Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[BlobVanDam]

OTBOA is the only "WOW" song on the album ?! 


Yeah, that's controversial.

Who said that?

I'd personally consider it one of the blandest songs on the album, if not in DT's discography.

[King Postwhore]

OTBOA is the only "WOW" song on the album ?! 


Yeah, that's controversial.

Who said that?

I'd personally consider it one of the blandest songs on the album, if not in DT's discography.

I saw this deceleration on my phone and now on my computer, it's not here.

I should have qouted it unless someone changed their post.  I though it was a crazy deceleration.

[Calvin6s]

Scarred is a one of DT's few legitimate masterpieces.

That's such an overused word now. 

I totally agree.  In fact, I originally wrote what you did almost word for word in response to the *fixed*, but instead brought up Louis CK's joke on the word hilarious (which says the same thing if you saw his act on this)

To put this in context, here are probably my top 10 DT songs in order with what keeps them from being #1 in (parenthesis)
1.  Scarred    (it is perfect)
2.  Voices    (LaBrie's grating vocals during "Thought disorder …")
3.  Learning to Live    (none)
4.  Take the Time (none)
5.  Misunderstood    (none)
6.  Lines in the Sand    (Flawless … except the "In my stream of consciousness" section)
7.  6:00    (none)
8.  Finally Free    (Although the sound effects and dialogue are necessary for the album, it ruins the song as a stand alone)
9.  A Change of Seasons    (could have absolutely been cut down)
10.  Octavarium    (Great, until the Rudess influence on the jams)
11.  Trial of Tears    (Can't put my finger on why it isn't top 5 other than it isn't)

So I think I used the word masterpiece correctly.  And I think the top 8 are so close to masterpiece that I'm fine with them being called a masterpiece.

Voices would be #1 if LaBrie re-recorded that one verse (which instrumentally is killer).  The top 8 could all be masterpieces with the slightest of tweaks. 

And a song like The Mirror could have been awesome as the intro during the I&W tour was perfection.  The verse is just as great.  Then the prechorus kills one of the greatest songs of all time.  Reinsert the delay-whammy bar live intro, tweak the (pre)chorus, add the Sherinian contributions and it would be at least top 5.

[Calvin6s]

OTBOA is the only "WOW" song on the album ?! 


Yeah, that's controversial.

Who said that?

I'd personally consider it one of the blandest songs on the album, if not in DT's discography.

Well, to go back to controversy, the majority of the ADToE's album is heavily based off Images and Words.  Yeah.  I'm one of those and I have no doubt in my mind.

[King Postwhore]

If they based it on going back to a certain album, what's the big whoop?  The wanted to get back to a certain style and used it as a template that they made.

I don't get why that's a big deal to sum?

[Calvin6s]

If they based it on going back to a certain album, what's the big whoop?  The wanted to get back to a certain style and used it as a template that they made.

I don't get why that's a big deal to sum?

It isn't that big of a deal to those that accept it.  It seems to be a huge deal to those that won't admit it.

My theory is that Petrucci-Portnoy had a great songwriting team where Petrucci came up with the majority of the music, and Portnoy had a knack for arranging/shaping it.  Petrucci didn't have to develop that part of his composing abilities because Portnoy had it covered.  So when Portnoy left, Petrucci decided to use an iconic album to remind himself what made them so great in the fist place.

Or maybe he even said "our fans keep telling us how great I&W is two decades after the fact.  If they complain this album doesn't have the same style as I&W, then we've proven our fans are .... not as musically adept as they pretend."

The album was good, but I prefer the I&W counterparts.

[King Postwhore]

I'm assuming that John thought DT was getting away from what he liked as well as the band, they wanted to go back to a certain brand they has and it was that template.  So many bands do this all the time.

[Calvin6s]

I'm assuming that John thought DT was getting away from what he liked as well as the band, they wanted to go back to a certain brand they has and it was that template.  So many bands do this all the time.

Yes, but when other bands do it, they are copying intro - verse - chorus - verse - chorus - bridge - repeating chorus outro, which really isn't a unique formula.  Copying a unique formula stands out a bit more.  Kind of like the difference between a 3 number lottery and 12 number lottery.  The 12 number lottery isn't just 4x different.

