Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[TheGreatPretender]

I understand that it can be a hurdle, but it's a lot less difficult to overcome than people make it seem. Like I said, I myself wasn't a fan of JLB's voice when I first heard DT, but it only took 2 albums for it to grow on me, and now, I swear by it, as do many DT fans. It really bothers me that people can't accept the fact that with a little patience and dilligence, this man can become one of their favorite vocalists ever. Like, they just don't want to bother giving him a chance. It's all about instant gratification, rather than the long term pay off.
But even if JLB's voice isn't that accessible, I still don't understand how people can actually find it LESS accessible than someone like Ozzy Osbourne or Robert Plant.
And heck, even Bruce Dickinson, he's got great range and great stage presence, but I wouldn't say he's got that good of a singing voice. There's nothing offputting about it, but I wouldn't say it's a very good singing voice. It gets the job done, and by now, it's quite iconic, but I can't imagine Bruce Dickinson singing Another Day or Metropolis, and doing more justice to it than JLB.

But anyway, all of that aside, the point is, MP's comment was completely uncalled for. JLB's voice may not be the most instantly accessible, but he's still a master of his craft, and MP was way off base saying what he said.

EDIT: To add onto that: Put it this way, look at Geddy Lee. His voice is far from what I'd say accessible, more so than JLB, and although yes, back in the 70s, those kinds of vocals were more fashionable, the point I'm trying to make is that later on in their career, you wouldn't hear Alex Lifeson say, "Well, if I was hiring a new vocalist these days, I probably wouldn't pick Geddy, I'd pick someone like Greg Lake," (just as an example). You just wouldn't hear him say that. Why? Because they were band mates for many years, they were friends and comrades, and with MP having said that, it really seems like to him, that relationship ended at Band mate, even though according to JP, they were all supposed to be like family, celebrating weddings and things like that together. I mean, Mike Portnoy was complaining that by the end of his days in DT a certain band member wouldn't even eat in the same room as them, and I'm not saying that necessarily had to be JLB, but if things had gotten to that point with them, maybe it had something to do with how insensitively blunt certain comments were.

So my question never did get clarified, when exactly did MP make that statement?

[rumborak]

I understand that it can be a hurdle, but it's a lot less difficult to overcome than people make it seem. Like I said, I myself wasn't a fan of JLB's voice when I first heard DT, but it only took 2 albums for it to grow on me, and now, I swear by it, as do many DT fans. It really bothers me that people can't accept the fact that with a little patience and dilligence, this man can become one of their favorite vocalists ever. Like, they just don't want to bother giving him a chance. It's all about instant gratification, rather than the long term pay off.

Duuuude, talk about having lost perspective.

[TheGreatPretender]

I understand that it can be a hurdle, but it's a lot less difficult to overcome than people make it seem. Like I said, I myself wasn't a fan of JLB's voice when I first heard DT, but it only took 2 albums for it to grow on me, and now, I swear by it, as do many DT fans. It really bothers me that people can't accept the fact that with a little patience and dilligence, this man can become one of their favorite vocalists ever. Like, they just don't want to bother giving him a chance. It's all about instant gratification, rather than the long term pay off.

Duuuude, talk about having lost perspective.

How's that, now?

[Skeever]

Story time:

When I first bought Awake based on the recommendation of some friends online, I had to shelve it immediately. I couldn't stand the vocals at all.

Eventually I got around to listening to it more, and now it's a top 10 favorite album of mine, but I think that my anecdote sums up the issue with getting "modern" audiences into DT: even at his very tippy-top best, James is still a hurdle for people.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, like I said, I think people should to suck it up, especially if they like the music itself. I wasn't crazy about him either. And it's not because he has a bad voice, it's just unconventional, and it does stand out. It's certainly not the typical voice you imagine when someone brings up Metal vocalists.
But I loved the music, so I essentially 'tolerated' JLB for the sheer sake of the music. That's how he grew on me. It only took a couple of weeks for his vocals to not bother me all that much, and in a couple of months, I loved them. Now, I wouldn't want DT any other way. It was just a matter of giving him an honest chance, instead of just hearing it for the first time and going, "Nope." I mean, heck, I could've done the same with Led Zeppelin, or Rush, I didn't even find their music all that amazing, certainly not nearly as good as DT's. But luckily, that was after I discovered DT, so I knew better than to judge a band by first impressions, and now, I "get" it, you know?

