hetfield and Ulrich, or Simmons, or Harris*, or Portnoy, or Tyler just willingly do 99% of the work and say "Fuck it!" for the final step? 

(And I find the whole "the musicians themselves have bad ears but everyone around them and all the fans that agree with you don't" argument to be comical almost to the point of satire.  That is a RIDICULOUS argument unsupported by any facts.)

[rumborak]

I don't think it's JP's ears. I think it's his lack of perspective at the end of several months of working on the material. That's especially why having a separate mastering person is good, because they come in without any preconceptions about the album, and will spot immediate issues.

[BlobVanDam]

To answer that huge wall of stuff from a page back, Metallica did not intend AJFA or DM to sound the way they did. They've admitted that the bass on AJFA is way too low, and said they weren't even there when DM was mastered and weren't in good conditions when they heard the final master and didn't notice any problem at the time. Anything else is just PR to sell a subpar recording.

Some people are waaaay overthinking this. Musicians are musicians, and they don't usually have experience with mixing or mastering an album. An album ultimately sounds the way it does because other people are doing the job, which is good, because many musicians likely spend far too long around loud noises to have the best of ears.

I don't believe in this idea that something is assumed exactly as the artist intended, and somehow therefore beyond valid criticism. If an artist intends an album to sound like crap, that just makes them wrong.

And since I contributed a lot to that "huge wall of stuff from way back", I think you're way UNDER thinking this.    So we're even.

That "they weren't even there" doesn't mean they didn't "hear it and sign off on it".   How many times have you read stories about musicians "going down to the pub" while the engineer/producer mixed the material, and they came back and were either blown away or dumbfounded?  Few musicians hesitate to criticize the mix.  Few musicians hesitate to criticize the production (hell, just read "Lifting Shadows" to get a full dose of that).  So why the apparent reluctance to criticize the mastering engineers?    Why assume that the artist has total control for 99% of the process then mysteriously abdicates all responsibility at the very end?  That's like Julian Edelman running a kickoff all the way back to the other team's one yard line and placing the ball on the turf.  Or handing it to someone else.   It defies logic.   Do you HONESTLY think control freaks like Hetfield and Ulrich, or Simmons, or Harris*, or Portnoy, or Tyler just willingly do 99% of the work and say "Fuck it!" for the final step? 

(And I find the whole "the musicians themselves have bad ears but everyone around them and all the fans that agree with you don't" argument to be comical almost to the point of satire.  That is a RIDICULOUS argument unsupported by any facts.)

It's also a ridiculous argument unsupported by anything I actually said.  My hyperbole senses are tingling!

Much like the average person, a lot of musicians don't know the nerdy technical stuff. They know their own instruments well, but they're not all audiophiles with valid input to make on every other sonic aspect. I'm not saying they're clueless, but unless they're also experienced in that role (like Steven Wilson for example), then their opinion isn't necessarily worth more than anyone else's.

More importantly, most musicians simply don't have complete input on every stage, when you've also got the rest of the band each with their own opinions, along with the engineer/producer/record label all having more input on the matter. A lot of cooks in the kitchen, and they won't all agree, and they won't all get their way.

When it comes to mastering, the record label gets final say on what gets released, and mastering is where record labels most like to use/abuse that right. There's a reason albums are compressed so much these days, and it has absolutely nothing to do with a band's artistic freedom. It has to do with record labels catering to the lowest common denominator of consumers and devices, and playing on known human psychology pertaining to audio perception to maximize album sales. That's the reality of the music business.

[Calvin6s]

The funny thing is when the max-compression trend started, I thought it was just age affecting my hearing.  Not being able to hear "the room" or "air" of recordings like I used to.  Then you throw on an older recording.  It sounds less dynamic at first, but that's just because it is not as hot.  You turn your volume up and viola.  Nice volume levels AND DYNAMICS.

All of the A:B youtube videos and people complaining about it is a good thing.  Producer X does it because he thinks that is just what everybody wants.  The backlash lets them know we really don't want it.

Hopefully there isn't an overreaction where we throw out all the studio tools.  Kind of like when shredders were talking about "I just need a guitar, an amp and the blues."  Everything has its place.

[Kotowboy]

The difference being that Green Day don't make bad albums.

lol

I meant in a St Anger what the fuck were they thinking sounds like complete arse kind of way.

[JayOctavarium]

They should bring in Rob Cavallo to produce. I am actually kinda serious. lol

[?]

Record labels sometimes force bands to compress the f*ck out of their albums, thinking they can sell more records that way, but the fact that Roadrunner has released very dynamically mastered albums by Porcupine Tree and Opeth that have charted and sold pretty well makes me believe DT could also put out an album that isn't brickwalled to death if they wanted to.

[Kotowboy]

They should bring in Rob Cavallo to produce. I am actually kinda serious. lol

Rob's Green Day albums are easily their best sounding.  Butch Vig distorted 21st Century Breakdown. it's not Death Magnetic bad but it's not far off.

[425]

It's also a ridiculous argument unsupported by anything I actually said.  My hyperbole senses are tingling!

Much like the average person, a lot of musicians don't know the nerdy technical stuff. They know their own instruments well, but they're not all audiophiles with valid input to make on every other sonic aspect. I'm not saying they're clueless, but unless they're also experienced in that role (like Steven Wilson for example), then their opinion isn't necessarily worth more than anyone else's.

More importantly, most musicians simply don't have complete input on every stage, when you've also got the rest of the band each with their own opinions, along with the engineer/producer/record label all having more input on the matter. A lot of cooks in the kitchen, and they won't all agree, and they won't all get their way.

When it comes to mastering, the record label gets final say on what gets released, and mastering is where record labels most like to use/abuse that right. There's a reason albums are compressed so much these days, and it has absolutely nothing to do with a band's artistic freedom. It has to do with record labels catering to the lowest common denominator of consumers and devices, and playing on known human psychology pertaining to audio perception to maximize album sales. That's the reality of the music business.

This, plus in some cases the musicians genuinely can't hear the compression problem. Some people honestly can't. And I somewhat doubt that, after 30+ years of playing drums in Metallica, Lars Ulrich has the best hearing around.

The funny thing is when the max-compression trend started, I thought it was just age affecting my hearing.  Not being able to hear "the room" or "air" of recordings like I used to.  Then you throw on an older recording.  It sounds less dynamic at first, but that's just because it is not as hot.  You turn your volume up and viola.  Nice volume levels AND DYNAMICS.

Testimony like this is why I find it hard to believe that there are still people who dismiss the issue of the loudness war entirely.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

My guess is that when it comes to musicians evaluating how their music sounds, mastering is way down the list of concerns. I imagine Petrucci (or anyone else) is going to be far more focused on the tone of the instruments and the relative volume of each in sections (i.e. whether a guitar solo is mixed loud enough, whether the vocals cut through, etc.). It's easy to imagine a producer who a) doesn't deal with masters for a living and b) is so close to the product, being in the band, signing off on anything that represents the general instrument tones and relative emphasis of parts that he/the band wants without much regard to the auxiliary sound issues. Given the sonic density of DT music, the path of least resistance is the brickwalling. And there you have it.

[Kotowboy]

  haha


Fuck You Rick Berman ! You ruined this too ?!


Wait that ain't Rick Berman.....What is it with Ricks ?!