[King Postwhore]

I think people look into it too much and miss the joy from the music they are listening to.

[Calvin6s]

I think people look into it too much and miss the joy from the music they are listening to.

If anything, it gives me more pleasure.  I already went through my phase of writing stuff out by others, but it was a great phase to go through and adds so much to the listening experience.

Here's an example of me during that phase back when DT fans used to talk via ytsejam mailing list and IRC:
ytsejam archive
Just do a search for Calvin6s and read the text breakdown of the Learning to Live intro.  That intro is as cool today as it was 24 years ago.  (and sure enough, there was a debate back then talking about not being able to enjoy music if you analyze it).

[Mosh]

OTBOA is the only "WOW" song on the album ?! 


Yeah, that's controversial.

Who said that?

I'd personally consider it one of the blandest songs on the album, if not in DT's discography.

I saw this deceleration on my phone and now on my computer, it's not here.

I should have qouted it unless someone changed their post.  I though it was a crazy deceleration.

Well it wasn't me but I certainly think OTBOA is the only great song on that album. Not that the others are bad, but OTBOA is a pretty big step above them.

[King Postwhore]

Listen, I get into all the little nuances but not the ones that take away from the enjoyment.  That may be just your personality but I tend not to dwell on such things to ruin the experience.

Now over time an album looses it's flavor or doesn't capture my imagination but not for the things you are looking for.

[Stadler]

If they based it on going back to a certain album, what's the big whoop?  The wanted to get back to a certain style and used it as a template that they made.

I don't get why that's a big deal to sum?

It isn't that big of a deal to those that accept it.  It seems to be a huge deal to those that won't admit it.

My theory is that Petrucci-Portnoy had a great songwriting team where Petrucci came up with the majority of the music, and Portnoy had a knack for arranging/shaping it.  Petrucci didn't have to develop that part of his composing abilities because Portnoy had it covered.  So when Portnoy left, Petrucci decided to use an iconic album to remind himself what made them so great in the fist place.

Or maybe he even said "our fans keep telling us how great I&W is two decades after the fact.  If they complain this album doesn't have the same style as I&W, then we've proven our fans are .... not as musically adept as they pretend."

The album was good, but I prefer the I&W counterparts.

Not arguing, since I largely agree with you both, but you are sort of glossing over a big part of the context of this 'controversy', and that is time and place.  The way you describe it isn't so bad, but you are talking about the FIRST release after an acrimonious breakup between what you yourself label the key song-writing partnership.     Sure, I can go to whatever restaurant I want, but if I get divorced, and take my new girlfriend to New Orleans (from CT) and take her to the same restaurant where I proposed to my first wife (and she accepted), then it's got context that can't be overlooked.

Again, I'm not suggesting right or wrong, but merely pointing out that there are perhaps more variables than are being considered so far.   

[metallitroy]

Mangini is every bit as good as Portnoy, and adds something new to the band that I like.

[Kotowboy]

Mangini is every bit as good as Portnoy, and adds something new to the band that I like.

Not only this but he's far superior too. At least on a batshit insanely technical level.

[rumborak]

I could cautiously agree with that. On a technical level, MM is clearly far more capable than MP.
But, at the same time I have to say, I've been massively underwhelmed by how that has translated onto both albums so far with him. When ADTOE came out, there was a pretty sizeable disappointment, but it was all caveated by "well, JP wrote the basic drum parts. We can't judge MM based on that.". With DT12 we were supposed to hear "MM unleashed ", but what we mostly got was "MM with horrible drum sound".
So, after a solid 2.5 hours of recorded material with him, I have to summarize so far that he neither is on the level of other drumming greats (Peart, Harrison etc), nor in fact MP when he was on top.

[hefdaddy42]

I would love to see a few examples of "MM Unleashed", but I get the feeling that an entire album like that would be unsatisfying.  You know, like Spiral Architect or something.

[rumborak]

A whole album would of course be overwhelming. But, they easily could have snuck in something like the beginning of 6:00. Show that he can groove, and at the same time do crazy stuff. The only thing I can think of is in Enigma Machine, but I personally find that drum fill awful. It sounds like when you put your whole hand on a MIDI keyboard that has drum sounds loaded.