[hefdaddy42]

Guy sings in a clear tone: "That sounds weird"

Other guy sings RORORORORORORORORO: "Awesome"

Not making judgements, I like a little RORORO myself from time to time, but that strikes me as amusing.

[JediKnight1969]

I can't understand so-called DT fans rejecting JLB. Think about this: one of the reasons DT is such an extrordinary band, is because they have a frontman capable to sing ANYTHING. Check how Iron Maiden's compositions suffer the lack of a good singer during the Blaze Bayley era. The kind of songs you can write is limited by the musicians' ability to play their instruments, and that includes the vocals. Almost everybody agrees that DT improved a lot after they recruit JLB, and in case you don't like FII, SC or BC&SL, is not because of him. Those records were the combined effort of a full band of five outstanding musicians. Many, MANY bands would sell their souls in order to be able to write records like those ones.

James LaBrie is one of the best singers in rock history, and if you have listened to unique voices like (for instance) Ozzy Osbourne, Jon Anderson, Geddy Lee, Dave Mustaine, Janis Joplin or Cedric Bixler-Zavala before, your ears should be able to overcome anything "unusual" and enjoy the work of these artists.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Some people just don't like his voice. I mean, I don't think they should change singers just because people don't like him, that would be silly.

But I also think it's kind of silly to insist that people should like him, because some people just won't, and that's fine.

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah.  Lots of different reasons to like (or dislike) different bands.  No big deal.

[TheGreatPretender]

Guy sings in a clear tone: "That sounds weird"

Other guy sings RORORORORORORORORO: "Awesome"

Not making judgements, I like a little RORORO myself from time to time, but that strikes me as amusing.

I wasn't gonna say anything, because I find that fans of aggressive vocals tend to be very defensive of their Metalcorez and Death Metulz, but yeah, so much this. This was one of the first examples that came to mind, is all the guttural, screamo, roaring stuff that's gotten so popular. The problem, I think IS that it's a fairly generic style of vocals. I mean, I'm sure at first it was jarring and offputting, but once people got used to it, there wasn't too much more to it. There are guys who scream in low guttural, high (squawking as I call it), and a couple of variations here and there like what Russel Allen does, but for the most part there's not that much uniqueness to it. Whereas with clean vocals, every singer's specific tone is clear and evident, and JLB's happens to be a very unique one.

Some people just don't like his voice. I mean, I don't think they should change singers just because people don't like him, that would be silly.

But I also think it's kind of silly to insist that people should like him, because some people just won't, and that's fine.

Well, I'm taking my statements to a bit of an extreme just to emphasize my point, but yeah, I'm not saying people should like him. I'm just saying if they like the music, they should give him a fair chance to grow on them, instead of dismissing him right away. Like I said, from personal experience, my opinion made a complete 180 when it comes to JLB's vocals, so it's not like it's impossible for that to happen.

James LaBrie is one of the best singers in rock history, and if you have listened to unique voices like (for instance) Ozzy Osbourne, Jon Anderson, Geddy Lee, Dave Mustaine, Janis Joplin or Cedric Bixler-Zavala before, your ears should be able to overcome anything "unusual" and enjoy the work of these artists.

 

[rumborak]

I understand that it can be a hurdle, but it's a lot less difficult to overcome than people make it seem. Like I said, I myself wasn't a fan of JLB's voice when I first heard DT, but it only took 2 albums for it to grow on me, and now, I swear by it, as do many DT fans. It really bothers me that people can't accept the fact that with a little patience and dilligence, this man can become one of their favorite vocalists ever. Like, they just don't want to bother giving him a chance. It's all about instant gratification, rather than the long term pay off.

Duuuude, talk about having lost perspective.

How's that, now?

I'm saying that, if you made the argument that people could get *used* to JLB over time (like with Geddy Lee), I could see that. But to think that if people only spent some time on it, James would become their *favorite* singer, that's just ludicrous.
I have been following DT since 1993 or thereabouts, and to this day, I think his singing is "meh". Yes, he can sing high, he can sing in time to weird time sigs, but frankly, that's about it. His diction is awful, and IMHO he has virtually no timbre.

[TheGreatPretender]

I'm saying that, if you made the argument that people could get *used* to JLB over time (like with Geddy Lee), I could see that. But to think that if people only spent some time on it, James would become their *favorite* singer, that's just ludicrous.

Ludicrous? Why? It happened to me.

