Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[Zook]

[Rodni Demental]

I actually heard Greatest Hit before I'd even heard the first half of DTs discography (PMU being the exception) and I think it was the 3rd or 4th album I got from them (after BL&SL/TOT and maybe SC). So pretty much everything on the compilation that represents I&W to SDOIT was first introduced to me on this CD. Although I didn't spend too much time listening to the compilations before I ended up getting the original albums.

In retrospect, I do think it needed an 'epic' side, or a 'proggy' side. My picks would be: Metropolis, A Change of Seasons, The Glass Prison, Octavarium, The Dance of Eternity. I'd consider A Mind Beside Itself but The Silent Man is already on 'The Light Side' (although it could have been moved for the context of a third disc). I'd also consider some stuff like In The Name Of God and maybe some more SDOIT and SFAM stuff but I think I'd already be over 80 minutes on the third disc by that point.   

[TheGreatPretender]

I actually heard Greatest Hit before I'd even heard the first half of DTs discography (PMU being the exception) and I think it was the 3rd or 4th album I got from them (after BL&SL/TOT and maybe SC). So pretty much everything on the compilation that represents I&W to SDOIT was first introduced to me on this CD. Although I didn't spend too much time listening to the compilations before I ended up getting the original albums.

Yeah, same here. I do have to say, some of the songs on it didn't accurately represent their respective albums. Between Lie and Lifting Shadows, I was really expecting something different from Awake.

[Mosh]

Wrote this post in the musical direction thread but decided that it was a better fit here:
I like the blast beats and growls on ANTR. I think Portnoy should've gone out like he was planning to, instead of compromising with the pseudo-growl thing he went with. Anyway, it's a bit cheesy and all but cheesy music never bothered me. I don't think they were taking it seriously anyway; I mean come on, they had a video of cookie monster playing while doing it live. And besides, the original JLB part they had was god awful.

And yea I really like the blast beats. They aren't the best blast beats imaginable but come on, people are always taking shots at MP for not doing anything new with his drumming, and this is him doing something new! Of course he isn't going to master it the first time around, but it was cool seeing him doing something different and it made a somewhat repetitive riff more interesting IMO.

Honestly the only real problem I have with ANTR is the solo section. Some of the worst soloing I've heard from both JP and JR. The entire section is pointless too, it's so shoehorned. The rest of the song is ace though.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I think they should have just had someone who can actually growl perform that part.

Of course, then all the harsh vocal-averse fans would have shat themselves with rage, but you can't please everyone.

[TheGreatPretender]

I'm not harsh vocals averse, but I think there's a place for everything, and I don't think guttural growls have their place in DT.

[BlobVanDam]

I think everything can have a place in DT. I think the only mistake was pulling back because of what the fans would think. They should have gone all out.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I'm not harsh vocals averse, but I think there's a place for everything, and I don't think guttural growls have their place in DT.

I guess I don't really understand that. Obviously I wouldn't want DT becoming a death metal band (although it might actually be awesome), but having one section of well placed harsh vocals doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Although I don't expect them to ever do it.

I think everything can have a place in DT. I think the only mistake was pulling back because of what the fans would think. They should have gone all out.

I think this is true, too. Honestly, I prefer if an artist/band just does whatever they want, regardless of what people think about it.

[TheGreatPretender]

I guess I don't really understand that. Obviously I wouldn't want DT becoming a death metal band (although it might actually be awesome), but having one section of well placed harsh vocals doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Although I don't expect them to ever do it.

Well, I just feel like if they had done it, it would've been like crossing into a whole new territory, which feels like it would result in them (namely MP) wanting to use more and more of it, until half the songs involved them, diminishing JLB's role in the band more and more.

I could be wrong, but heck, look at what happened when MP started singing in the band. It started with just singing harmonies, and then we'd hear more and more of him, until we had him singing whole parts. And sure, what we had on SC wasn't bad, I actually didn't mind some of his parts, and even a few of them on BC&SL weren't completely awful. But still, it wasn't particularly a direction I liked them going towards.

In terms of vocals, I'd say MP leaving was the biggest blessing of all.