[Stadler]

I could cautiously agree with that. On a technical level, MM is clearly far more capable than MP.
But, at the same time I have to say, I've been massively underwhelmed by how that has translated onto both albums so far with him. When ADTOE came out, there was a pretty sizeable disappointment, but it was all caveated by "well, JP wrote the basic drum parts. We can't judge MM based on that.". With DT12 we were supposed to hear "MM unleashed ", but what we mostly got was "MM with horrible drum sound".
So, after a solid 2.5 hours of recorded material with him, I have to summarize so far that he neither is on the level of other drumming greats (Peart, Harrison etc), nor in fact MP when he was on top.

Michael Bourn is one of, if not THE, fastest players in baseball.   Who would you have on your team:  Michael Bourn or Mike Trout?

I would "cautiously" say away from words like "clearly" or "was on top"; some of the stuff on the recent TA and NM releases is as tasty as anything MP has released, and I do consider him in the drumming greats (Peart, Harrison, etc.). 

[Calvin6s]

I would love to see a few examples of "MM Unleashed", but I get the feeling that an entire album like that would be unsatisfying.  You know, like Spiral Architect or something.

Unleashed doesn't have to mean notes per second.  I can hear the change in the songs with Jordan, and I'm not talking about the 1920s ragtime piano bits.  He affected the chord structures.  Mangini has had much less effect on the songs.

[rumborak]

I would "cautiously" say away from words like "clearly" or "was on top"; some of the stuff on the recent TA and NM releases is as tasty as anything MP has released, and I do consider him in the drumming greats (Peart, Harrison, etc.).

Maybe there are still instances where he steps it up, but I was listening to the new Neal Morse track the other day, and the drumming was the same old tired fills and beats. And, I mean, he doesn't even make it a secret that he doesn't practice on his drums anymore. I just can't consider a person as "a Great" if they so clearly have lost interest in the craft.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

If we got a whole album of MM sounding and playing like he did on TSF in BTFW, it'd be the best drumming ever on a DT album (assuming the songs themselves worked).

[bosk1]

I would "cautiously" say away from words like "clearly" or "was on top"; some of the stuff on the recent TA and NM releases is as tasty as anything MP has released, and I do consider him in the drumming greats (Peart, Harrison, etc.).

Maybe there are still instances where he steps it up, but I was listening to the new Neal Morse track the other day, and the drumming was the same old tired fills and beats. And, I mean, he doesn't even make it a secret that he doesn't practice on his drums anymore. I just can't consider a person as "a Great" if they so clearly have lost interest in the craft.

I completely agree.  I mean, it's like a guitarist who uses the same chords over and over.  "I mean, come on, dude!  You used a G 20 years ago!  You're still using that same chord?  Get a life!"

[abydos]

So he doesn't practice even after leaving DT and gaining a lot of time on his hands?

[rumborak]

I would "cautiously" say away from words like "clearly" or "was on top"; some of the stuff on the recent TA and NM releases is as tasty as anything MP has released, and I do consider him in the drumming greats (Peart, Harrison, etc.).

Maybe there are still instances where he steps it up, but I was listening to the new Neal Morse track the other day, and the drumming was the same old tired fills and beats. And, I mean, he doesn't even make it a secret that he doesn't practice on his drums anymore. I just can't consider a person as "a Great" if they so clearly have lost interest in the craft.

I completely agree.  I mean, it's like a guitarist who uses the same chords over and over.  "I mean, come on, dude!  You used a G 20 years ago!  You're still using that same chord?  Get a life!"

Eh. Of course you well know that the comparison is totally invalid, but whatever.

[TheCountOfNYC]

I would "cautiously" say away from words like "clearly" or "was on top"; some of the stuff on the recent TA and NM releases is as tasty as anything MP has released, and I do consider him in the drumming greats (Peart, Harrison, etc.).

Maybe there are still instances where he steps it up, but I was listening to the new Neal Morse track the other day, and the drumming was the same old tired fills and beats. And, I mean, he doesn't even make it a secret that he doesn't practice on his drums anymore. I just can't consider a person as "a Great" if they so clearly have lost interest in the craft.