[Madman Shepherd]

I got into DT around SFAM and some of my friends that had been listening to them were on their way out with their fandom.  One even ridiculed that I started liking them and talked about how jazz is where its at.  Essentially saying that he was a dumbass for even liking them in the first place but now he is so much more enlightened.  When pressed, they would say that DT used to be good but the singer was terrible.  It was so fucking fashionable to trash James. 

I've actually met a lot of people that were like that.  They thought they were such intelligent people because they not only liked this complex music but they were even better at picking it apart. 

Those people sucked. 

James does not and never did.  I never got the hate for him.  Like The Great Pretender said, he can do everything.  The one thing he lacks is the deeper more aggressive vocals but he more than makes up for that in with his soaring vocals, his light vocals, his own unique brand of aggressive vocals. 

Fortunately, I think it is becoming less fashionable to hate James.  I haven't talked to anybody in casual conversation that had anything negative to say about him.  It used to be that peoples distaste for his vocals was one of the first things people brought up. 

Maybe I just finally started hanging around cooler people

[rumborak]

I'm saying that, if you made the argument that people could get *used* to JLB over time (like with Geddy Lee), I could see that. But to think that if people only spent some time on it, James would become their *favorite* singer, that's just ludicrous.

Ludicrous? Why? It happened to me.

Ludicrous because your personal experience can hardly be used as an extrapolation to the general population. Even on this forum, most of the people who didn't like his singing from early on, settled on "it's an acquired taste". So, given that background, it is just exceedingly unlikely that the general population would suddenly fall in love with his singing, if a sizable percentage of the core fanbase already "got used" to him at best.

[rumborak]

Fortunately, I think it is becoming less fashionable to hate James.  I haven't talked to anybody in casual conversation that had anything negative to say about him.  It used to be that peoples distaste for his vocals was one of the first things people brought up. 

The reason is actually fairly straightforward: DT have slowly moved away from the 80s-style singing of the early days, to a more metal-style singing. I think people being exposed to DT these days are more willing to write off the early stuff as "it was a different time".

[emtee]

I'm not here to hate on JLB just to provide my perspective. I've always liked his voice but the problem is that he really struggled
live. About half the time I saw him he had a bad night. Some songs would be OK but others were not good at all. On studio work
he is great. I think he has been getting better in a live setting over the last 2 years though. Back in the Awake days he was
mighty.

[TheGreatPretender]

Ludicrous because your personal experience can hardly be used as an extrapolation to the general population. Even on this forum, most of the people who didn't like his singing from early on, settled on "it's an acquired taste". So, given that background, it is just exceedingly unlikely that the general population would suddenly fall in love with his singing, if a sizable percentage of the core fanbase already "got used" to him at best.

Hey, there was a reason I said MIGHT become their favorite singer. Of course the other part of that is "might not," but there's still a good chance they'd grow to like him. I know plenty of people who enjoy his singing, whether he's their favorite, or in top 10, or top 20. But if people just completely dismiss him and never give him a chance, it's ultimately their loss, because he's not going anywhere, and they're only missing out on DT's awesome music. And James himself is unquestionably as much a master of his craft as anyone in DT. Yes, he's had a very long rough period, but heck, to say, "He didn't sound good live, I listened to the bootlegs" is the kind of a statement that obviously only a DT fan could say, and based on the officially released albums and live material, there was nothing that would indicate that he was struggling live (aside from maybe OIALT), so outsiders couldn't even properly make such a claim. He always had incredibly impressive range and employed a variety of techniques to boot.

But again, this is going on a completely far off tangent from my original point. Some people like JLB, some don't, some are too closed minded to give him a chance, whatever. Regardless of ANY of this, it was absolutely uncool, and mean spirited for Mike Portnoy to have said the things he did about James. Regardless of how honest, or how blunt he may be, it really doesn't take that much tact or common sense to know that things like that shouldn't be said, so the only way I can explain it is him being passive aggressive about JLB's place in the band. A burst of honesty completely disregarding how the person in question might feel, or worse, (and this is a wild conjecture on my part) an attempted bait to lure JLB to retaliate and get himself kicked out for an attitude problem.

[Randaran]

I wasn't gonna say anything, because I find that fans of aggressive vocals tend to be very defensive of their Metalcorez and Death Metulz, but yeah, so much this. This was one of the first examples that came to mind, is all the guttural, screamo, roaring stuff that's gotten so popular. The problem, I think IS that it's a fairly generic style of vocals. I mean, I'm sure at first it was jarring and offputting, but once people got used to it, there wasn't too much more to it. There are guys who scream in low guttural, high (squawking as I call it), and a couple of variations here and there like what Russel Allen does, but for the most part there's not that much uniqueness to it. Whereas with clean vocals, every singer's specific tone is clear and evident, and JLB's happens to be a very unique one.