[Mosh]

I think everything can have a place in DT. I think the only mistake was pulling back because of what the fans would think. They should have gone all out.

This.

I don't like the idea of "x doesn't have a place in DT". That's when they stop being a progressive band. The whole point of the genre is to push boundaries and do the unexpected. DT should do more of that imo.

Say what you will about MP, but he was great at taking DT to territories that people might not expect. Sure it may not have worked very often, but it was still really interesting to hear and it kept listeners on their toes. It's not like that anymore.

I guess I don't really understand that. Obviously I wouldn't want DT becoming a death metal band (although it might actually be awesome), but having one section of well placed harsh vocals doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Although I don't expect them to ever do it.

Well, I just feel like if they had done it, it would've been like crossing into a whole new territory, which feels like it would result in them (namely MP) wanting to use more and more of it, until half the songs involved them, diminishing JLB's role in the band more and more.

Oh come on, they used growls once. There's no reason to assume that would've happened. 

And I see your argument with the MP vocals too but it never reached the point where half the songs involved MP singing lead vocals.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I guess I don't really understand that. Obviously I wouldn't want DT becoming a death metal band (although it might actually be awesome), but having one section of well placed harsh vocals doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Although I don't expect them to ever do it.

Well, I just feel like if they had done it, it would've been like crossing into a whole new territory, which feels like it would result in them (namely MP) wanting to use more and more of it, until half the songs involved them, diminishing JLB's role in the band more and more.

I could be wrong, but heck, look at what happened when MP started singing in the band. It started with just singing harmonies, and then we'd hear more and more of him, until we had him singing whole parts. And sure, what we had on SC wasn't bad, I actually didn't mind some of his parts, and even a few of them on BC&SL weren't completely awful. But still, it wasn't particularly a direction I liked them going towards.

In terms of vocals, I'd say MP leaving was the biggest blessing of all.

MP's been singing harmonies forever, though. And I don't think he honestly sang that much in DT.

Off the top of my head, there's the call-and-response of TGP and CM, the pseudo-rap of POW (which I actually like, sue me), and then the sections on ANTR and TCOT, and I thought the "I!" parts on TCOT were actually really cool. And I guess a bit of background stuff on AROP?

I'll admit, the dude doesn't have a great singing voice, but I think the complaints about him assuming too much vocal duty in DT were always a bit overblown.

[TheGreatPretender]

Oh come on, they used growls once. There's no reason to assume that would've happened. 

And I see your argument with the MP vocals too but it never reached the point where half the songs involved MP singing lead vocals.

Maybe not, but in a hypothetical world where MP never quit the band, who knows how the next DT album would have turned out? Honestly, BCSL left me quite wary, and it wasn't until he quit and they hired MM, that I finally got excited about hearing what they'd bring out again.

And considering JLB's past 2 solo albums, he's obviously humble enough to take a back seat to allow another vocalist to do lead parts on some of the songs.

[BlobVanDam]

People overstate MP's vocals role in the band. It was mostly harmonies and interplay with JLB, which worked well. It was one or two sections max where you could even count it as a lead vocal.
Personally I very much miss the contrast of voices. ADTOE was a very simplistic album vocally, and lacking the 3 part harmonies that had become a prominent part of their music with MP and JP. I don't think even DT12 has much of it either. MP was pushing the vocals overall, not just for himself, but for the whole arrangement. He clearly had an ear for it.

And considering JLB's past 2 solo albums, he's obviously humble enough to take a back seat to allow another vocalist to do lead parts on some of the songs.

Static Impulse, now there's an album that suffered greatly from having someone else involved on vocals. Much more than DT ever had with MP. If there's any place I only want to hear JLB, it's his solo album!

[Mosh]

Yea I miss the backing vocals too, I thought MP had a bunch of really cool ideas when it came to vocal harmonies and counter-melodies.

People place way too much blame on MP for the last two albums he did with them. The rest of the band are just as guilty for pushing that direction along with him. Lets not forget who actually write the music in the band. MP was, at the very most, creative direction. If anything, it's the other guys' fault for writing subpar music.