I watched an interview with Mike Portnoy recently where he said he doesn't practice because he doesn't have time but when he does have some time on his hands he will use some of it to practice. When you have as much on your plate as he does, it can be impossible to find time to practice. He also has a great memory in the sense that he can jump behind a set to play something he hasn't played in a while and still play it perfectly. John Petrucci even said this is true in an interview last year. In all fairness, with him doing so much, he's also pretty much playing drums all the time anyway whether it's in the studio or on stage so it's not like he's getting rusty.

[rumborak]

I think that's all fair. My point would be that his choice to wear so many hats keeps him from progressing in his craft. It's a tradeoff, but to me that's what keeps him out of the upper echelon.

[Rodni Demental]

I would "cautiously" say away from words like "clearly" or "was on top"; some of the stuff on the recent TA and NM releases is as tasty as anything MP has released, and I do consider him in the drumming greats (Peart, Harrison, etc.).

Maybe there are still instances where he steps it up, but I was listening to the new Neal Morse track the other day, and the drumming was the same old tired fills and beats. And, I mean, he doesn't even make it a secret that he doesn't practice on his drums anymore. I just can't consider a person as "a Great" if they so clearly have lost interest in the craft.

I completely agree.  I mean, it's like a guitarist who uses the same chords over and over.  "I mean, come on, dude!  You used a G 20 years ago!  You're still using that same chord?  Get a life!"

In fairness, there's only so many notes that people will resonate with, so an artist is always going to stick to what sounds good to them. I add that last part because there is apparently more note combinations in music than observed stars in the night sky (no idea how accurate that is, the internet told me ), but faar less combinations that the average person will think sounds harmonically satisfying. I mean, there are certain patterns that are COMPLETELY over used, but they still make for good listening if they're used appropriately and don't grind into repetition. Like certain chord progressions, I would give examples like the I V vi IV or the i III VII iv/VI. Or perhaps i VII i VII or V VI V VI. These are stamped over almost any artist that's made more than a handful of albums and DT have used them many times. JP has his favourite chord progressions, but he's pretty good at hiding them. In that, he makes subtle changes so the chord progressions don't sound the same as the last time he used it.

As for drummers, well similar deal really. MP has a very developed style, once you've reached that point you're gonna be constantly trying variations of the things that already appeal to you. I've noticed some of his drumming on the latest Flying Colors album seemed a bit rehashed (thought I recognised some parts from A7X drumming and even stuff going as far back as SDOIT). But then I realised it was actually a bit different, and it still worked well for the context and mood of the song. Should he have to reinvent himself every time just to sound 'different' when he's capable of demonstrating a wide variation of appropriate techniques for a certain section.

Although I digress alot, sometimes a musician just needs to try something new because I get how one can fall into stagnation, but I assume you're joking because of course a guitarist is gonna keep using G, it's a completely relevant note/chord. xD Anyway, just trying to appreciate from the perspective of the musician.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

I would "cautiously" say away from words like "clearly" or "was on top"; some of the stuff on the recent TA and NM releases is as tasty as anything MP has released, and I do consider him in the drumming greats (Peart, Harrison, etc.).

Maybe there are still instances where he steps it up, but I was listening to the new Neal Morse track the other day, and the drumming was the same old tired fills and beats. And, I mean, he doesn't even make it a secret that he doesn't practice on his drums anymore. I just can't consider a person as "a Great" if they so clearly have lost interest in the craft.

I completely agree.  I mean, it's like a guitarist who uses the same chords over and over.  "I mean, come on, dude!  You used a G 20 years ago!  You're still using that same chord?  Get a life!"

In fairness, there's only so many notes that people will resonate with, so an artist is always going to stick to what sounds good to them. I add that last part because there is apparently more note combinations in music than observed stars in the night sky (no idea how accurate that is, the internet told me ), but faar less combinations that the average person will think sounds harmonically satisfying. I mean, there are certain patterns that are COMPLETELY over used, but they still make for good listening if they're used appropriately and don't grind into repetition. Like certain chord progressions, I would give examples like the I V vi IV or the i III VII iv/VI. Or perhaps i VII i VII or V VI V VI. These are stamped over almost any artist that's made more than a handful of albums and DT have used them many times. JP has his favourite chord progressions, but he's pretty good at hiding them. In that, he makes subtle changes so the chord progressions don't sound the same as the last time he used it.

