Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[erwinrafael]

If you can not hear JMX in the Dream Theater album, you must be deaf. The bass is loud in this album, I would not understand how somebody would need to exert effort to hear it.

[James Mypetgiress]

If you can not hear JMX in the Dream Theater album, you must be deaf. The bass is loud in this album, I would not understand how somebody would need to exert effort to hear it.

I can't hear it. The best album for clear bass, IMO was ToT. Loved that album

[erwinrafael]

Really? Even in songs like TLG, StR, AftR and IT? Along for the Ride specifically has very distinct bass lines. The bass guitar is loud. It is  trebly though, I would like the bass to have more depth.

FII has the best bass sound for a DT album. The bass is so clear in that album that you can hear the nuances in the bass playing in Trial of Tears.

[The Holy Tune]

Really? Even in songs like TLG, StR, AftR and IT? Along for the Ride specifically has very distinct bass lines. The bass guitar is loud. It is  trebly though, I would have more depth.

FII jas the best bass sound for a DT album. The bass is so clear in that album that you can hear the nuances in the bass playing in Trial of Tears.

I can hear most of the bass in any song from the latest album, but I want the sound to be as clear as in FII in any of the albums, not only one album to be shown as an example to how bass should sound. Any of us can hear JP playing almost any of his notes, not many of us can notice lots of JMX's notes. I would love everyone to be as audible as possible. When I listen to Rush, the bass lines are just striking, I'd like the same to happen with DT.

[rumborak]

I can hear some of it, but I have to strain my ear a lot to do so. For the most part the bass is buried under the doubled guitars and the bass drum. Even during guitar solos, where you would think you'd hear the bass clearly, you actually get three guitars on top of each other.

[erwinrafael]

Wow. I would love to see how crappy all your equipment are that you had to strain yourselves to hear the bass. Even in the guitar solo section of TLG? Or Surrender to Reason? Or the keyboard solo of AFTR where JMX is almost doing his own solo contrasting JR? Even in IT, the bass is so audible, I can not imagine how people would need to strain to hear it. I am even using my normal earphones now, not the in-ears, just to see if I am not overstating my case.

[rumborak]

TlG stands out as the easiest to discern the bass, but that's probably because they were going for a Rush mix in their Rush song.
But, False Awakening Suite for example, I can't tell whether there is a bass player or not.

[orcus116]

The bass production always seems to be sort of muddy so it gets lost in the mix outside of the fact that it's usually buried. Most of the time I have trouble even hearing the presence of the bass let along the actual bass part.

[King Postwhore]

TlG stands out as the easiest to discern the bass, but that's probably because they were going for a Rush mix in their Rush song.
But, False Awakening Suite for example, I can't tell whether there is a bass player or not.

Yeah, They went for that Geddy bright, treble, growling bass sound.  I'm all for bass being in the front in all my music.

[nikatapi]

Yeah if there is one thing right with DT12 sound, is JMX being audible and upfront in most of the album. Even though the sound is a little trembly, it's still an improvement, and the drum & bass sections in TLG and IT are very cool.

[abydos]

So, what do you guys think about MP's performance in OSI? Still feel like it's "the same fills" etc, or do you count it as part of his more creative days prior to Octavarium-BCSL?

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I do like a lot his OSI performance. I mean, it sounds like MP (in a good way), but nowhere in a level of predictiveness as his latest recordings.

[rumborak]

Wait, is there anything new? Or are you referring to the first two OSI albums?

[Lucien]

Wow. I would love to see how crappy all your equipment are that you had to strain yourselves to hear the bass. Even in the guitar solo section of TLG? Or Surrender to Reason? Or the keyboard solo of AFTR where JMX is almost doing his own solo contrasting JR? Even in IT, the bass is so audible, I can not imagine how people would need to strain to hear it. I am even using my normal earphones now, not the in-ears, just to see if I am not overstating my case.

The point is that the bass should be loud enough to hear on ANY equipment. Listen to basically any song by Rush, and you'll instantly hear it when it's there.

[abydos]

Wait, is there anything new? Or are you referring to the first two OSI albums?

Sadly, nothing new with or without MP. Was referring to just the first two.

[?]

One drum part in shutDOWN reminded me of The Great Debate ("some of us believe...") on first listen already, but I guess overall the more soundscape-oriented style of music combined with KM chopping up and editing the drum parts makes MP's drumming in OSI a little different from how he usually plays.

[LCArenas]

Blind Faith is my favorite song of Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence's first CD. And if we count the second as individual songs, it's also my favorite overall.