Edit: I like BC&SL anyway. It's not very proggy and kinda heavy but I think the epics are really good, especially ANTR and TCOT. It's not my favorite album, but I enjoy it. SC is awful though.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, I'll tell you what I don't miss. "Let me introduce... My brotha!" I certainly don't miss his backups during the first verse of AROP. He really brought down a lot of those parts, IMO. And yes, ADTOE was overly simplistic vocally, but even if it was MP who was good at making the vocal parts more interesting, that doesn't mean he should've partaken in them. Harmonies are one thing, but it's those times when he just screams in the background while JLB is trying to sing, that ruined those parts.

Static Impulse, now there's an album that suffered greatly from having someone else involved on vocals. Much more than DT ever had with MP. If there's any place I only want to hear JLB, it's his solo album!

It was only a couple of the songs. I do think Impermanent Resonance was a huge improvement, and really made JLB's parts shine.

But I'd still rather listen to any song on Static Impulse than the verses of AROP or TCOT.

[XB0BX]

JLB (at times) in 2014 is the best he's been since shrimpgate

[XB0BX]

SC is awful though.

I don't agree.

[TheGreatPretender]

Yeah, SC is way better than BC&SL. I actually enjoyed MP's vocal contributions on that album.

[BlobVanDam]

Well, I'll tell you what I don't miss. "Let me introduce... My brotha!" I certainly don't miss his backups during the first verse of AROP. He really brought down a lot of those parts, IMO. And yes, ADTOE was overly simplistic vocally, but even if it was MP who was good at making the vocal parts more interesting, that doesn't mean he should've partaken in them. Harmonies are one thing, but it's those times when he just screams in the background while JLB is trying to sing, that ruined those parts.

Static Impulse, now there's an album that suffered greatly from having someone else involved on vocals. Much more than DT ever had with MP. If there's any place I only want to hear JLB, it's his solo album!

It was only a couple of the songs. I do think Impermanent Resonance was a huge improvement, and really made JLB's parts shine.

But I'd still rather listen to any song on Static Impulse than the verses of AROP or TCOT.

At least half of the songs on SI have the pig squeals. It's not just a couple of songs. It's at least as much as MP ever did with DT. And it's much more obnoxious and upfront. It totally ruins One More Time for me, which would probably otherwise be my favourite JLB solo song, if not for the ridiculous DABADABA RADABABDBDBA verses. Every single verse. MP only did verses in one song, and it was 30 seconds out of 16 minutes. Hardly worth the prog-nerd-rage it constantly gets.
IR was a huge improvement though, and incorporated them a lot better (and they were just better quality growls).

I love the verses of AROP. Another underrated song and vocal. I'm not big on the ones in TCOT, but that's mostly not because of MP's vocals, but because JLB's vocal melodies aren't strong at all in that pre-chorus.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Come on, there are no pig squeals on SI. Listen to BTBAM's first album if you want real pig squeals. (it's awesome)

[BlobVanDam]

Come on, there are no pig squeals on SI. Listen to BTBAM's first album if you want real pig squeals. (it's awesome)

And there are no growls on any of DT's albums, yet people seem to keep saying it!
I know SI isn't technically pig squeals (which are awful), but they remind me more of that than growled death vox, which are the only kind I enjoy. They're just shrieky shouting (not actual shrieks either which are also awful).
Compare that to Agony, and that little change made a huge difference for me.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Yeah, I really don't know what to call 'em. I guess they're just screams? I like them, though.

[TheGreatPretender]

I heard the term Power Screaming used before. I'd say it's as good of a term as any. And it's okay, on its own, like in ANTR. But behind JLB's vocals, it's just annoying.

[Zook]

The correct term is "tough guy vocals".

[hefdaddy42]

Call it whatever you want, I don't think it belongs in DT, and I'm glad that particular thing is gone.

And since this is the controversial opinions thread, I'll just say that I think that ANTR is one of the worst things in DT's entire catalog.  It has continued to climb down my personal chart steadily ever since it was released, to the point I almost can't listen to it.  And I'm not blaming it all on MP, don't get me wrong, but that song just doesn't work for me on any level.

[nikatapi]

Call it whatever you want, I don't think it belongs in DT, and I'm glad that particular thing is gone.