As for drummers, well similar deal really. MP has a very developed style, once you've reached that point you're gonna be constantly trying variations of the things that already appeal to you. I've noticed some of his drumming on the latest Flying Colors album seemed a bit rehashed (thought I recognised some parts from A7X drumming and even stuff going as far back as SDOIT). But then I realised it was actually a bit different, and it still worked well for the context and mood of the song. Should he have to reinvent himself every time just to sound 'different' when he's capable of demonstrating a wide variation of appropriate techniques for a certain section.

Although I digress alot, sometimes a musician just needs to try something new because I know what you mean about stagnation, just trying to appreciate from the perspective of the musician though.

The question with the whole Portnoy "stagnation" discussion is: Does it result from him simply figuring out "the things that already appeal to him," some lack of practice/technical limitations, or some of both? I'd have to lean more toward the former. I mean, Mike Mangini clearly is extremely dedicated to his craft, and he has as much technical ability as anyone...and still, a very high percentage of his drum parts don't approach groundbreaking.

On another note, Petrucci and Rudess are also clearly dedicated musicians, and they talk about practicing all the time, but I'd say they have a similar diminishing return on finding new nooks and crannies to explore. The more recorded material an artist puts out, the more of the cards they show; it's that simple. There are more notes on a guitar and keyboard then there are drums, so it's easier to find the drummer replicating patterns than a guitarist or keyboardist replicating runs. Combined with Portnoy's statements, it's easy to connect the dots and create a causal relationship where there really isn't one. Not saying it's completely invalid, but it's a minor factor.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

This is not a controversial opinion on DT, but on Mike Portnoy which was a huge part of DT (which seems to be something that is being talked about):

He's not half the player he was during the late 90s/early 00s era. His drumming doesn't stand out to me in any aspect anymore.

[BlobVanDam]

But, at the same time I have to say, I've been massively underwhelmed by how that has translated onto both albums so far with him. When ADTOE came out, there was a pretty sizeable disappointment, but it was all caveated by "well, JP wrote the basic drum parts. We can't judge MM based on that.". With DT12 we were supposed to hear "MM unleashed ", but what we mostly got was "MM with horrible drum sound".
So, after a solid 2.5 hours of recorded material with him, I have to summarize so far that he neither is on the level of other drumming greats (Peart, Harrison etc), nor in fact MP when he was on top.

Sadly, I agree with this. I love MM, but he's yet to impress me on a DT album yet. I don't care about who's technically better or holds a world record for speed, all I care about is if I find the music interesting. One of my favourite things from MM so far is the straight simple 12/8 riff in Illumination Theory, which is nothing fancy, but it has some groove.

[nikatapi]

This is not a controversial opinion on DT, but on Mike Portnoy which was a huge part of DT (which seems to be something that is being talked about):

He's not half the player he was during the late 90s/early 00s era. His drumming doesn't stand out to me in any aspect anymore.

Completely agreed. I was listening to I&W and i still am impressed with his drumming. Unfortunately MP's playing today is very predictable and less diverse in my opinion, that is the case on the new Neal Morse album as well, i knew the fills even before he played them.

I see people talking about MM's creativity, and sure, he may not be so in your face as MP was, but he is so musical. Some parts are not easily recognisable, but he does some pretty mindblowing stuff once you get to understand it. Too bad the production of both studio albums he's in is crap, and he has a very mediocre sound. Let's hope for an improvement on the next album.

[rumborak]

I think if there's one thing I would like to see, or rather, stop seeing, is MM following every guitar chugga with his bass drum. I understand that it gives extra oomph by adding low end, but frankly that's what most bands have a bass player for.
I'd much rather see semi-polyrythms as in the beginning of HTF. That part is just plain brilliant.

[Sycsa]

I love MM's drumming on DT12, I find it fresh, exciting and inspiring. He definitely injected DT with some new life.

[The Holy Tune]

I think if there's one thing I would like to see, or rather, stop seeing, is MM following every guitar chugga with his bass drum. I understand that it gives extra oomph by adding low end, but frankly that's what most bands have a bass player for.

Oh I can't agree with this anymore, I give too much effort to notice JMX behind MM's bass drum. The fact that MM can play so freaking fast means that JMX is dug even deeper below the whole sound. They need to fix that thing in the upcoming album.