[erwinrafael]

Wow. I would love to see how crappy all your equipment are that you had to strain yourselves to hear the bass. Even in the guitar solo section of TLG? Or Surrender to Reason? Or the keyboard solo of AFTR where JMX is almost doing his own solo contrasting JR? Even in IT, the bass is so audible, I can not imagine how people would need to strain to hear it. I am even using my normal earphones now, not the in-ears, just to see if I am not overstating my case.

The point is that the bass should be loud enough to hear on ANY equipment. Listen to basically any song by Rush, and you'll instantly hear it when it's there.

My point is that I listened using even my ordinary equipment and I still heard the bass. So I can not imagine how someone else can not hear it because it is quite up front in this album.

Now FAS is mentioned. That is not representative of the album. The reason the bass is not quite distinguishable in that piece is because of the arrangment and composition. It's like the layered parts of the SDOIT Overture where the bass is not readily distinguishable from the rhythm guitars.

[The Holy Tune]

Wow. I would love to see how crappy all your equipment are that you had to strain yourselves to hear the bass. Even in the guitar solo section of TLG? Or Surrender to Reason? Or the keyboard solo of AFTR where JMX is almost doing his own solo contrasting JR? Even in IT, the bass is so audible, I can not imagine how people would need to strain to hear it. I am even using my normal earphones now, not the in-ears, just to see if I am not overstating my case.

The point is that the bass should be loud enough to hear on ANY equipment. Listen to basically any song by Rush, and you'll instantly hear it when it's there.

My point is that I listened using even my ordinary equipment and I still heard the bass. So I can not imagine how someone else can not hear it because it is quite up front in this album.

Now FAS is mentioned. That is not representative of the album. The reason the bass is not quite distinguishable in that piece is because of the arrangment and composition. It's like the layered parts of the SDOIT Overture where the bass is not readily distinguishable from the rhythm guitars.

Neither do I or Lucien try to say that JMX isn't audible at all. Doesn't Alex Lifeson play any rhythm guitars in Rush songs? Even still, Geddy Lee is very audible. I wish to hear a DT album/record where JMX doesn't get buried beneath JP's playing. We can already hear JMX in lead guitar solos, but when the rhythm guitar kicks in, he's pretty hard to hear. Wouldn't it be much better if that didn't happen?

I spoke for you too without asking Lucien, hope we both agree on the same opinions

[Lucien]

Wow. I would love to see how crappy all your equipment are that you had to strain yourselves to hear the bass. Even in the guitar solo section of TLG? Or Surrender to Reason? Or the keyboard solo of AFTR where JMX is almost doing his own solo contrasting JR? Even in IT, the bass is so audible, I can not imagine how people would need to strain to hear it. I am even using my normal earphones now, not the in-ears, just to see if I am not overstating my case.

The point is that the bass should be loud enough to hear on ANY equipment. Listen to basically any song by Rush, and you'll instantly hear it when it's there.

My point is that I listened using even my ordinary equipment and I still heard the bass. So I can not imagine how someone else can not hear it because it is quite up front in this album.

Now FAS is mentioned. That is not representative of the album. The reason the bass is not quite distinguishable in that piece is because of the arrangment and composition. It's like the layered parts of the SDOIT Overture where the bass is not readily distinguishable from the rhythm guitars.

Neither do I or Lucien try to say that JMX isn't audible at all. Doesn't Alex Lifeson play any rhythm guitars in Rush songs? Even still, Geddy Lee is very audible. I wish to hear a DT album/record where JMX doesn't get buried beneath JP's playing. We can already hear JMX in lead guitar solos, but when the rhythm guitar kicks in, he's pretty hard to hear. Wouldn't it be much better if that didn't happen?

I spoke for you too without asking Lucien, hope we both agree on the same opinions

Oh, I completely agree 

[Rodni Demental]

DT12 was a step in the right direction for JMX as far as being more audible individually. I also think his role is understated in the mix and sound of DT. He compliments JPs sound and fills up the rest of the sonic space, gives it more punch. If anything it's a testament to his technique and skill that he's so well in time with the drums and rhythm guitars that it just becomes one with the whole unit. But, take him out of the mix, and some of the music would feel more empty and hollow. People claim they can't hear him, but I think you can, you just give credit to JP because his tone stands out more, when really it's a combination of the Johns that makes up the overall sound. He's not necessarily completely buried, he's just highly integrated and that's part of what makes the DT sound.

[erwinrafael]

Neither do I or Lucien try to say that JMX isn't audible at all. Doesn't Alex Lifeson play any rhythm guitars in Rush songs? Even still, Geddy Lee is very audible. I wish to hear a DT album/record where JMX doesn't get buried beneath JP's playing. We can already hear JMX in lead guitar solos, but when the rhythm guitar kicks in, he's pretty hard to hear. Wouldn't it be much better if that didn't happen?