I disagree with the bolded. There is plenty of variety in harsh vocals. The first three examples that come to mind are Mikael Akerfeldt, Tommy Rogers, and Chuck Schuldiner. All three sound completely different from one another. To me, it seems that you are not quite familiar enough with these types of vocals to be able to distinguish the subleties. I find that growls have just as much variety in tone as cleans.

On topic, my first DT album was TOT. When I first listened to it, I loved the instrumental parts, but did not care for the vocals. It was not until I listened to Images and Awake that JLB clicked for me. He now ranks among my favorite singers.

[Skeever]

James LaBrie is one of the best singers in rock history, and if you have listened to unique voices like (for instance) Ozzy Osbourne, Jon Anderson, Geddy Lee, Dave Mustaine, Janis Joplin or Cedric Bixler-Zavala before, your ears should be able to overcome anything "unusual" and enjoy the work of these artists.

Hmmm... not sure I would agree. Not sure I disagree, either.

The problem with LaBrie is, while he was almost hands-down "the best" in metal for a period of time, his window was pretty short. Had he been stellar for all of the 90s or something, or had his Winter Rose years been DT years, I could see the argument. But as it stands I'd say he had 2 albums and 1 tour as a true powerhouse singer. From there, he became more inconsistent and his range took a huge hit. He's done an admirable job over the last few years, so I have to give him props, but I'm not sure I could list him among "the best" - he would be an outlier, at most.

[TheGreatPretender]

I disagree with the bolded. There is plenty of variety in harsh vocals. The first three examples that come to mind are Mikael Akerfeldt, Tommy Rogers, and Chuck Schuldiner. All three sound completely different from one another. To me, it seems that you are not quite familiar enough with these types of vocals to be able to distinguish the subleties. I find that growls have just as much variety in tone as cleans.

See? I was expecting someone to say this. 

Yes, your examples all sound completely different from each other. The problem is that the vast majority of extreme Metal bands out there either sound like the first, or the second. Honestly, I've been to enough concerts where there would be like 4 opening acts, and they all had aggressive vocals, and they all sound pretty much exactly like Tommy Rogers.
Obviously there will be subtle differences in timbre or pitch that reflect the given person's voice, but the key word there is subtle, and very easy to miss. Whereas with clean vocalists, I can only think of maybe 2 or 3 pairs of bands whose vocalists are similar enough to confuse for one another.
Look, it's just simple biology. People speak in clean voices, and the voice is the biggest key factor in identifying someone you can't see, so we're naturally more inclined to pick up on the differences in a clean voice than an aggressive one. And you're right, maybe if I listened to like 10+ different aggressive bands on a regular basis, I'd be able to tell the subtle differences between all of them, but there's not nearly that much effort that's required to differentiate between clean singers in most cases.
And let's face it, with JLB in particular, there's nobody among known established rock or metal bands who sounds anywhere nearly like him. And I know this is a ciché, but in his case, it really is both a blessing and a curse.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I wouldn't say that growls have quite the range of diversity as clean vox, but there's still a lot more than I think you're giving them credit for. And that probably comes from not listening to it much, I know I used to not be able to tell one growl from another.

[TheGreatPretender]

I wouldn't say that growls have quite the range of diversity as clean vox, but there's still a lot more than I think you're giving them credit for. And that probably comes from not listening to it much, I know I used to not be able to tell one growl from another.

Yes, but like I said, if you listen to two different clean vocalists, even if they have a very similar range, more often than not, you'll hear a clear difference between the two. The sheer fact that at first, it's difficult to tell the difference between growls says a lot about how much more subtle these differences are. And yes, there are certain clean vocalists who have more of a generic tone, and a few of them might be easier to confuse for one another. Quite frankly, I think that's also the case for operatic female vocals. You really have to listen to a lot of them to differentiate. But it's very easy on a first listen to hear the difference between Rob Halford and Bruce Dickinson.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Have you considered that the reason it's easier for you to differentiate Rob Halford and Bruce Dickinson as opposed to operatic females or harsh vocalists is simply because that's what you're used to? Everyone starts out listening to clean vocals, pretty much, so they've already got a head start in that regard.

[rumborak]

I don't think it should come as a surprise that people both have more expressive power, and also the ability to discern differences in, the main means of their communication.
People can tell over the phone whether a person is smiling or not. Growls can differ for sure, but they simply can't compete with an organ that evolved for thousands of years for the purpose of being expressive.