And since this is the controversial opinions thread, I'll just say that I think that ANTR is one of the worst things in DT's entire catalog.  It has continued to climb down my personal chart steadily ever since it was released, to the point I almost can't listen to it.  And I'm not blaming it all on MP, don't get me wrong, but that song just doesn't work for me on any level.

Yeah unfortunately that's the case for almost all of BC&SL for me. While i enjoyed it a lot at first, it slowly has become my least favorite DT album.

[King Postwhore]

Me personally I'd rather listen to BC&SL than SC or WDADU.

[hefdaddy42]

Me personally I'd rather listen to BC&SL than SC or WDADU.

Those are all near the bottom for me, so not really a choice I'd like to make.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

Call it whatever you want, I don't think it belongs in DT, and I'm glad that particular thing is gone.

And since this is the controversial opinions thread, I'll just say that I think that ANTR is one of the worst things in DT's entire catalog.  It has continued to climb down my personal chart steadily ever since it was released, to the point I almost can't listen to it.  And I'm not blaming it all on MP, don't get me wrong, but that song just doesn't work for me on any level.

I don't think that's all that controversial to be honest, but yeah, I agree to extent. I still like the Beautiful Agony section quite a bit, but so other many moments make me want to switch the song off long before it even ends. It's not totally irredeemable, but  it's not a DT song I think about going back to.

[tiagodon]

Call it whatever you want, I don't think it belongs in DT, and I'm glad that particular thing is gone.

And since this is the controversial opinions thread, I'll just say that I think that ANTR is one of the worst things in DT's entire catalog.  It has continued to climb down my personal chart steadily ever since it was released, to the point I almost can't listen to it.  And I'm not blaming it all on MP, don't get me wrong, but that song just doesn't work for me on any level.

It works perfectly for me. It's one of the most powerful songs of the band in my opinion. One of my favorites. I love it.

[XB0BX]

ToT 100% was influenced by and sounds like nu-metal. Anyone that disputes this is overly pedantic. It's not 100% nu-metal, of course

[TheGreatPretender]

ToT 100% was influenced by and sounds like nu-metal. Anyone that disputes this is overly pedantic. It's not 100% nu-metal, of course

I see nothing wrong with that. Although I definitely wouldn't say 100% influenced by it. There were quite a few non-nu metal elements in it, that sounded more like they were inspire by Thrash and maybe even some NWOBHM.

[KevShmev]

even if it was MP who was good at making the vocal parts more interesting, that doesn't mean he should've partaken in them. Harmonies are one thing, but it's those times when he just screams in the background while JLB is trying to sing, that ruined those parts.

This, exactly.  Portnoy might have had a good ear for when to do different things vocally, but he didn't have the voice for it, and when you had someone like him singing a lead part next to a guy with a voice like JLB, it sometimes came off as rather amateurish (see: Constant Motion).  It works a lot better in Transatlantic because a) he tends to do softer vocals with them, and b) his voice sounds better in that context since none of the guys in that band have an operatic-type voice.  Imagine someone else in the band trying to play guitar and them doing a solo section where Petrucci and this person go back and forth with soloing.  It would sound totally off since that other person wouldn't be nearly on the level that Petrucci is on.  Now, something like the first verse of The Glass Prison works because JLB's voice is distorted, so the difference is not obvious; same thing with The Dark Eternal Night, where all of Portnoy's vocals are ran through a distorted effect.  On the flip side, while that song is impossible to save because of the verses and FOREVERMORE INTO THE NIGHT BLISTERING, I can't help but wonder how much better Constant Motion's chorus would have sounded with a better singer doing the call and response with JLB.

[BlobVanDam]

There was hardly any nu-metal influence on ToT. There were the spoken vocals in HTF, and that's about it. I thought the concept of ToT was basically inspired by playing TGP and MoP on the SDOIT tour, so mostly Pantera and Metallica influences.
ToT is progressive metal, influenced by thrash with some hints of more modern metal influences, including to a tiny degree nu-metal. But it doesn't sound like nu-metal.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Yeah, I never get where the nu-metal comparisons come from..