I spoke for you too without asking Lucien, hope we both agree on the same opinions

My point is that JMX is already plenty audible. Yes, JP is too loud and I would love it if he would turn it down a notch in the next album (which is why I sometimes EQ down the lower mids when I listen). But JMX is audible and I did not even need to strain to hear him, whether I use my in-ears or my normal listening devices, or whether I use the mp3s or the HDTracks. The Alex Lifeson rhythm guitar comparison I think is a bit apples and oranges becase Rush's music is not really metal, so I would not expect the guitars to be as loud or hitting registers as low as DT's.

I was reacting to these statements:

I can hear some of it, but I have to strain my ear a lot to do so.

I can't hear it.

I give too much effort to notice JMX behind MM's bass drum.

And I repeatedly listened to the songs to see where I had to exert effort to hear JMX. rumborak mentioned FAS, and I agree that JMX is quite hard to distinguish in that song, but I think it is a matter of arrangement where they are trying to mimic an orchestra. So the effect is like how the bass sounded in the Overture of SDOIT. But outside of FAS, I have yet to find a song where JMX is so buried that I had to make an effort to hear him. Are there any specific songs or instances where I can hear this JMX buried in the mix?

The point is that the bass should be loud enough to hear on ANY equipment.

Music plays differently on different equipment. The compressed mp3s play well on car speakers and in loud environments while listening to mobile devices. But they sound like crap in good equipment and with in-ears. For the bass mix, I find that the Dream Theater album already has very audible bass in normal equipment. The consequence of that is that it could sometimes be overbearing when I use my in-ears. For example, TLG's bass is really loud when I use in-ears, it's almost like JMX is using a Taurus pedal the whole song.

[Lucien]

JMX is an entire member of DT, he should be able to be heard wherever he plays. Every single other instrument plays louder than him. If he's audible during a few songs, great! But he should ALWAYS be audible. Very audible.

[erwinrafael]

JMX is an entire member of DT, he should be able to be heard wherever he plays. Every single other instrument plays louder than him. If he's audible during a few songs, great! But he should ALWAYS be audible. Very audible.

Give me a song in DT12 where he is not audible.

[theseoafs]

JMX is an entire member of DT, he should be able to be heard wherever he plays. Every single other instrument plays louder than him. If he's audible during a few songs, great! But he should ALWAYS be audible. Very audible.

Give me a song in DT12 where he is not audible.

False Awakening Suite.

But more than that, the problem really is that JMX is only audible at particular points, which is something you really can only say about him (that is the other members of the band are always audible when they're playing).  Sure, he's audible during the solos of a few songs on DT12, but when his designated "moment" is over, he drifts right back into the background, the mix muddying everything he plays.  It shouldn't be like that.

[erwinrafael]

JMX is an entire member of DT, he should be able to be heard wherever he plays. Every single other instrument plays louder than him. If he's audible during a few songs, great! But he should ALWAYS be audible. Very audible.

Give me a song in DT12 where he is not audible.

False Awakening Suite.

But more than that, the problem really is that JMX is only audible at particular points, which is something you really can only say about him (that is the other members of the band are always audible when they're playing).  Sure, he's audible during the solos of a few songs on DT12, but when his designated "moment" is over, he drifts right back into the background, the mix muddying everything he plays.  It shouldn't be like that.

Yeah, FAS, but again, it is mixed ala SDOIT overture so the layered sound is what makes JMX sound buried. Listen to the Overture and you will find the same effect on JMX's sound in that song.

As to him only being heard in moments, I still can not find that description in any of the other DT12 songs. I think what most of you are describing are the moments where there are lots of heavy riffing. But bass playing usually aims for an integrated sound (as Rodni mentioned), giving the rhythm section the base, the foundation, which the other instruments build up on.

JMX has been playing this way since the start. Go back to Caught in a Web and The Mirror/Lie, for example. Or the heavy riffing part in songs like Peruvian Skies and Scarred. Or the intro of Beyond This Life. The bass integrates to the riffing of JP that it sometimes sounds indistinguishable unless you have trained your ears to hear the registers of the bass guitar.

[BlobVanDam]

A lot of the time when JM blends in, it's because he's doubling the guitar, but more often than not, I can make out the bass guitar fine. I find modern rock/metal mixes in general tend to make the bass guitar less distinguishable and more of a "presence" in the low end, unlike older recordings where everything was more balanced without being EQ'd into such a specific register.