[Mosh]

I wouldn't say that growls have quite the range of diversity as clean vox, but there's still a lot more than I think you're giving them credit for. And that probably comes from not listening to it much, I know I used to not be able to tell one growl from another.

Yes, but like I said, if you listen to two different clean vocalists, even if they have a very similar range, more often than not, you'll hear a clear difference between the two. The sheer fact that at first, it's difficult to tell the difference between growls says a lot about how much more subtle these differences are. And yes, there are certain clean vocalists who have more of a generic tone, and a few of them might be easier to confuse for one another. Quite frankly, I think that's also the case for operatic female vocals. You really have to listen to a lot of them to differentiate. But it's very easy on a first listen to hear the difference between Rob Halford and Bruce Dickinson.

This is a very closed minded way to think of things. If you listened to more operatic female styles or more growled vocals you'd be able to familiarize yourself with the techniques and nuances of these styles. Frankly if you can't tel the difference, you're not listening hard enough.

[Zook]

If Dream Theater had Mike Patton as a singer I would have never become a fan. I can't stand that guy.

[bosk1]

If Dream Theater had Mike Patton as a singer I would have never become a fan. I can't stand that guy.

I agree, actually.   ()  His voice is definitely an acquired taste.  I like his work on The Real Thing (album).  But otherwise, he doesn't impress me, and I find both his voice and personality to be pretty grating.

[TheGreatPretender]

Ah Jesus. Fine, whatever, there are as many differences in growls as there are in clean styles. This is why I didn't want to bring up aggressive vocals in the first place. How's about them controversial opinions on Dream Theater?

[MoraWintersoul]

Have you considered that the reason it's easier for you to differentiate Rob Halford and Bruce Dickinson as opposed to operatic females or harsh vocalists is simply because that's what you're used to? Everyone starts out listening to clean vocals, pretty much, so they've already got a head start in that regard.

Yeah, and sometimes your recognition of clean vocalists varies by how much of the genre in question you've heard. My mom basically can't tell the difference between Russell Allen, Jorn Lande and Mats Leven; I'm sure some people can't tell the difference between Keepers era Kiske and Bruce Dickinson. If I didn't know Dio's discog so well, even I would swear that Nils Patrik Johansson of Astral Doors is Dio.

[Mosh]

One time I was playing Scenes in the car with my mom and on the song One Last Time she asks: "Is this Judas Priest?".

If you're not familiar with something you're not going to be able to differentiate it or pick out what makes it unique, and there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is when people make generalizations about something they aren't familiar with, this happens with all kinds of music. And for us on a prog metal band's forum, I'm sure many here have experienced that.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Yeah. I've had people tell me DT sounds like Dragonforce. And obviously to me they sound nothing alike, but I guess someone who doesn't listen to that kind of music just hears "high range singer + metal sounding guitars" and thinks Dragonforce. Alas.

DF is cool tho.

[Grizz]

Yeah. I've had people tell me DT sounds like Dragonforce.

Someone told me that once. That's where I drew the Lines in the Sand. I couldn't have them Burning My Soul anymore. I needed to Take Away My Pain. Overpopulation is a problem anyway in this New Millennium. I said "It's the fault of You Not Me," and there was no time for a Trial of Tears or even the begging of "Just Let Me Breathe." They are now working in Hell's Kitchen. Anna Lee.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

DF is cool tho.

I was kinda nonplussed though.

[abydos]

For what it's worth, I didn't like JLB at first as well, but not because his voice was bad. I just found it too "light". At the time when I first heard them I was heavily into 80s-90s heavy, death and thrash metal so anything that wasn't aggressive was not up my alley. But eventually after I listened to some more and my musical tastes started to expand, JLB became my favourite singer and I just love his voice. To this day, he remains my favourite, even if he's a far cry from where he used to be in the early-mid 90s.

[Madman Shepherd]

If Dream Theater had Mike Patton as a singer I would have never become a fan. I can't stand that guy.

I agree, actually.   ()  His voice is definitely an acquired taste.  I like his work on The Real Thing (album).  But otherwise, he doesn't impress me, and I find both his voice and personality to be pretty grating.

His album vocals can be brilliant about 70% of the time.  The rest of the time he tries to hard to be weird and edgy.  In concert, he rarely sings the way he does on albums and at times will just sing a bunch of jibberish or growl incessantly.  He is one of the most inconsistent performers that comes to mind.