I can't say I really hear him on FAS, but I don't think he's doing more than doubling there either, given the orchestral style arrangement. But I can't even make out his rhythm there, whether he's playing 8ths or 16ths or whatever. For the most part, he's pretty audible on DT12, and you can make out that nice bass attack, but he still blends into the background on the heavier stuff.

I'd love to hear a DT album with a more "classic" mix, something like FII.

[erwinrafael]

I love MM's drumming on DT12, I find it fresh, exciting and inspiring. He definitely injected DT with some new life.

I would say that MM brought back an integrated sound to DT. I can understand how some could find MM's drumming underwhelming since his drumming really is not about doing complex fills. It's about keeping the music together. I previously used the analogy that MP plays drums like a lead guitarist while MM plays drums like a bassist. If you are looking for tasty fills, as some would call it, you won't really get much of that from MM. He composes his parts to highlight what the others are doing, to point you to the direction the song is going, to tie the different parts together. His parts do not sound flashy on the surface, but when I look at it in the context of the song, I always find myself smiling. In IT, he was outstanding. Going up and down the scale following the melodies of the song, even the sticks hitting the rims are going up and down the scale. Then there are portions where he is highlighting two musical parts at once. Just amazing drumming from the standpoint of the song as a whole.

I find the following comparison illustrative of the difference between MP and MM's style: the bridge and instrumental section of Wither and the instrumental section of The Bigger Picture. Both parts have the other members dialing down the wankiness and going for a cinematic feel, with slow melodies and harmonies. For MP, he does one creative fill after another, like he's trying to fill up the space. MM, on the other hand, lets the thing simmer in the initial half. And then in the second half, he does some snare and tom fills, but his focus is actually on highlighting the harmony using his ride cymbals which matches the harmony note for note. Love it. Anyway, I just think this comparison sort of highlights the difference in approaches between MP and MM.

[rumborak]

I think him being able and willing to step back and play for the song is all nice and everything. But it's a bit like buying a Ferrari and then only using for grocery shopping trips.
I don't know. When I heard that DT was gonna get a seasoned Berklee professor with a huge drum kit, I was excited to hear some crazy shit being played. Insane rhythms, different styles, that kind of stuff. Playing for the song, no offense to MM, a lot of drummers can do that.

[erwinrafael]

Can you cite specific examples where other drummers played to the song the way MM did in IT, for example, where the drums follow going up and down the scale, different rides and hi-hats are used depending on whether a higher or a lower key is appropriate, or you have the bass drums complementing the bass guitar while the other drums are simultaneously complementing the other instruments? Or you have the left part of the body drumming to complement the keyboard while the right part is doing another pattern? Even the simpler patterns like a higher-pitched ride complementing a higher pitched harmony like the way he did in The Bigger Picture, have you heard another drummer play like that?

I actually got what I expected from a Berklee professor: an intelligent, purposive and disciplined drummer. Not somebody who shows off technique just for the sake of it.

[hefdaddy42]

I'd love to hear a DT album with a more "classic" mix, something like FII.

That would be fantastic.

[rumborak]

I actually got what I expected from a Berklee professor: an intelligent, purposive and disciplined drummer. Not somebody who shows off technique just for the sake of it.

I don't think MP ever did that.
I'm just saying, one of the aspects of DT that I always loved was that, while seemingly every instrument was kinda doing its own thing, they all came together to form a cohesive whole. Like, as if every instrument had a piece to the puzzle that on its made no sense, but when it all gets put on the floor together, the lines add together to form a picture you never would have guessed.
When MM follows the guitar with the bass drum, and the keyboard with the toms, and whatnot, that's all very skillful indeed. Just not what I thought made DT stand out.

[erwinrafael]

I actually got what I expected from a Berklee professor: an intelligent, purposive and disciplined drummer. Not somebody who shows off technique just for the sake of it.

I don't think MP ever did that.

I was not talking about MP. I was reacting to your expectation of MM to show off crazy rhythms and techniques because he is a Berklee prof. My point is that one of the defining traits of an academic is discipline and that was what MM displayed in DT so far. He would bring out his bag of tricks when the song calls for it.

I am pretty sure we would hear more crazy stuff from MM if the songs in the next album calls for it. The short songs of DT12 does not really allow that much room for showcasing MM's skill set, which is why he really shone in IT. He had room to show off crazy skills in that longer format. It's like MP in FII. Most of his drumming skills are showcased in LITS and TOT, not the shorter songs. MM did do some amazing stuff in the short songs especially Surrender to Reason and TLG.

[King Postwhore]

Yet if you've followed his career, he's never done that. 

[erwinrafael]

Yes, because Egg Zooming is not amazing.